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  • MalankaraVoice.cjb.net
    Click the following links for the latest from Malankara Special Prayers by the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Christians at the Kothamangalam
    Message 1 of 13 , May 8, 2002
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      Click the following links for the latest from Malankara
       

      Special  Prayers  by  the  Malankara  Jacobite  Syrian  Orthodox  Christians  at  the  Kothamangalam  Church  ended  with  'Pathimoonninmel Qurbono'

      9-May-02

      Malankara Church case scheduled for today has been postponed following the sudden death of the father of Justice K G Balakrishnan

      A  new date will be announced later

      8-May-02
       
      To read more click below
       
       
         


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    • Rajesh Philipos
      Dear all, Thank you for replying to my message. I am heartened to see that we all care for each other, especially our spiritual needs and so you took time out
      Message 2 of 13 , May 9, 2002
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        Dear all,

        Thank you for replying to my message. I am heartened to see that we all care
        for each other, especially our spiritual needs and so you took time out to
        answer my question.

        It might be true that infant baptism started from the 3rd century. However,
        I am not of the opinion that everything that the early church fathers did
        were right. Otherwise, why the need for soo many letters from Paul to the
        various churches correcting them. So, I do not necessarily believe that
        because it was practised early on, it ought to be right.

        When I read the Acts of the Apostles, everytime I read of a baptism, it
        happened only after the person believed. If the idea of infant baptism is
        that the god-parents lead the infant to discipleship, then that makes sense.
        But, then that is not the same baptism as mentioned in the Bible that always
        took place after a person believed. I am not a scholar in the Bible so I
        might be wrong. Please do not interpret my writing as being arrogant. I am
        just learning now. I also do not see how a believer's infants are holy. God
        says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Even infants,
        born to Christians or gentiles. Each of us have to believe for ourselves,
        not because our parents believed.

        Maybe, this isnt a big issue because if it was, Jesus would have made it
        clear in the Bible. More importantly is our personal belief in Christ, that
        he died to save me from my sins. That is what is important. I think if we
        have that personal belief and follow Him, we will be saved (John 3:16),
        baptised as an infant or not. Baptism, to me, is a public affirmation of my
        being a Christian and also in Obedience to Him (Mathew 28.19).

        Love in Christ,
        Rajesh.


        >From: "drthomas_joseph"
        >Reply-To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
        >To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Baptism.
        >Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 10:30:18 -0000
        >
        >Dear Rajesh,
        >
        >As you have noted, the New Testament does not explicitly require or
        >forbid infant baptism. As the Oxford Encylopaedia of the Christian
        >Church (1997, p. 831) notes, the tradition is at least as old as 3rd
        >century and universally practised until 16th century when the
        >practice was rejected by the Anabaptists.
      • aathura thomas
        Hello... What does SOCM-FORUM Stand for...Am confused a bit.. Is it anyway dedicated to The Orthodox Jacobite Church (Patrugheese) or The Orthodox Syrian
        Message 3 of 13 , May 10, 2002
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          Hello...

          ������ What does SOCM-FORUM Stand for...Am confused a bit..

          Is it anyway dedicated to The Orthodox Jacobite Church (Patrugheese) or The Orthodox Syrian Church..or its a Combn of members from both section of the church..

          Well some info abt the Supreme Court Case,

          Malankara Sabha Case scheduled for Wednesday, 8th May 2002 has been
          postponed following the death of the father of Justice K G Balakrishnan, a member
          of the SC Bench hearing the case.A new date will be announced later.However, since the the court closes
          for summer Vacation now, it can now come up after the vacation only in
          June/July.

          Regards,

          Liba



          -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          "The Lord is wonderfully good to those who wait for him & seek him"



        • thomas_pa1
          Dear Rajesh, In the New Testament, nothing disproves the practise of infant baptism. Show that Apostles were strictly against baptism of infants or those who
          Message 4 of 13 , May 10, 2002
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            Dear Rajesh, In the New Testament, nothing disproves the
            practise of infant baptism. Show that Apostles were strictly
            against baptism of infants or those who cannot make a decision
            of their own. If Apostles were against some practise, they will
            directly write about it.

