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RE: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Baptism.

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  • V Thomas
    Very impressive and forceful argument Regards ... From: drthomas_joseph @indianhosting.com [mailto: drthomas_joseph @indianhosting.com] Sent: Wednesday, May
    Message 1 of 9 , May 17, 2002
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      Very impressive and forceful argument
      Regards

      -----Original Message-----
      From: "drthomas_joseph"@...
      [mailto:"drthomas_joseph"@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 1:36 PM
      To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Baptism.

      Shlomo Rajesh:

      You are entitled to your opinions and interpretation of scripture,
      but I would like you to consider the following:

      1. St. Paul rebukes the early Christians, not the early Fathers of
      the Church. That is not to say that the early fathers were
      infallible. But by the same token, the apostles and disciples of
      Christ some of whom authored the books of the New Testament were not
      either. We find St. Peter betraying Christ (Matt 26:69), St. James
      and John seeking positions of pre-eminence (Mark 10:37), St. Thomas
      expressing unbelief at the ressurection (John 20:25), St. Paul
      anticipating an imminent second coming (I Cor 15:51), St. Matthew in
      his zeal to proclaim Christ as the fulfiller of prophecies, seating
      Christ both on a donkey and a colt on his Entry into Jerusalem (Matt
      21:7, as fulfilment of Zach 9:9), other inconsistencies between the
      Gospel accounts, etc. We cannot accept the New Testament as scripture
      and completely disregard the teachings and traditions of the Holy
      Fathers of the Church, which elaborate and interpret the word of
      truth with authority.

      2. The evolution of New Testament as scripture from a large body of
      writings happened much after the era of the Apostles and the
      Disciples. The early Fathers of the Church in the second century
      accepted some of the writings as authentic part of the scripture,
      rejecting many, and considering others as apocryphal. In fact, this
      resulted in variant canons of the scripture varied among different
      Churches. To this day, for instance, the Syriac Orthodox Church as
      well other Oriental churches consider the Book of Revelation as
      apocryphal and not part of the accepted canon of the New Testament.
      The authenticity of Acts authored by St. Luke was of course never in
      doubt. However, the point is that the very fathers you appear to
      minimize were responsible for the selection of the writings that
      today form what we know as the New Testament. You may argue that the
      writings that made it into the canon were divinely pre-ordained to be
      so, yet you cannot minimize the role of the early Fathers in shaping
      what we regard as scripture today. I would caution against the rather
      naive Protestant-influenced attitude of regarding scripture as the
      literal word of God, interpreting verses of scripture narrowly taking
      them out of the social, cultural, linguistic and historical context
      in which they were authored, ignoring Patristic traditions and
      reaching conclusions that were far from the intent of the authors.

      3. As St. Paul says in his epistle to the Hebrews (1:1-2), "In the
      past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times
      and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by
      his Son,..." Throughout the salvation history of mankind, God has
      spoken to man. He continues to speak to us to this day; unfortunately
      many of us do not strive to listen. While we pride in our
      intellectual faculties and knowledge, most of us are too engrossed in
      the ways of the world to hear and imbibe the Word of God with wisdom.
      It is thus very meaningful that we pray in the divine liturgy to
      raise Fathers of the Church who teach and interpret the word of truth
      correctly. Our attitude should be one of humility and submission to
      the Word of God and to the authority of the Church and its Fathers so
      that we can truly hear Him as He speaks to us.

      Thomas Joseph, Ph.D.
      Web Master, SOR (http://sor.cua.edu)
      Technical Editor, Hugoye (http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye)



      --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Rajesh Philipos" wrote:
      > Dear all,
      >
      > Thank you for replying to my message. I am heartened to see that we
      all care
      > for each other, especially our spiritual needs and so you took time
      out to
      > answer my question.
      >
      > It might be true that infant baptism started from the 3rd century.
      However,
      > I am not of the opinion that everything that the early church
      fathers did
      > were right......



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    • thomas_pa1
      I have read this letter in the IOIF forum. -Thomas ... Orthodox forum (IOF), which they were reluctant to publish. He wrote this letter to IOF after going
      Message 2 of 9 , May 17, 2002
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        I have read this letter in the IOIF forum.

