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Re: Baptism.

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  • thomas_pa1
    Dear Rajesh, In the New Testament, nothing disproves the practise of infant baptism. Show that Apostles were strictly against baptism of infants or those who
    Message 1 of 13 , May 10, 2002
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      Dear Rajesh, In the New Testament, nothing disproves the
      practise of infant baptism. Show that Apostles were strictly
      against baptism of infants or those who cannot make a decision
      of their own. If Apostles were against some practise, they will
      directly write about it.

      Here is a nice article to study:
      http://www.ephesus.com/Orthodox/InfantBaptism.html

      You think that faith is a matter of personal conviction or
      knowledge. In your terms, prerequisite for baptism is
      personal faith. This, I think, is the basis of your
      argument. Your argument is true, but only in certain situations.

      I think that personal faith is a prerequisite in certain situations,
      not in all situations. For example, if a person is grown up
      and able to make decision of his own, then personal faith and
      confession of the faith is a precondition for a valid baptism.
      Orthodox church do baptise believing adults. Muukancheril Thirumeni
      baptised many adults.

      There are many grown up people having problems with memory and
      functions of the brain. Such people cannot make a decision of their
      own. Now, if a houshold of such a person believed and decided
      to join the church through baptism, who will make the decision
      for the disabled person? Is he left alone without giving
      baptism and later communion.

      In the Orthodox church, sacraments are related to each other.
      Associated with baptism is communion. Communion is receiving Christ.
      In Orthodox Church, infants are given communion immediately after
      baptism. Thus, Christ is not restricted to any in the Church.
      Other churches does not give communion to children. They wait
      for the chrismation or baptism of the child which happens about the
      age of 7. They are effectively restricting Christ. This is a huge
      theological error.

      One thing I found interesting in the above link is that even
      founders of Protestant movement believed in the old practise
      of infant baptism:

      Of the baptism of children we hold that children ought to be
      baptized. For they belong to the promised redemption made through
      Christ, and the Church should administer it to them.
      (Martin Luther, The Smalcald Articles, Article V: Of Baptism, 1537)

      "If, by baptism, Christ intends to attest the ablution by which
      he cleanses his Church, it would seem not equitable to deny this
      attestation to infants, who are justly deemed part of the Church,
      seeing they are called heirs of the heavenly kingdom." (John Calvin,
      Institutes of the Christian Religion, 1559)

      Thus, restricting baptism to infants is a relatively new rule.
      Luther or Calvin didn't had this new rule in thier mind when they
      opposed Vatican.

      You also suggest that Apostles had hard time correcting wrong
      practises in the church. You are right. If Apostles were really
      against the practise of infant baptism, they would definitely
      write clearly that infant baptism should be avoided. But none
      of the Apostles said so. Actually church blindly followed
      Apostolic faith and kept all things they taught.

      Orthodox church didn't introduce strict dogmas on many things,
      while others later introduced lots of limitations and restrictions.
      They spend too much of time arguing with Christians on such matters,
      instead of helping people to grow spiritually. They introduce new
      dogmas to replace existing traditions. Is this the aim of Christian
      life?

      To conclude, Orthodox Church does not restrict baptism to any human
      being based on his mental capabilities. Others are saying that only
      those with the mental capabiltiy to believe and confess can receive
      baptism.

      -Thomas


      --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Rajesh Philipos" wrote:
      > Dear all,
      >
      > Thank you for replying to my message. I am heartened to see that we
      all care
      > for each other, especially our spiritual needs and so you took time
      out to
      > answer my question.
      >
      > It might be true that infant baptism started from the 3rd century.
      However,
      > I am not of the opinion that everything that the early church
      fathers did
      > were right. Otherwise, why the need for soo many letters from Paul
      to the
      > various churches correcting them. So, I do not necessarily believe
      that
      > because it was practised early on, it ought to be right.
      >
      > When I read the Acts of the Apostles, everytime I read of a baptism,
      it
      > happened only after the person believed. If the idea of infant
      baptism is
      > that the god-parents lead the infant to discipleship, then that
      makes sense.
      > But, then that is not the same baptism as mentioned in the Bible
      that always
      > took place after a person believed. I am not a scholar in the Bible
      so I
      > might be wrong. Please do not interpret my writing as being
      arrogant. I am
      > just learning now. I also do not see how a believer's infants are
      holy. God
      > says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Even
      infants,
      > born to Christians or gentiles. Each of us have to believe for
      ourselves,
      > not because our parents believed.
      >
      > Maybe, this isnt a big issue because if it was, Jesus would have
      made it
      > clear in the Bible. More importantly is our personal belief in
      Christ, that
      > he died to save me from my sins. That is what is important. I think
      if we
      > have that personal belief and follow Him, we will be saved (John
      3:16),
      > baptised as an infant or not. Baptism, to me, is a public
      affirmation of my
      > being a Christian and also in Obedience to Him (Mathew 28.19).
      >
      > Love in Christ,
      > Rajesh.
      >
      >
      > >From: "drthomas_joseph"
      > >Reply-To: SOCM-FORUM@y...
      > >To: SOCM-FORUM@y...
      > >Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Baptism.
      > >Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 10:30:18 -0000
      > >
      > >Dear Rajesh,
      > >
      > >As you have noted, the New Testament does not explicitly require or
      > >forbid infant baptism. As the Oxford Encylopaedia of the Christian
      > >Church (1997, p. 831) notes, the tradition is at least as old as
      3rd
      > >century and universally practised until 16th century when the
      > >practice was rejected by the Anabaptists.
    • SOCM Moderator
      Dear Forum Members There is an Orthodox Unity Conference in Toronto, Canada May, 2002Check this web site for details. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/gxsam111/
      Message 2 of 13 , May 10, 2002
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        Dear Forum Members