            Here is a nice article to study:
            http://www.ephesus.com/Orthodox/InfantBaptism.html

            You think that faith is a matter of personal conviction or
            knowledge. In your terms, prerequisite for baptism is
            personal faith. This, I think, is the basis of your
            argument. Your argument is true, but only in certain situations.

            I think that personal faith is a prerequisite in certain situations,
            not in all situations. For example, if a person is grown up
            and able to make decision of his own, then personal faith and
            confession of the faith is a precondition for a valid baptism.
            Orthodox church do baptise believing adults. Muukancheril Thirumeni
            baptised many adults.

            There are many grown up people having problems with memory and
            functions of the brain. Such people cannot make a decision of their
            own. Now, if a houshold of such a person believed and decided
            to join the church through baptism, who will make the decision
            for the disabled person? Is he left alone without giving
            baptism and later communion.

            In the Orthodox church, sacraments are related to each other.
            Associated with baptism is communion. Communion is receiving Christ.
            In Orthodox Church, infants are given communion immediately after
            baptism. Thus, Christ is not restricted to any in the Church.
            Other churches does not give communion to children. They wait
            for the chrismation or baptism of the child which happens about the
            age of 7. They are effectively restricting Christ. This is a huge
            theological error.

            One thing I found interesting in the above link is that even
            founders of Protestant movement believed in the old practise
            of infant baptism:

            Of the baptism of children we hold that children ought to be
            baptized. For they belong to the promised redemption made through
            Christ, and the Church should administer it to them.
            (Martin Luther, The Smalcald Articles, Article V: Of Baptism, 1537)

            "If, by baptism, Christ intends to attest the ablution by which
            he cleanses his Church, it would seem not equitable to deny this
            attestation to infants, who are justly deemed part of the Church,
            seeing they are called heirs of the heavenly kingdom." (John Calvin,
            Institutes of the Christian Religion, 1559)

            Thus, restricting baptism to infants is a relatively new rule.
            Luther or Calvin didn't had this new rule in thier mind when they
            opposed Vatican.

            You also suggest that Apostles had hard time correcting wrong
            practises in the church. You are right. If Apostles were really
            against the practise of infant baptism, they would definitely
            write clearly that infant baptism should be avoided. But none
            of the Apostles said so. Actually church blindly followed
            Apostolic faith and kept all things they taught.

            Orthodox church didn't introduce strict dogmas on many things,
            while others later introduced lots of limitations and restrictions.
            They spend too much of time arguing with Christians on such matters,
            instead of helping people to grow spiritually. They introduce new
            dogmas to replace existing traditions. Is this the aim of Christian
            life?

            To conclude, Orthodox Church does not restrict baptism to any human
            being based on his mental capabilities. Others are saying that only
            those with the mental capabiltiy to believe and confess can receive
            baptism.

