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Re: Fwd: Article- Oriental Consanguinity (History)

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  • thomas_pa1
    This Oriental Consanguinity has been ... Court ... (Turkey) ... crucification ... Catholic ... 1. Kindly also mention the names of other churches and the
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 6, 2002
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      This Oriental Consanguinity has been
      > acknowledged by Hon. Supreme Court of India.The Supreme
      Court
      > also recognizes H.H. Patriarch of Antioch and All the East
      > in SYRIA as Supreme Head of Syrian Orthodox Christians
      > in India.The Holy Throne Of Antioch was established by
      > Patriarch.St .Peter, the chief Apostle in 37AD in Antioch
      (Turkey)
      > as there was political unrest in Jerusalem after
      crucification
      > of Christ in 33AD. (disciples of Christ were first called
      > 'Christians ' at Antioch, ACTS:11:26) .Same St.Peter then found
      > another Church in Rome in 67AD later known as Roman
      Catholic
      > Church.


      1. Kindly also mention the names of other churches and the
      Apostles who founded them. For example: Churches founded by St.
      Mark, St. Andrew, (and even St. Thomas if you will) etc.
      2. According to most traditional teaching "Church of Anthioc"
      was founded by Apostles Peter and Paul.
      3. Oriental nature of a church is shown when church adopts to
      the life and culture of common people of the land. Just like
      Christ who spoke the language of common man, Aramaic.
      What is the cultural state of Christians in India, especially
      the Jacobite/ Orthodox factions? Are we going downhill culturally,
      degrading also the cultural values of traditional Indians?
      If so, how is this witnessing Christ and His church?
      Do we have a vision about existing as an Orthodox Church in Indian
      sub-continent? How the church is helping by adopting Ecumenical
      liturgical traditions to the life and culture of Indian people?
      Compare our siutation with the growth of Oriental church in
      Ethiopia, Armenia, Egypt etc.?
      4. Churches confessing same faith forms the one Church without
      division. There is no division according to teachings of ancient
      Church fathers, most notably St. Severus, St. Cyril etc.
      So whether the church of same faith develops in the West or
      in the Orient, it is the same church by nature of the confession.
      So, there is no special importance to Oriental culture, since
      Christ is for all civilizations. Our duty as Indian Christians
      should be to be like our neighbours in good aspects of the
      civilization, without acting foreign (Sheema) in culture, language
      etc.

      -T
    • drthomas_joseph
      I would like to point out that Mor Baselius Yaldo was not a Catholicos but a Maphryono--two entirely distinct positions. The Catholicos of the East whose seat
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 7, 2002
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        I would like to point out that Mor Baselius Yaldo was not a
        Catholicos but a Maphryono--two entirely distinct positions.

        The Catholicos of the East whose seat was in Seleucia-Ctesiphon (and
        later Baghdad) was the primate of the Church of the East in Persia.
        Divided from the rest of Christendom in the Roman empire it did not
        participate in the ecumenical Synods but accepted those of Nicaea and
        Constantinople and thus the spiritual authority of the Patriarch of
        Antioch until the end of the 5th century. As a church in the Persian
        empire, it never was under the temporal jurisdiction of the Patriarch
        of Antioch. The succession of the Catholicos continues today in the
        Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East.

        The Maphryono (lit. "one who bears fruit" or "consecrator") on the
        other hand was the later title of the Syriac Orthodox metropolitan of
        Tagrit on the River Tigris who was from 629 considered the local head
        of the Syriac Orthodox Christians in Sassanid Persia called the
        Madnehoyo--the Easterners. These Syriac Christians originated partly
        from those abducted by Persians during the wars with Byzantium and
        forced to settle on Persian territory as also Persian Christians who
        resisted forced nestorianization and accepted the spiritual and
        temporal authority of the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch (see
        J.M. Fiey, CSCO Subs. 36, Louvain 1970, p. 55-65; W. Witakowski, The
        Syriac Chronicle of Pseudo-Dionysius of Tel-Mahre, 1987, p. 49). Even
        though elected by the eastern bishops the maphryono was ordained by
        the Patriarch of Antioch and was subordinate to the Patriarch. From
        793 starting with Maphryono Sarbelios they were not elected but
        nominated by the Patriarch of Antioch. The seat of the Maphryono was
        Dayro d-Mor Matay, but in later centuries the Maphryono resided with
        the Patriarch in the Kurkmo monastery in Mardin. It was at the Dayro
        d-Mor Matay that Mor Baselius Yaldo abdicated his position and set
        out to India. The last of the Maphryonos passed away in 1848.

        For the Christians in Persia, the position of Catholicos and
        Maphryono were distinct. For instance, Bar `Ebroyo was well known as
        a Maphryono of the East while his equally learned contemporary
        Timothy was well known as Catholicos.

        The title of Catholicos came to be identified with that of the
        Maphryono only in Malankara and that after the Catholicate
        was "transferred" to Malankara in 1912 by the hands of an expelled
        Patriarch of Antioch. If he established a new position of Catholicos
        for Malankara that would have been one thing, but the claim was that
        the Catholicate of Tagrit was transferred to Kerala (apparently to
        bestow historical authenticity to the position; we find the same
        claim repeated by none other than the current Catholicos recently).
        The fact is that there never was a Catholicate of Tagrit and at best
        the office of the Maphryono could have been transferred. But HG
        Vattasseril Mar Dionysius was adamant that the position be called the
        Catholicos and not the Maphryono as evident in his dialogue with
        Patriarch Mor Elias III at Thrikkunathu Seminary after HH arrived in
        Malankara in the early 1930s. The Patriarch offered to confer the
        position of Maphryono to establish peace but Mar Dionysius rejected
        the offer. On the one hand, the attempt was to establish the
        independence of the Catholicos from the Patriarch but at the same
        time not identify with the Catholicate of the Church of the East
        whose confession of faith is incompatible with that of the Oriental
        Orthodox churches.

