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Re: The Quest for Peace

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  • Kurian Mannicherry
    Dear Dn i would like to comment on some issues you raised here I was extremely overjoyed after hearing the responses of many of my dear and respected friends.
    Message 1 of 3369 , Jun 6, 2005
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      Dear Dn
      i would like to comment on some issues you raised here

      I was extremely overjoyed after hearing the responses of many of my
      dear and respected friends. Although many of the responses were
      quite typical,there were some that unexpectedly crossed ethical
      boundaries, for example someone suggested my affiliation with the
      persecution of thousands of Syrian Orthodox Christians.

      **** most of SOC forum memebrs follow the docrine
      and teaching of ancinet church recived from holy fathers not greedy
      man maid constitusion possibly formed by some expert lawyers(who may
      not even X'ns),thats why the responses are typical because they
      follow the truth regardless the sufering.When you say about crosing
      boundaries i am sure the person certainly didnt mean you are
      personaly responsable for X'n persecution;but every member of IOC
      church are one way persecuting SOC by supporting your leaders to
      mentaly torture us by closing our churchs,taking our rights away and
      causing troubles in funeral services***

      It is interesting to find certain obscure connections, but in the
      spirit of constructive debate, such wild comparisons should be
      avoided for the longevity and health of such discussions.
      > After submitting my last posting, many of my brothers in the IOC
      questioned my motives, and many stated that such postings were a
      waste of time, and would never lead to peace. I am sure that simply
      writing will not lead us anywhere, but I hope this can at least
      spark some sort of positive movement towards peace in the Malankara

      ******I must appreciate your intension (if its true) but again
      even a dn only have a distant hope about this peace what about lay
      The only hope is peace(but not false union again) and the only way
      forward to it is bring your leaders to true X'nity(thats include
      dont try to close Lords churchs,pay respect to fellow human regarles
      their faith,dont take some once wealth,be happy with what you got
      dont try to grap from others,accept the truth,accept the great faith
      of Parumala Thirumany (not just using his name for fame and
      money),dont teach lie to own people,a good shepherd will only lead
      his sheep to peace,love and truth)*****

      I know that as humans, because each and every one of us is not
      perfect, we may disagree and agree on certain things. However, as
      Christians, we are called to strive for perfection, or strive to
      reflect Christ in our actions.

      *****'Yes you are right none of us are perfect
      reflect Christ in your action by trying to avoid clashes and not
      filing cases against thives of malankara church,not causing troubles
      of swinging Bishops ;SOC are showing Christ in their action.So it
      may be better you put this requist in IOC forum or may be even good
      idea to send a copy to IOC synod and managemnet commattie(kannulvan
      kanattu cheviullvan kekattu) if IOC leadres lost both then even God
      cant help them.*****

      We are faced with a dilemma that has crossed every sea, and has
      seeped into every home, and in every mind, both young and old. Do
      we not think that the story of how our two groups came to a peaceful
      solution can spread that same distance? I think we owe it to
      ourselves, our families, our future, and simply our mission towards
      leading a Christ-like life, that we can come together, and at least
      discuss our differences, and set an example of how peace should be

      i hope your saying about IOC not including SOC.SOC
      memebrs isnt faced with a dilemma we are very clear about this issue
      we will follow the Throne of Antioch,we will follow the teaching of
      our fathers (not the modern independent church follows) we follows
      the cannon laws(not just man maid constitutions).
      Our future yes SOC have a strong leadership,our youth will grow in
      Christ we will teach them to forgive,we wont teach them to close
      church ,file cases ,steel others wealth.we wil teach them to live in
      harmony be happy with our price less faith not the wealth.Ofcourse
      we will teach them to defend our faith too but in X'n way.
      Discuuss our differences
      good point may take long time to discuss all as the
      difference is bit more than what you think.( or can be simple in one
      word TRUTH AND GREEADY)*****

      In America, we have been blessed with so many opportunities, and at
      least the members in this continent can come together for the sake
      of peace. So, if there is one idea that I can share, it is the hope
      that at least once a year, the youth of both our churches can come
      together for a joint, ecumenical conference.

      **** Ecumenical conference
      I thought Ecumenical confeence mean conference between two church(i
      may be wrong currect me if i am)
      if so how can we have ecumenical conference when IOC do not accept
      the exisistance of SOC in India( i dont know they have a diffrent
      view in US)***

      > However, I know such dreams cannot be materialized because of many
      actions that have been taken by my own church leadership. I
      apologize if our leaders have hurt you in any way.