            -Thomas


            --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Rajesh Philipos" wrote:
            > Dear all,
            >
            > Thank you for replying to my message. I am heartened to see that we
            all care
            > for each other, especially our spiritual needs and so you took time
            out to
            > answer my question.
            >
            > It might be true that infant baptism started from the 3rd century.
            However,
            > I am not of the opinion that everything that the early church
            fathers did
            > were right. Otherwise, why the need for soo many letters from Paul
            to the
            > various churches correcting them. So, I do not necessarily believe
            that
            > because it was practised early on, it ought to be right.
            >
            > When I read the Acts of the Apostles, everytime I read of a baptism,
            it
            > happened only after the person believed. If the idea of infant
            baptism is
            > that the god-parents lead the infant to discipleship, then that
            makes sense.
            > But, then that is not the same baptism as mentioned in the Bible
            that always
            > took place after a person believed. I am not a scholar in the Bible
            so I
            > might be wrong. Please do not interpret my writing as being
            arrogant. I am
            > just learning now. I also do not see how a believer's infants are
            holy. God
            > says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Even
            infants,
            > born to Christians or gentiles. Each of us have to believe for
            ourselves,
            > not because our parents believed.
            >
            > Maybe, this isnt a big issue because if it was, Jesus would have
            made it
            > clear in the Bible. More importantly is our personal belief in
            Christ, that
            > he died to save me from my sins. That is what is important. I think
            if we
            > have that personal belief and follow Him, we will be saved (John
            3:16),
            > baptised as an infant or not. Baptism, to me, is a public
            affirmation of my
            > being a Christian and also in Obedience to Him (Mathew 28.19).
            >
            > Love in Christ,
            > Rajesh.
            >
            >
            > >From: "drthomas_joseph"
            > >Reply-To: SOCM-FORUM@y...
            > >To: SOCM-FORUM@y...
            > >Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Baptism.
            > >Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 10:30:18 -0000
            > >
            > >Dear Rajesh,
            > >
            > >As you have noted, the New Testament does not explicitly require or
            > >forbid infant baptism. As the Oxford Encylopaedia of the Christian
            > >Church (1997, p. 831) notes, the tradition is at least as old as
            3rd
            > >century and universally practised until 16th century when the
            > >practice was rejected by the Anabaptists.
          • SOCM Moderator
            Dear Forum Members There is an Orthodox Unity Conference in Toronto, Canada May, 2002Check this web site for details. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/gxsam111/
            Message 5 of 13 , May 10, 2002
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              Dear Forum Members

              There is an Orthodox Unity Conference in Toronto, Canada May, 2002Check this web site for details.

              http://mywebpages.comcast.net/gxsam111/



              Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here
            • Forum Moderator
              Dear Liba Forum Home Page message is self explanatory. Still we keep the freedom of speech and expressions. We believe that their are many other sources to
              Message 6 of 13 , May 11, 2002
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                Dear Liba
                Forum Home Page message is self explanatory. Still we keep the
                freedom of speech and expressions. We believe that their are many
                other sources to express the members view. If we do not allow to post
                their posting in this forum, they may seek other sources. Their they
                may be brain washed, so we do allow most of the postings with or
                without editing.
                Forum Moderator


                --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., aathura thomas wrote:
                > Hello...
                > What does SOCM-FORUM Stand for...Am confused a bit..
                > Is it anyway dedicated to The Orthodox Jacobite Church
                (Patrugheese) or The Orthodox Syrian Church..or its a Combn of
                members from both section of the church..
                > Well some info abt the Supreme Court Case,
                > Malankara Sabha Case scheduled for Wednesday, 8th May 2002 has been
                > postponed following the death of the father of Justice K G
                Balakrishnan, a member
                > of the SC Bench hearing the case.A new date will be announced
                later.However, since the the court closes
                > for summer Vacation now, it can now come up after the vacation only
                in
                > June/July.
                >
                > Regards,
                > Liba
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                -----------
                >
                > "The Lord is wonderfully good to those who wait for him & seek him"
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
              • Joshy C Abraham
                Dear Liba, SOCM - Syrian Orthodox Church (Jacobite) Members Regards, email : joshy@perime.com ... From: aathura.thomas@net-master.com
                Message 7 of 13 , May 11, 2002
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                  Dear Liba,
                   
                  SOCM - Syrian Orthodox Church (Jacobite) Members
                   

                  Regards, 

                  email : joshy@...

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: aathura.thomas@... [mailto:aathura.thomas@...]
                  Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 02:50 PM
                  To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] (unknown)

                  Hello...

                  What does SOCM-FORUM Stand for...Am confused a bit..

                  Is it anyway dedicated to The Orthodox Jacobite Church (Patrugheese) or The Orthodox Syrian Church..or its a Combn of members from both section of the church..

