RE: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Baptism.
- Very impressive and forceful argument
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 1:36 PM
Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Baptism.
You are entitled to your opinions and interpretation of scripture,
but I would like you to consider the following:
1. St. Paul rebukes the early Christians, not the early Fathers of
the Church. That is not to say that the early fathers were
infallible. But by the same token, the apostles and disciples of
Christ some of whom authored the books of the New Testament were not
either. We find St. Peter betraying Christ (Matt 26:69), St. James
and John seeking positions of pre-eminence (Mark 10:37), St. Thomas
expressing unbelief at the ressurection (John 20:25), St. Paul
anticipating an imminent second coming (I Cor 15:51), St. Matthew in
his zeal to proclaim Christ as the fulfiller of prophecies, seating
Christ both on a donkey and a colt on his Entry into Jerusalem (Matt
21:7, as fulfilment of Zach 9:9), other inconsistencies between the
Gospel accounts, etc. We cannot accept the New Testament as scripture
and completely disregard the teachings and traditions of the Holy
Fathers of the Church, which elaborate and interpret the word of
truth with authority.
2. The evolution of New Testament as scripture from a large body of
writings happened much after the era of the Apostles and the
Disciples. The early Fathers of the Church in the second century
accepted some of the writings as authentic part of the scripture,
rejecting many, and considering others as apocryphal. In fact, this
resulted in variant canons of the scripture varied among different
Churches. To this day, for instance, the Syriac Orthodox Church as
well other Oriental churches consider the Book of Revelation as
apocryphal and not part of the accepted canon of the New Testament.
The authenticity of Acts authored by St. Luke was of course never in
doubt. However, the point is that the very fathers you appear to
minimize were responsible for the selection of the writings that
today form what we know as the New Testament. You may argue that the
writings that made it into the canon were divinely pre-ordained to be
so, yet you cannot minimize the role of the early Fathers in shaping
what we regard as scripture today. I would caution against the rather
naive Protestant-influenced attitude of regarding scripture as the
literal word of God, interpreting verses of scripture narrowly taking
them out of the social, cultural, linguistic and historical context
in which they were authored, ignoring Patristic traditions and
reaching conclusions that were far from the intent of the authors.
3. As St. Paul says in his epistle to the Hebrews (1:1-2), "In the
past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times
and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by
his Son,..." Throughout the salvation history of mankind, God has
spoken to man. He continues to speak to us to this day; unfortunately
many of us do not strive to listen. While we pride in our
intellectual faculties and knowledge, most of us are too engrossed in
the ways of the world to hear and imbibe the Word of God with wisdom.
It is thus very meaningful that we pray in the divine liturgy to
raise Fathers of the Church who teach and interpret the word of truth
correctly. Our attitude should be one of humility and submission to
the Word of God and to the authority of the Church and its Fathers so
that we can truly hear Him as He speaks to us.
Thomas Joseph, Ph.D.
Web Master, SOR (http://sor.cua.edu)
Technical Editor, Hugoye (http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye)
--- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Rajesh Philipos" wrote:
> Dear all,
> Thank you for replying to my message. I am heartened to see that we
> for each other, especially our spiritual needs and so you took time
> answer my question.
> It might be true that infant baptism started from the 3rd century.
> I am not of the opinion that everything that the early church
> were right......
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- I have read this letter in the IOIF forum.
--- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., PAUL POTHEN <paulpothen@y...> wrote:
> Dear moderator, I am enclosing a letter send by my friend to Indian
Orthodox forum (IOF), which they were reluctant to publish. He wrote
this letter to IOF after going through many of the postings in that
forum that unnecessarily critisized the Northern Kerala Orthodox
Christians for their continued affiliation to the Syrian Orthodox
Church. Unfortunately they (IOF) didn't published the following
letter, but again & again this forum of Methran kakshi is posting
letters attacking the North Kerala Orthodox Christians in the form of
advice to them....
- This letter shows how ignorant these kottayam based methra faction
clowns are. They cannot even spell correctly the name Patriarch.
-- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., aathura thomas <aathura@y...> wrote:
>thirumeni (His Holiness Moron Mar baselios Marthoma Mathews II)..And
> Hi Paul..
> Well i belong to the ORTHODOX SYRIAN CHURCH..headed by Bawa
not the Patrughese or Jacobite Section of OSC. That should give u the
>difference..I am a christian..follower of God (The Holy Trinity). Is
> Well does that make a
there any restrictions that the members of SOCM-FORUM should be
Jacobite OSC?? Aren't we all children of God..
> Liba Thomas
> "The Lord is wonderfully good to those who wait for him & seek him"
> Do You Yahoo!?
> LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
- Dear Sir,
MM will never change.They have a aim-to annihilate the Jacobites.
If someone thinks, regarding MM ,we have victory that is mirage.
MM only created the division and the new throne.
They may take different techniques (veesham),but ultimate aim is
From: "thomas_pa1"@... [mailto:"thomas_pa1"@...]
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:46 AM
Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: first VICTORY
Very Good! I think these news papers are doing
business and they will do any marketing technique to
increase the number of readers. Revenue which comes from
subscription, advertising etc. is related to number
of readers. We cannot say 'abc' newspaper is bad and
'xyz' is good. Both survive by reporting news....
- thanks for opinion
--- thomas_pa1@... wrote: > Very Good! I think
these news papers are doing
> business and they will do any marketing technique to
> increase the number of readers. Revenue which comes
> subscription, advertising etc. is related to number
> of readers......
Permit me to rebuke you. Do not call these people "clowns," whether
or not they deserve such a title.
They have chosen to exit the Oriental Orthodox community and the body
of Christ. Let them be.
Rather, we should each dwell on our own sins, and worry about these
first. Let their actions speak for themselves, and let ours speak
I know it is easy to get frustrated when we see apostacy and
misinformation dance before our eyes, but do your best not to let it
get the best of you.
Maybe your comment was in good fun and I perceived it incorrectly,
but I think this message can apply to us all.
I think we can educate people like Liba better about the Oriental
Orthodox Christian faith without calling them names, even if they
call us names.
From the desk of the Moderator.
The mentioned word was edited during the posting of the message.
Unfortunately due to some net technical problems it appeared in
the posting. We apologise for the pain caused to the members and