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Re: Fwd: Article- Oriental Consanguinity (History)

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  • drthomas_joseph
    I would like to point out that Mor Baselius Yaldo was not a Catholicos but a Maphryono--two entirely distinct positions. The Catholicos of the East whose seat
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 7, 2002
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      I would like to point out that Mor Baselius Yaldo was not a
      Catholicos but a Maphryono--two entirely distinct positions.

      The Catholicos of the East whose seat was in Seleucia-Ctesiphon (and
      later Baghdad) was the primate of the Church of the East in Persia.
      Divided from the rest of Christendom in the Roman empire it did not
      participate in the ecumenical Synods but accepted those of Nicaea and
      Constantinople and thus the spiritual authority of the Patriarch of
      Antioch until the end of the 5th century. As a church in the Persian
      empire, it never was under the temporal jurisdiction of the Patriarch
      of Antioch. The succession of the Catholicos continues today in the
      Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East.

      The Maphryono (lit. "one who bears fruit" or "consecrator") on the
      other hand was the later title of the Syriac Orthodox metropolitan of
      Tagrit on the River Tigris who was from 629 considered the local head
      of the Syriac Orthodox Christians in Sassanid Persia called the
      Madnehoyo--the Easterners. These Syriac Christians originated partly
      from those abducted by Persians during the wars with Byzantium and
      forced to settle on Persian territory as also Persian Christians who
      resisted forced nestorianization and accepted the spiritual and
      temporal authority of the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch (see
      J.M. Fiey, CSCO Subs. 36, Louvain 1970, p. 55-65; W. Witakowski, The
      Syriac Chronicle of Pseudo-Dionysius of Tel-Mahre, 1987, p. 49). Even
      though elected by the eastern bishops the maphryono was ordained by
      the Patriarch of Antioch and was subordinate to the Patriarch. From
      793 starting with Maphryono Sarbelios they were not elected but
      nominated by the Patriarch of Antioch. The seat of the Maphryono was
      Dayro d-Mor Matay, but in later centuries the Maphryono resided with
      the Patriarch in the Kurkmo monastery in Mardin. It was at the Dayro
      d-Mor Matay that Mor Baselius Yaldo abdicated his position and set
      out to India. The last of the Maphryonos passed away in 1848.

      For the Christians in Persia, the position of Catholicos and
      Maphryono were distinct. For instance, Bar `Ebroyo was well known as
      a Maphryono of the East while his equally learned contemporary
      Timothy was well known as Catholicos.

      The title of Catholicos came to be identified with that of the
      Maphryono only in Malankara and that after the Catholicate
      was "transferred" to Malankara in 1912 by the hands of an expelled
      Patriarch of Antioch. If he established a new position of Catholicos
      for Malankara that would have been one thing, but the claim was that
      the Catholicate of Tagrit was transferred to Kerala (apparently to
      bestow historical authenticity to the position; we find the same
      claim repeated by none other than the current Catholicos recently).
      The fact is that there never was a Catholicate of Tagrit and at best
      the office of the Maphryono could have been transferred. But HG
      Vattasseril Mar Dionysius was adamant that the position be called the
      Catholicos and not the Maphryono as evident in his dialogue with
      Patriarch Mor Elias III at Thrikkunathu Seminary after HH arrived in
      Malankara in the early 1930s. The Patriarch offered to confer the
      position of Maphryono to establish peace but Mar Dionysius rejected
      the offer. On the one hand, the attempt was to establish the
      independence of the Catholicos from the Patriarch but at the same
      time not identify with the Catholicate of the Church of the East
      whose confession of faith is incompatible with that of the Oriental
      Orthodox churches.

      I would hope that St. Baselius Yaldo is properly referred to by his
      title Maphryono and not Catholicos.