        I would hope that St. Baselius Yaldo is properly referred to by his
        title Maphryono and not Catholicos.

        Thomas Joseph, Ph.D.
        Web Master, SOR (http://sor.cua.edu)
        Technical Editor, Hugoye: Journal of Syriac Studies
        (http://syrcom.cu.edu/Hugoye)


        --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "DANIEL BABU PAUL" <dbabupaul@s...> wrote:
        > comments for further refinement.
        > 1. language and style.
        > 2.distinguish between Eastern and Oriental.
        > 3.Baselios Yeldo was Catholicose
        > 4.Numismatic evidence connecting Gudnapher to Thomas.
        > 5.Thomas in NW India and Thomas in the south, work in Socotra and
        discovery
        > of Trade winds and the revolutionary change in sea travel.
        > TOTUS TUUS MARIA
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW <bibuphilipmathew@e...>
        > To: <rejimonskokie@y...>; <ti2001in@y...>;
        > <tomchandy@y...>; <
      • V Thomas
        Dear Sir, I request few answers from the learned members of our forum. 1.What made early converts in India to change their name?.They could have kept their old
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 7, 2002
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          Dear Sir,
          I request few answers from the learned members of our forum.
          1.What made early converts in India to change their name?.They could have
          kept their
          old names.Their hardly any Indian (showing our culturaal roots) name used by
          us.
          Is it due to the fact early christians were of jewish settlers in Kerala
          for whose sake St.Thomas came.?Our earlier names are
          like,Thoma,Mattai.Kuriakose
          Kurian etc are different from Hindu names.
          2.How come we used be called by the nick name Nazarani?
          The followers of man from Nazreth was known to Jews not Indinas.That may be
          due to the fact
          that converted jews and non converted jews existed at one time in abundance.
          3.Our Vadken pattukal,which describes much about great warriors of northern
          Kearala
          has no mention of christians.But it mentions Muslims?(If I am am correct it
          mentions
          Jonomars-who are muslims ).That may be due the fact below todays Palakkad
          only(rather cochin and around
          where jewish traders were there) christians existed.
          4.Few historians believe that Nairs were orginally Assirians,who were also
          matriarcal.
          Jews and later Arabs settled in Kerala coast later.
          5.Our Kerala history shows predominance of Tamil Bramins. Malayalam bramins
          came
          to prominance much later.Hence there was not much to blieve Nambudiris were
          the custodians of Hinduism those days..
          6.Use of cross among christians came later.When Thomas left Syria he could
          not
          have brought a cross in the same sense we see cross today-as a symbol of
          christinanity.But we have cross
          in use atleast 1500 years(our old churches are atleast 1500 years ,as
          history shows).
          What is so pure Indian about all these things.??
          Regards
          vmt


          Our earlier names are s----- Original Message -----
          From: "thomas_pa1" <thomas_pa1@...>
          To: <SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 11:28 PM
          Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Fwd: Article- Oriental Consanguinity (History)


          > 1. Kindly also mention the names of other churches and the
          > Apostles who founded them. For example: Churches founded by St.
          > Mark, St. Andrew, (and even St. Thomas if you will) etc.
          > 2. According to most traditional teaching "Church of Anthioc"
          > was founded by Apostles Peter and Paul.
          > 3. Oriental nature of a church is shown when church adopts to
          > the life and culture of common people of the land. Just like
          > Christ who spoke the language of common man, Aramaic.
          > What is the cultural state of Christians in India, especially
          > the Jacobite/ Orthodox factions?
        • thomas_pa1
          ... have ... used by ... Kerala ... Names of old mothers in the Malnakara church like Achaamma , Chinnamma , Thankamma , ... are purely Indian names. So,
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 11, 2002
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            --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "V Thomas" <vthomas@t...> wrote:
            > Dear Sir,
            > I request few answers from the learned members of our forum.
            > 1.What made early converts in India to change their name?.They could
            have
            > kept their
            > old names.Their hardly any Indian (showing our culturaal roots) name
            used by
            > us.
            > Is it due to the fact early christians were of jewish settlers in
            Kerala
            > for whose sake St.Thomas came.?Our earlier names are
            > like,Thoma,Mattai.Kuriakose
            > Kurian etc are different from Hindu names.


            Names of old mothers in the Malnakara church like "Achaamma",
            "Chinnamma", "Thankamma", ... are purely Indian names. So,
            from ancient times our community followed Indian (Hidhu) culture
            in everything. Our churches resembled Hindhu temples.
            Now, why do we want to divide this community into two groups
            and declare that one community is purely Syrian/middle-eastern
            and is mutually exclusive of the other lesser Indian one, when
            we have close blood relatives in each faction? Isn't this rather
            cruel? Why do we want to convert a great civilization in to Arabic
            style of fanaticism and culture?

            -T
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