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Re: Shalmoosa of HH Mor Augen I of Blessed Memory

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  • Manoj George
    Dear Ronnie, Again let me make it clear that the church feud is not that complicated as this whole discussion has made it seem. The facts are there in black
    Message 1 of 1859 , Sep 8, 2005
      Dear Ronnie,

      Again let me make it clear that the church feud is not that complicated as this whole discussion has made it seem. The facts are there in black and white. But again the dispute comes when these facts are interpreted depending on one's affiliations. You are free to choose whatever you think is right. But my only request has been that, if at the end of the whole discussion , if you have seen the truth, and if that truth does not conform to your viewepoint, you should be bold enough to accept that you were wrong. In malayalam we have this saying ' Veenniduth kidannu uruluga '. This should not be the case. In short, the arguments should not be just for the sake of it.

      We do welcome you to raise your questions and doubts regarding the Syrian Orthodox church on this Forum. I am sure our learned members will be able to give you convincing answers. We will be able to provide you with convincing answers because we are sure about what we argue. We are not writing here to justify our actions as has been the case with IOC Historians. You just ask a simple doubt about IOC and our renowned IOC HIStorian will take you on a world tour before finally putting all the blame for each and every problem the church is facing today on the Patriarchs of Antioch. We have no reason to be that desperate because we believe in what we write and we write what we believe in.

      There is no problem in your church changing its name to Indian Orthodox Church or Indian Israel or whatever it is. But again the ambiguity is the continued usage of the term Orthodox Syrian church in the constitution and the court cases. Why is there a lack of uniformity ? Or is it to take the leverage of the word ' Syrian ' to claim our churches in the courts ? I am leaving it to your judgement. This morning I was chatting with an IOC friend. He asks what is wrong in us being autocephalos ? We dont have any problem in you being autocephalos or independent or indigenous or whatever you may like to call it. But Please leave us alone. Please dont drag us to the courts . Please do not close our churches. Please allow our dead to be buried peacefully. Please do not have our people beaten up by Police. Please do not try to block the visit of our spiritual head. Please do not spread rumours and allegations against our spiritual leaders . I dont think we are asking for too much. Or is it that the very existence of your church depends on all the above mentioned factors? If that is the case how can it be called a christian church? Again you can decide for yourself.

      I did not know that just because the UAE and American dioceses are directly under the Patriarch it meant that money is being siphoned off to Syria. This is again in keeping with the traditions of the church. When Mor Augen was ordained as Catholicose he was for India and the east. Just see below a passage taken from http://sor.co.edu

      "It was decided that the headquarters of the Maphryono should be in India and that the jurisdiction of the Maphrianate is limited to India and to the East of India only." - Damascus Patriarchal Magazine, 3rd year, 1964, No. 21; pp. 6&7"

      This was what was agreed upon in 1964. So it is only canonical for the UAE and US dioceses to be under the Patriarch. And again the Patriarch does not excersise his authority directly over these parishes. It is done through canonically ordained Metropolitans. And please, if you have any details of property and money being taken to syria please do put it on the Forum. We also would like to see those details.

      Though you may not like it... let me take you a bit back into the history. PLease do go through this with an unbiased mind...

      Just let us look at this issue impartially. Vattasseril Thirumeni was ordained by HH Mor Abdedaloho Patriarch. Hope there is no confusion here. If he was to be ordained by Mor Abdedaloho and not by Mor Abdel Messaiah... then it should have been bcos Mor Abdedaloho was considered as the rightful Patriarch and not the other way round. And quotings from Malankara Edavaka Panchankam of that time also points to this fact. Now when the treasury key issue was raised and there was rift between the Malankara Metropoilitan and the co-trustees , we all know it was bcos Vattasseril thirumeni wanted to handle the treasury all by himself which was a violation of the traditions followed until then and it was an unilateral decision by him. Hope you will agree with me on this point also. Now the rift was between the Malankara Metropolitan himself and the co-trustees. They had to look up to the higher authority who in this case was the reigning Patriarch HH Mor Abdedaloho. So was it wrong on the part of the Patriarch to point out the mistake on the part of Vattasseril thirumeni ? Remember this was the same Patriarch who ordained vattasseril thirumeni. Now if Vattasseril thirumeni bcos of his stubborn nature did rebel against the patriarch for not supporting his line of argument, is the Patriarch to be blamed?

      Let us imagine a different situation . If the Patriarch would have supported Vattasseril thirumeni on this would'nt the history have been different ? Would we have heard the autocephaly, independent church, Indian Orthodox church, St. Thomas throne and all these mindless court cases ? I firmly believe no.

      So Ronnie, we have been trying time and again to make you understand that you are in a wrong side. Do you want to be a part of a church who have dragged their brothers to the court , have closed down churches, have spread all sorts of lies to justify their actions and have no shame to resort to any unchristian acts just to justify their
      existence? Please do see the truth and come back to the mother church. We would be more than happy to welcome you back into our fold.

      Best Regards
      Manoj George
      Member ID 1309
    • Mark Sadek
      CHRIST IS RISEN! TRULY HE IS RISEN! If God had not been incarnate upon earth, if He had not made us godly, if He had not taught us in His Own person how to
      Message 1859 of 1859 , Apr 23 5:16 PM
        CHRIST IS RISEN! TRULY HE IS RISEN!

        "If God had not been incarnate upon earth, if He had not made us godly, if He had not taught us in His Own person how to live, what to hope for and expect, if He had not pointed out to us another perfect and eternal life, if He had not suffered and died and risen from the dead - then we should still have had some reason to live, as we all now live - that is to mostly lead a carnal, earthly life."

        St. John of Kronstadt, My Life in Christ.

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        "But I am poor and needy; Make haste to me, O God! You are my help and my deliverer; O Lord, do not delay."  Psalm 70:5

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        The Bible reading for the 16th of Baramoudah, April 24, is: 
        31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. (John 3:31-36)
        Martyrdom of St. Antipas, Bishop of Pergamos.

        The Bible reading for the 17th of Baramoudah, April 25, is: John 5:22-24
        Martyrdom of St. James the Apostle, brother of St. John the Apostle.

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