      Thomas Joseph, Ph.D.
      Web Master, SOR (http://sor.cua.edu)
      Technical Editor, Hugoye: Journal of Syriac Studies
      (http://syrcom.cu.edu/Hugoye)


      --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "DANIEL BABU PAUL" <dbabupaul@s...> wrote:
      > comments for further refinement.
      > 1. language and style.
      > 2.distinguish between Eastern and Oriental.
      > 3.Baselios Yeldo was Catholicose
      > 4.Numismatic evidence connecting Gudnapher to Thomas.
      > 5.Thomas in NW India and Thomas in the south, work in Socotra and
      discovery
      > of Trade winds and the revolutionary change in sea travel.
      > TOTUS TUUS MARIA
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW <bibuphilipmathew@e...>
      > To: <rejimonskokie@y...>; <ti2001in@y...>;
      > <tomchandy@y...>; <
    • V Thomas
      Dear Sir, I request few answers from the learned members of our forum. 1.What made early converts in India to change their name?.They could have kept their old
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 7, 2002
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        Dear Sir,
        I request few answers from the learned members of our forum.
        1.What made early converts in India to change their name?.They could have
        kept their
        old names.Their hardly any Indian (showing our culturaal roots) name used by
        us.
        Is it due to the fact early christians were of jewish settlers in Kerala
        for whose sake St.Thomas came.?Our earlier names are
        like,Thoma,Mattai.Kuriakose
        Kurian etc are different from Hindu names.
        2.How come we used be called by the nick name Nazarani?
        The followers of man from Nazreth was known to Jews not Indinas.That may be
        due to the fact
        that converted jews and non converted jews existed at one time in abundance.
        3.Our Vadken pattukal,which describes much about great warriors of northern
        Kearala
        has no mention of christians.But it mentions Muslims?(If I am am correct it
        mentions
        Jonomars-who are muslims ).That may be due the fact below todays Palakkad
        only(rather cochin and around
        where jewish traders were there) christians existed.
        4.Few historians believe that Nairs were orginally Assirians,who were also
        matriarcal.
        Jews and later Arabs settled in Kerala coast later.
        5.Our Kerala history shows predominance of Tamil Bramins. Malayalam bramins
        came
        to prominance much later.Hence there was not much to blieve Nambudiris were
        the custodians of Hinduism those days..
        6.Use of cross among christians came later.When Thomas left Syria he could
        not
        have brought a cross in the same sense we see cross today-as a symbol of
        christinanity.But we have cross
        in use atleast 1500 years(our old churches are atleast 1500 years ,as
        history shows).
        What is so pure Indian about all these things.??
        Regards
        vmt


        Our earlier names are s----- Original Message -----
        From: "thomas_pa1" <thomas_pa1@...>
        To: <SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 11:28 PM
        Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Fwd: Article- Oriental Consanguinity (History)


        > 1. Kindly also mention the names of other churches and the
        > Apostles who founded them. For example: Churches founded by St.
        > Mark, St. Andrew, (and even St. Thomas if you will) etc.
        > 2. According to most traditional teaching "Church of Anthioc"
        > was founded by Apostles Peter and Paul.
        > 3. Oriental nature of a church is shown when church adopts to
        > the life and culture of common people of the land. Just like
        > Christ who spoke the language of common man, Aramaic.
        > What is the cultural state of Christians in India, especially
        > the Jacobite/ Orthodox factions?
      • thomas_pa1
        ... have ... used by ... Kerala ... Names of old mothers in the Malnakara church like Achaamma , Chinnamma , Thankamma , ... are purely Indian names. So,
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 11, 2002
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          --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "V Thomas" <vthomas@t...> wrote:
          > Dear Sir,
          > I request few answers from the learned members of our forum.
          > 1.What made early converts in India to change their name?.They could
          have
          > kept their
          > old names.Their hardly any Indian (showing our culturaal roots) name
          used by
          > us.
          > Is it due to the fact early christians were of jewish settlers in
          Kerala
          > for whose sake St.Thomas came.?Our earlier names are
          > like,Thoma,Mattai.Kuriakose
          > Kurian etc are different from Hindu names.


          Names of old mothers in the Malnakara church like "Achaamma",
          "Chinnamma", "Thankamma", ... are purely Indian names. So,
          from ancient times our community followed Indian (Hidhu) culture
          in everything. Our churches resembled Hindhu temples.
          Now, why do we want to divide this community into two groups
          and declare that one community is purely Syrian/middle-eastern
          and is mutually exclusive of the other lesser Indian one, when
          we have close blood relatives in each faction? Isn't this rather
          cruel? Why do we want to convert a great civilization in to Arabic
          style of fanaticism and culture?

          -T
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