                  Well some info abt the Supreme Court Case,

                  Malankara Sabha Case scheduled for Wednesday, 8th May 2002 has been
                  postponed following the death of the father of Justice K G Balakrishnan, a member
                  of the SC Bench hearing the case.A new date will be announced later.However, since the the court closes
                  for summer Vacation now, it can now come up after the vacation only in
                  June/July.

                  Regards,

                  Liba



                  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  "The Lord is wonderfully good to those who wait for him & seek him"





                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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                • MalankaraVoice.cjb.net
                  Click the following links for the latest from Malankara 343rd death anniversary of Anjilimmottil Itty Thommen Kathanar (Chief Organizer of the historic
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 12, 2002
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                    Click the following links for the latest from Malankara
                     
                     
                    To read more click below
                     
                     
                       


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                  • Thomas Daniel
                    Hildegard of Bingen: ���� Antiphon for the Holy Spirit ���� The Holy Spirit is life that gives life, Moving all things. It is the root in every creature And
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 14, 2002
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                      Hildegard of Bingen:
                      Antiphon for the Holy Spirit
                      The Holy Spirit is life that gives life,
                      Moving all things.
                      It is the root in every creature
                      And purifies all things,
                      Wiping away sins,
                      Anointing wounds.
                      It is radiant life, worthy of praise,
                      Awakening and enlivening
                      All things.
                      Antiphon for Divine Love
                      Love
                      Gives herself to all things,
                      Most excellent in the depths,
                      And above the stars
                      Cherishing all:
                      For the High King
                      She has given
                      The kiss of peace.
                      God is the Musician
                      The soul is kissed by God in its innermost regions.
                      With interior yearning, grace and blessing are bestowed.
                      It is a yearning to take on God's gentle yoke,
                      It is a yearning to give one's self to God's way.
                      The marvels of God are not brought forth from one's self.
                      Rather, it is more like a Chord, a sound that is played.
                      The tone does not come out of the chord itself, but rather,
                      through the touch of the Musician.
                      I am, of course, the lyre and harp of God's kindness!


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                    • drthomas_joseph
                      Shlomo Rajesh: You are entitled to your opinions and interpretation of scripture, but I would like you to consider the following: 1. St. Paul rebukes the early
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 15, 2002
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                        Shlomo Rajesh:

                        You are entitled to your opinions and interpretation of scripture,
                        but I would like you to consider the following:

                        1. St. Paul rebukes the early Christians, not the early Fathers of
                        the Church. That is not to say that the early fathers were
                        infallible. But by the same token, the apostles and disciples of
                        Christ some of whom authored the books of the New Testament were not
                        either. We find St. Peter betraying Christ (Matt 26:69), St. James
                        and John seeking positions of pre-eminence (Mark 10:37), St. Thomas
                        expressing unbelief at the ressurection (John 20:25), St. Paul
                        anticipating an imminent second coming (I Cor 15:51), St. Matthew in
                        his zeal to proclaim Christ as the fulfiller of prophecies, seating
                        Christ both on a donkey and a colt on his Entry into Jerusalem (Matt
                        21:7, as fulfilment of Zach 9:9), other inconsistencies between the
                        Gospel accounts, etc. We cannot accept the New Testament as scripture
                        and completely disregard the teachings and traditions of the Holy
                        Fathers of the Church, which elaborate and interpret the word of
                        truth with authority.