        -Thomas



        --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., PAUL POTHEN <paulpothen@y...> wrote:
        > Dear moderator, I am enclosing a letter send by my friend to Indian
        Orthodox forum (IOF), which they were reluctant to publish. He wrote
        this letter to IOF after going through many of the postings in that
        forum that unnecessarily critisized the Northern Kerala Orthodox
        Christians for their continued affiliation to the Syrian Orthodox
        Church. Unfortunately they (IOF) didn't published the following
        letter, but again & again this forum of Methran kakshi is posting
        letters attacking the North Kerala Orthodox Christians in the form of
        advice to them....
      • roymathews
        This letter shows how ignorant these kottayam based methra faction clowns are. They cannot even spell correctly the name Patriarch. regards roymathews- ...
        Message 3 of 9 , May 17, 2002
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          This letter shows how ignorant these kottayam based methra faction
          clowns are. They cannot even spell correctly the name Patriarch.

          regards
          roymathews-





          -- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., aathura thomas <aathura@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Paul..
          >
          > Well i belong to the ORTHODOX SYRIAN CHURCH..headed by Bawa
          thirumeni (His Holiness Moron Mar baselios Marthoma Mathews II)..And
          not the Patrughese or Jacobite Section of OSC. That should give u the
          answer
          >
          > Well does that make a
          difference..I am a christian..follower of God (The Holy Trinity). Is
          there any restrictions that the members of SOCM-FORUM should be
          Jacobite OSC?? Aren't we all children of God..
          >
          >
          >
          > Liba Thomas
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          -----------
          >
          > "The Lord is wonderfully good to those who wait for him & seek him"
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
        • V Thomas
          Dear Sir, MM will never change.They have a aim-to annihilate the Jacobites. If someone thinks, regarding MM ,we have victory that is mirage. MM only created
          Message 4 of 9 , May 17, 2002
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            Dear Sir,
            MM will never change.They have a aim-to annihilate the Jacobites.
            If someone thinks, regarding MM ,we have victory that is mirage.
            MM only created the division and the new throne.
            They may take different techniques (veesham),but ultimate aim is
            Same.
            Regards
            vmt


            -----Original Message-----
            From: "thomas_pa1"@... [mailto:"thomas_pa1"@...]
            Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:46 AM
            To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: first VICTORY

            Very Good! I think these news papers are doing
            business and they will do any marketing technique to
            increase the number of readers. Revenue which comes from
            subscription, advertising etc. is related to number
            of readers. We cannot say 'abc' newspaper is bad and
            'xyz' is good. Both survive by reporting news....
          • Humble Servant of Christ
            thanks for opinion ... these news papers are doing
            Message 5 of 9 , May 19, 2002
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              thanks for opinion

              --- thomas_pa1@... wrote: > Very Good! I think
              these news papers are doing
              > business and they will do any marketing technique to
              >
              > increase the number of readers. Revenue which comes
              > from
              > subscription, advertising etc. is related to number
              > of readers......
            • mfignatius
              Brother, Permit me to rebuke you. Do not call these people clowns, whether or not they deserve such a title. They have chosen to exit the Oriental Orthodox
              Message 6 of 9 , May 20, 2002
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                Brother,

                Permit me to rebuke you. Do not call these people "clowns," whether
                or not they deserve such a title.

                They have chosen to exit the Oriental Orthodox community and the body
                of Christ. Let them be.

                Rather, we should each dwell on our own sins, and worry about these
                first. Let their actions speak for themselves, and let ours speak
                for ourselves.

                I know it is easy to get frustrated when we see apostacy and
                misinformation dance before our eyes, but do your best not to let it
                get the best of you.

                Maybe your comment was in good fun and I perceived it incorrectly,
                but I think this message can apply to us all.

                I think we can educate people like Liba better about the Oriental
                Orthodox Christian faith without calling them names, even if they
                call us names.

                In Christ,
                mike

                --------------------------------------------------------------
                From the desk of the Moderator.

                The mentioned word was edited during the posting of the message.
                Unfortunately due to some net technical problems it appeared in
                the posting. We apologise for the pain caused to the members and
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