        There is an Orthodox Unity Conference in Toronto, Canada May, 2002Check this web site for details.

        http://mywebpages.comcast.net/gxsam111/



        Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here
      • Forum Moderator
        Dear Liba Forum Home Page message is self explanatory. Still we keep the freedom of speech and expressions. We believe that their are many other sources to
        Message 3 of 13 , May 11, 2002
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          Dear Liba
          Forum Home Page message is self explanatory. Still we keep the
          freedom of speech and expressions. We believe that their are many
          other sources to express the members view. If we do not allow to post
          their posting in this forum, they may seek other sources. Their they
          may be brain washed, so we do allow most of the postings with or
          without editing.
          Forum Moderator


          --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., aathura thomas wrote:
          > Hello...
          > What does SOCM-FORUM Stand for...Am confused a bit..
          > Is it anyway dedicated to The Orthodox Jacobite Church
          (Patrugheese) or The Orthodox Syrian Church..or its a Combn of
          members from both section of the church..
          > Well some info abt the Supreme Court Case,
          > Malankara Sabha Case scheduled for Wednesday, 8th May 2002 has been
          > postponed following the death of the father of Justice K G
          Balakrishnan, a member
          > of the SC Bench hearing the case.A new date will be announced
          later.However, since the the court closes
          > for summer Vacation now, it can now come up after the vacation only
          in
          > June/July.
          >
          > Regards,
          > Liba
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          -----------
          >
          > "The Lord is wonderfully good to those who wait for him & seek him"
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
        • Joshy C Abraham
          Dear Liba, SOCM - Syrian Orthodox Church (Jacobite) Members Regards, email : joshy@perime.com ... From: aathura.thomas@net-master.com
          Message 4 of 13 , May 11, 2002
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            Dear Liba,
             
            SOCM - Syrian Orthodox Church (Jacobite) Members
             

            Regards, 

            email : joshy@...

            -----Original Message-----
            From: aathura.thomas@... [mailto:aathura.thomas@...]
            Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 02:50 PM
            To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] (unknown)

            Hello...

            What does SOCM-FORUM Stand for...Am confused a bit..

            Is it anyway dedicated to The Orthodox Jacobite Church (Patrugheese) or The Orthodox Syrian Church..or its a Combn of members from both section of the church..

            Well some info abt the Supreme Court Case,

            Malankara Sabha Case scheduled for Wednesday, 8th May 2002 has been
            postponed following the death of the father of Justice K G Balakrishnan, a member
            of the SC Bench hearing the case.A new date will be announced later.However, since the the court closes
            for summer Vacation now, it can now come up after the vacation only in
            June/July.

            Regards,

            Liba



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          • MalankaraVoice.cjb.net
            Click the following links for the latest from Malankara 343rd death anniversary of Anjilimmottil Itty Thommen Kathanar (Chief Organizer of the historic
            Message 5 of 13 , May 12, 2002
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            • Thomas Daniel
              Hildegard of Bingen: ���� Antiphon for the Holy Spirit ���� The Holy Spirit is life that gives life, Moving all things. It is the root in every creature And
              Message 6 of 13 , May 14, 2002
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                Hildegard of Bingen:
                Antiphon for the Holy Spirit
                The Holy Spirit is life that gives life,
                Moving all things.
                It is the root in every creature
                And purifies all things,
                Wiping away sins,
                Anointing wounds.
                It is radiant life, worthy of praise,
                Awakening and enlivening
                All things.
                Antiphon for Divine Love
                Love
                Gives herself to all things,
                Most excellent in the depths,
                And above the stars
                Cherishing all:
                For the High King
                She has given
                The kiss of peace.
                God is the Musician
                The soul is kissed by God in its innermost regions.
                With interior yearning, grace and blessing are bestowed.
                It is a yearning to take on God's gentle yoke,
                It is a yearning to give one's self to God's way.
                The marvels of God are not brought forth from one's self.
                Rather, it is more like a Chord, a sound that is played.
                The tone does not come out of the chord itself, but rather,
                through the touch of the Musician.
                I am, of course, the lyre and harp of God's kindness!