      **** I am glad at leat one member of IOC accepted many
      actions taken by IOC leadership was wrong,if your apolgy is sinsere
      i am sure SOC will be glad to accept,but what can we do when your
      leadreship still dont accept it. ***

      Our leaders have been entrusted with a great, yet complex

      ****yes they have a very complex responsibilty.But great its
      is it a great resposibilty to split church,causing somany other non
      x'an practices(i dont want to repeat it again and again as i
      mentioned it earlier)***

      They are human beings, they are Christians.

      ****(x'ans ? x'ns who dont follow christ?)***

      It is our responsibility to treat them in a respectful, Christian

      *****I am sure SOC is treating them in ax'n manner as we still
      follow our ancient teachings.****

      I have taken no part in the administrative actions of this Diocese,
      and of the church at large. I am writing in hopes, not of changing
      our leaders, but in hopes of finding the few out there, who are
      willing to stand for peace, and will not accept any agreement unless
      it will lead to the eventual peace between our churches in

      *****I hope the same may God have mercy on IOC to bring some
      leadres who follow Christ,be able to identify and accept the their
      previous leaders mistakes.And hopefully they bring peace between
      these two churcs( IOC and SOC) not trying to bring a false untiy to
      controle moe wealth.*******

      If we cannot even agree on a middle ground, then unfortunately I
      cannot openly say that we are making a Christian-like attempt for

      ******You keep sayng about this middle ground can
      you tell me some middile ground about faith so can get an idea what
      you mean.Its a matter of faith for SOC so its not possible to bring
      a middle ground in many issues in this split,but it may be easy for
      IOC as its not a matter of faith rthaer its all about taking
      controle of church wealth*****

      > Now, for the sake of good debate, I am going to offer a few notes
      on which we can all ponder:
      > What about St. Peter's throne? I do not think the IOC has ever
      questioned the doctrine of Petrine supremacy, because if someone
      does, they are wrong; furthermore, we acknowledge that the successor
      of St. Peter has the highest seat when the heads of our two churches
      meet. Although the IOC believe in it, the ORIENTAL ORTHODOX
      CHURCHES do not believe in such. If they did, then the Pope of the
      Coptic Church, the successor of St. Mark, would not have the highest
      seat in a meeting of the OO hierarchs (FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW,
      MEET.) So, as far as I am concerned, the IOC is the only church
      that believes in this among our family of churches. In fact, when
      the heads of the Orthodox Churches (both EO and OO) meet with the
      Pope of Rome, it is written that the Pope should be given the
      highest honor. This was because Rome was the capital of the empire
      in the past, and not because the Pope of Rome was the successor of
      St. Peter.

      **** Yes IOC never questioned it but never bothred to
      follow it thats all.Yousay any one who queston the supremacy St
      Peters Thone is wrong then your Catholicose himself and your church
      in all is wrong as they argued in suprem court of India that the
      ptriarch and the catholicose are equal( but even the non x'an suprem
      court judges refused to accept that)
      And about the seat of Patriarch if you still belive and follow
      against the teaching of cannons,your own constitution and suprem
      court judgmnet (that the Malankara church is an integral part of
      Universal church)and keep saying malankara church(IOC) is an
      idependant,selfsustained church formed by St Thomas and have no
      relationship with Throne of Antioch appart from sister church
      But just remind you what was the comment of IOc when HH
      visited in 2000,i will try my best to transalate it into english
      The patriach of Syrian church who seated in Damascus
      the capital city of Syria is visiting some churchs in kerala.
      Thats your consept about HH .IOC and SOC during the holy service in
      first thubthen prace HH as follows
      Lokathintt nalubhaganglilumuulla devathinta vishuda
      sbhaye maychu bharikunna,devathal nilanirthappettu porunna
      shubbimanum behumnapetavnumaya nummuda pathircsay moran mor Ignthiose
      dont you think there is great differnce between these two
      concepts.about Pariarch of Alexendria from the begining there
      patriarch where equal and there is a concept these three
      patriachate thorone where estblished by St Peter to funtion
      togther,equaly in a hloy trinity relation.
      If this was the answer to my questions St Peters throne 'Is it not a
      matter of faith' i did ask you few other questions too but you didnt
      seems to be checked any of them or you did and but you couldnt find
      any clear answer for those questions****