                        2. The evolution of New Testament as scripture from a large body of
                        writings happened much after the era of the Apostles and the
                        Disciples. The early Fathers of the Church in the second century
                        accepted some of the writings as authentic part of the scripture,
                        rejecting many, and considering others as apocryphal. In fact, this
                        resulted in variant canons of the scripture varied among different
                        Churches. To this day, for instance, the Syriac Orthodox Church as
                        well other Oriental churches consider the Book of Revelation as
                        apocryphal and not part of the accepted canon of the New Testament.
                        The authenticity of Acts authored by St. Luke was of course never in
                        doubt. However, the point is that the very fathers you appear to
                        minimize were responsible for the selection of the writings that
                        today form what we know as the New Testament. You may argue that the
                        writings that made it into the canon were divinely pre-ordained to be
                        so, yet you cannot minimize the role of the early Fathers in shaping
                        what we regard as scripture today. I would caution against the rather
                        naive Protestant-influenced attitude of regarding scripture as the
                        literal word of God, interpreting verses of scripture narrowly taking
                        them out of the social, cultural, linguistic and historical context
                        in which they were authored, ignoring Patristic traditions and
                        reaching conclusions that were far from the intent of the authors.

                        3. As St. Paul says in his epistle to the Hebrews (1:1-2), "In the
                        past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times
                        and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by
                        his Son,..." Throughout the salvation history of mankind, God has
                        spoken to man. He continues to speak to us to this day; unfortunately
                        many of us do not strive to listen. While we pride in our
                        intellectual faculties and knowledge, most of us are too engrossed in
                        the ways of the world to hear and imbibe the Word of God with wisdom.
                        It is thus very meaningful that we pray in the divine liturgy to
                        raise Fathers of the Church who teach and interpret the word of truth
                        correctly. Our attitude should be one of humility and submission to
                        the Word of God and to the authority of the Church and its Fathers so
                        that we can truly hear Him as He speaks to us.

                        Thomas Joseph, Ph.D.
                        Web Master, SOR (http://sor.cua.edu)
                        Technical Editor, Hugoye (http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye)



                        --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Rajesh Philipos" wrote:
                        > Dear all,
                        >
                        > Thank you for replying to my message. I am heartened to see that we
                        all care
                        > for each other, especially our spiritual needs and so you took time
                        out to
                        > answer my question.
                        >
                        > It might be true that infant baptism started from the 3rd century.
                        However,
                        > I am not of the opinion that everything that the early church
                        fathers did
                        > were right......
                      • MalankaraVoice.cjb.net
                        Click the following links for the latest from Malankara National Assembly of the Jacobite Syrian Christian Youth Association, between 23rd and 25th of May
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 15, 2002
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                          Click the following links for the latest from Malankara
                           
                           
                          To read more click below
                           
                           
                             


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                        • PAUL POTHEN
                          Athura (liba), I would like to know to which Church you belongs to, Methran kakshi (Orthodox faction based at Kottayam ) or The Malankara Jacobite Syrian
                          Message 12 of 13 , May 15, 2002
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                            Athura (liba),

                            I would like to know to which Church you belongs to, Methran�kakshi (Orthodox faction based at Kottayam ) or The�Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church ?

                            P Paul

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: aathura.thomas@... [mailto:aathura.thomas@...]
                            Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 02:50 PM
                            To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] (unknown)

                            Hello...

                            What does SOCM-FORUM Stand for...Am confused a bit..

                            Is it anyway dedicated to The Orthodox Jacobite Church (Patrugheese) or The Orthodox Syrian Church..or its a Combn of members from both section of the church..

                          • aathura thomas
                            Hi Paul.. Well i belong to the ORTHODOX SYRIAN CHURCH..headed by Bawa thirumeni (His Holiness Moron Mar baselios Marthoma Mathews II)..And not the Patrughese
                            Message 13 of 13 , May 16, 2002
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                              Hi Paul..

                                    Well i belong to the ORTHODOX SYRIAN CHURCH..headed by Bawa thirumeni (His Holiness Moron Mar baselios Marthoma Mathews II)..And not the Patrughese or Jacobite Section of OSC. That should give u the answer

                                                                           Well does that make a difference..I am a christian..follower of God (The Holy Trinity). Is there any restrictions that the members of SOCM-FORUM should be Jacobite OSC?? Aren't we all children of God..

                               

                              Liba Thomas

                               



                              -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              "The Lord is wonderfully good to those who wait for him & seek him"



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