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              • drthomas_joseph
                Shlomo Rajesh: You are entitled to your opinions and interpretation of scripture, but I would like you to consider the following: 1. St. Paul rebukes the early
                Message 7 of 13 , May 15, 2002
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                  Shlomo Rajesh:

                  You are entitled to your opinions and interpretation of scripture,
                  but I would like you to consider the following:

                  1. St. Paul rebukes the early Christians, not the early Fathers of
                  the Church. That is not to say that the early fathers were
                  infallible. But by the same token, the apostles and disciples of
                  Christ some of whom authored the books of the New Testament were not
                  either. We find St. Peter betraying Christ (Matt 26:69), St. James
                  and John seeking positions of pre-eminence (Mark 10:37), St. Thomas
                  expressing unbelief at the ressurection (John 20:25), St. Paul
                  anticipating an imminent second coming (I Cor 15:51), St. Matthew in
                  his zeal to proclaim Christ as the fulfiller of prophecies, seating
                  Christ both on a donkey and a colt on his Entry into Jerusalem (Matt
                  21:7, as fulfilment of Zach 9:9), other inconsistencies between the
                  Gospel accounts, etc. We cannot accept the New Testament as scripture
                  and completely disregard the teachings and traditions of the Holy
                  Fathers of the Church, which elaborate and interpret the word of
                  truth with authority.

                  2. The evolution of New Testament as scripture from a large body of
                  writings happened much after the era of the Apostles and the
                  Disciples. The early Fathers of the Church in the second century
                  accepted some of the writings as authentic part of the scripture,
                  rejecting many, and considering others as apocryphal. In fact, this
                  resulted in variant canons of the scripture varied among different
                  Churches. To this day, for instance, the Syriac Orthodox Church as
                  well other Oriental churches consider the Book of Revelation as
                  apocryphal and not part of the accepted canon of the New Testament.
                  The authenticity of Acts authored by St. Luke was of course never in
                  doubt. However, the point is that the very fathers you appear to
                  minimize were responsible for the selection of the writings that
                  today form what we know as the New Testament. You may argue that the
                  writings that made it into the canon were divinely pre-ordained to be
                  so, yet you cannot minimize the role of the early Fathers in shaping
                  what we regard as scripture today. I would caution against the rather
                  naive Protestant-influenced attitude of regarding scripture as the
                  literal word of God, interpreting verses of scripture narrowly taking
                  them out of the social, cultural, linguistic and historical context
                  in which they were authored, ignoring Patristic traditions and
                  reaching conclusions that were far from the intent of the authors.

                  3. As St. Paul says in his epistle to the Hebrews (1:1-2), "In the
                  past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times
                  and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by
                  his Son,..." Throughout the salvation history of mankind, God has
                  spoken to man. He continues to speak to us to this day; unfortunately
                  many of us do not strive to listen. While we pride in our
                  intellectual faculties and knowledge, most of us are too engrossed in
                  the ways of the world to hear and imbibe the Word of God with wisdom.
                  It is thus very meaningful that we pray in the divine liturgy to
                  raise Fathers of the Church who teach and interpret the word of truth
                  correctly. Our attitude should be one of humility and submission to
                  the Word of God and to the authority of the Church and its Fathers so
                  that we can truly hear Him as He speaks to us.

                  Thomas Joseph, Ph.D.
                  Web Master, SOR (http://sor.cua.edu)
                  Technical Editor, Hugoye (http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye)



                  --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Rajesh Philipos" wrote:
                  > Dear all,
                  >
                  > Thank you for replying to my message. I am heartened to see that we
                  all care
                  > for each other, especially our spiritual needs and so you took time
                  out to
                  > answer my question.
                  >
                  > It might be true that infant baptism started from the 3rd century.
                  However,
                  > I am not of the opinion that everything that the early church
                  fathers did
                  > were right......
                • MalankaraVoice.cjb.net
                  Click the following links for the latest from Malankara National Assembly of the Jacobite Syrian Christian Youth Association, between 23rd and 25th of May
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 15, 2002
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                  • PAUL POTHEN
                    Athura (liba), I would like to know to which Church you belongs to, Methran kakshi (Orthodox faction based at Kottayam ) or The Malankara Jacobite Syrian
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 15, 2002
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                      Athura (liba),

                      I would like to know to which Church you belongs to, Methran�kakshi (Orthodox faction based at Kottayam ) or The�Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church ?

                      P Paul

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: aathura.thomas@... [mailto:aathura.thomas@...]
                      Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 02:50 PM
                      To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] (unknown)

                      Hello...

                      What does SOCM-FORUM Stand for...Am confused a bit..

                      Is it anyway dedicated to The Orthodox Jacobite Church (Patrugheese) or The Orthodox Syrian Church..or its a Combn of members from both section of the church..

                    • aathura thomas
                      Hi Paul.. Well i belong to the ORTHODOX SYRIAN CHURCH..headed by Bawa thirumeni (His Holiness Moron Mar baselios Marthoma Mathews II)..And not the Patrughese
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 16, 2002
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                        Hi Paul..

                              Well i belong to the ORTHODOX SYRIAN CHURCH..headed by Bawa thirumeni (His Holiness Moron Mar baselios Marthoma Mathews II)..And not the Patrughese or Jacobite Section of OSC. That should give u the answer

                                                                     Well does that make a difference..I am a christian..follower of God (The Holy Trinity). Is there any restrictions that the members of SOCM-FORUM should be Jacobite OSC?? Aren't we all children of God..

                         

                        Liba Thomas

                         



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