      > What is wrong with the faith of the IOC?
      > We believe in the three ecumenical synods, that of Nicea,
      Constantinople, and Ephesus, and the decisions that were made
      there. This is what makes both the IOC and SOC, orthodox. In fact,
      Fr. Dr. V. C. Samuel is the main authority on the Council of
      Chalcedon in the last few centuries. If anyone wished to even begin
      to understand Christology, they cannot do it without the works of
      Fr. Dr. V. C. Samuel. We are grateful for the many gifts that the
      SOC has given us, especially mentionable by name, Fr. V. C. Samuel
      and Mar Paulos Gregorios. We are not only grateful, but the rest of
      Ecumenical Orthodoxy is grateful also. Our heads are held up high,
      as we enter into esteemed, prestigious, and influential
      institutions, such as Oxford, Yale, Harvard, and St. Vladimir's, and
      we hear the words of our dear Indian fathers being uttered in the
      halls and classrooms of these hallowed places. It only makes me
      proud to hear people refer to our church as the church of Fr. V. C.
      Samuel and Mar Paulos Gregorios.
      > What is wrong with the faith of IOC?
      > The majority of the IOC priests are educated in Orthodoxy. I can
      say with all honesty that some of the SOC metropolitans have
      received their Orthodox ethos at our Old Seminary in Kottayam like:
      Mar Yuhannon Philexenos, Mar Themothios Thomas, Mar Markos Kurilos,
      and the Very Rev. Fr. Dr. Adai Jacob (Principal of Udaigiri
      Seminary). Remember, these are all qualified high priests. The top
      educated leaders of your church studied under the "heretics." One
      can certainly appreciate the irony.

      ****There is not much wrong with IOC faith appart from
      they are relectant follow it in a x'n way,and oriental orthdox
      churchs do not follow national church concept IOC is based on
      independent Indian church ( i am an Indian and proud of it but i
      dont think church have geographical or political boundareis)***

      > Old Seminary is the minimum qualification for our Priests.
      Furthermore, Ninety percent of our priests in America have studied
      at Old Seminary in Kottayam. Many go on and continue with their
      theological education at places such as St. Vladimir's Seminary,
      known for its Orthodoxy. We have at least twenty graduates from St.
      Vladimir's, and including six students that are currently studying
      there. Many of these students have or will graduate with their
      MDiv's, MTh's, and DMin's. In fact, for any of our deacons to
      receive the order of Yaufedkono (Sub-deacon), they must have a
      minimum of a MDiv. Many other SOC leaders have studied in this
      Seminary including Mar Theethos Yeldho, the current Metropolitan of
      the Malankara Arch Diocese, and Rabban Fr. Edyp Aydin. Many bishops
      of the SOC such as Mar Cyril Aprem Karim and Very Rev. Fr. John Meno
      have affiliations with St. Vladimir's.
      > What is wrong with the faith of the IOC?
      > Many say that we should never pray through the intercession of
      Paurmala Thiurmani because he himself swore that he would never
      associate with someone who spoke against Antioch. Many of us know
      that Vattaseril Thirumani and Catholicos Geevarghese II, which our
      SOC brethren have respectfully called "Vridthan Punnoose", were
      Parumala Gregorios Thirumani's beloved students. Vattaserril
      Thirumani was an instrumental figure in establishing the freedom of
      the Church in India. It is not proper to use Parumala Thiurmani's
      name in this argument because the split happened ten years after his
      earthly demise. Although you claim that Parumala Thirumani has
      cursed our church and our people, we have seen many miracles happen
      in his name for the IOC people. If you claim that it is the prince
      of demons that is performing these miracles, how can satan drive out
      satan? How can good be done in the name of satan?

      ****You keep saying about middile ground and unity of
      church and at the same time pracing people who splited the church i
      dont understand this.And tell me what freedom IOC have which SOC in
      India do not have.Is it the throne of St Thomas if so where was it
      hidden for 1972 years,why even the most schollors and saints of
      malnkara church including Parumala Thirumany didnt find it.****

      > It was not any Patriarch of Antioch that started the church in
      India. Although we are grateful for the ardent and dilligent
      support of the church leaders in Syria, we will continue to pray for
      them, and accept the Patriarch of Antioch as the supreme spiritual
      head, subject to the provisions of the constitution of the Malankara
      Orthodox Church.

      *****SOC never claimed any patriach started church in India
      infact church all over the world started by appostles or their
      followers but being St Peter is the first patriach of Antioch and St
      Thomas allso accepted the Petrine Supremacy the church worked
      togther same as the church all over the world till 4th century.And
      canon clearly says about who is the head of eastern churh.If you
      rather prefer to follow your constuion made by you amened by you
      followed by you its your choice we will follow the cannons made by
      divine spirit of holy fathers and their great councils*****

      Kurian Mannicherry
      Member ID 1019
    • SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
      Dear honorable members Greetings in HIS name To keep the forum debate s authenticity, we the moderators of this forum, have decided to implement a new
      Message 3369 of 3369 , Oct 1 5:43 AM
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        Dear honorable members

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