Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Fwd: Article- Oriental Consanguinity (History)
- comments for further refinement.
1. language and style.
2.distinguish between Eastern and Oriental.
3.Baselios Yeldo was Catholicose
4.Numismatic evidence connecting Gudnapher to Thomas.
5.Thomas in NW India and Thomas in the south, work in Socotra and discovery
of Trade winds and the revolutionary change in sea travel.
TOTUS TUUS MARIA
----- Original Message -----
From: BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW <bibuphilipmathew@...>
To: <rejimonskokie@...>; <ti2001in@...>;
- This Oriental Consanguinity has been
> acknowledged by Hon. Supreme Court of India.The SupremeCourt
> also recognizes H.H. Patriarch of Antioch and All the East(Turkey)
> in SYRIA as Supreme Head of Syrian Orthodox Christians
> in India.The Holy Throne Of Antioch was established by
> Patriarch.St .Peter, the chief Apostle in 37AD in Antioch
> as there was political unrest in Jerusalem aftercrucification
> of Christ in 33AD. (disciples of Christ were first calledCatholic
> 'Christians ' at Antioch, ACTS:11:26) .Same St.Peter then found
> another Church in Rome in 67AD later known as Roman
> Church.1. Kindly also mention the names of other churches and the
Apostles who founded them. For example: Churches founded by St.
Mark, St. Andrew, (and even St. Thomas if you will) etc.
2. According to most traditional teaching "Church of Anthioc"
was founded by Apostles Peter and Paul.
3. Oriental nature of a church is shown when church adopts to
the life and culture of common people of the land. Just like
Christ who spoke the language of common man, Aramaic.
What is the cultural state of Christians in India, especially
the Jacobite/ Orthodox factions? Are we going downhill culturally,
degrading also the cultural values of traditional Indians?
If so, how is this witnessing Christ and His church?
Do we have a vision about existing as an Orthodox Church in Indian
sub-continent? How the church is helping by adopting Ecumenical
liturgical traditions to the life and culture of Indian people?
Compare our siutation with the growth of Oriental church in
Ethiopia, Armenia, Egypt etc.?
4. Churches confessing same faith forms the one Church without
division. There is no division according to teachings of ancient
Church fathers, most notably St. Severus, St. Cyril etc.
So whether the church of same faith develops in the West or
in the Orient, it is the same church by nature of the confession.
So, there is no special importance to Oriental culture, since
Christ is for all civilizations. Our duty as Indian Christians
should be to be like our neighbours in good aspects of the
civilization, without acting foreign (Sheema) in culture, language
- I would like to point out that Mor Baselius Yaldo was not a
Catholicos but a Maphryono--two entirely distinct positions.
The Catholicos of the East whose seat was in Seleucia-Ctesiphon (and
later Baghdad) was the primate of the Church of the East in Persia.
Divided from the rest of Christendom in the Roman empire it did not
participate in the ecumenical Synods but accepted those of Nicaea and
Constantinople and thus the spiritual authority of the Patriarch of
Antioch until the end of the 5th century. As a church in the Persian
empire, it never was under the temporal jurisdiction of the Patriarch
of Antioch. The succession of the Catholicos continues today in the
Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East.
The Maphryono (lit. "one who bears fruit" or "consecrator") on the
other hand was the later title of the Syriac Orthodox metropolitan of
Tagrit on the River Tigris who was from 629 considered the local head
of the Syriac Orthodox Christians in Sassanid Persia called the
Madnehoyo--the Easterners. These Syriac Christians originated partly
from those abducted by Persians during the wars with Byzantium and
forced to settle on Persian territory as also Persian Christians who
resisted forced nestorianization and accepted the spiritual and
temporal authority of the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch (see
J.M. Fiey, CSCO Subs. 36, Louvain 1970, p. 55-65; W. Witakowski, The
Syriac Chronicle of Pseudo-Dionysius of Tel-Mahre, 1987, p. 49). Even
though elected by the eastern bishops the maphryono was ordained by
the Patriarch of Antioch and was subordinate to the Patriarch. From
793 starting with Maphryono Sarbelios they were not elected but
nominated by the Patriarch of Antioch. The seat of the Maphryono was
Dayro d-Mor Matay, but in later centuries the Maphryono resided with
the Patriarch in the Kurkmo monastery in Mardin. It was at the Dayro
d-Mor Matay that Mor Baselius Yaldo abdicated his position and set
out to India. The last of the Maphryonos passed away in 1848.
For the Christians in Persia, the position of Catholicos and
Maphryono were distinct. For instance, Bar `Ebroyo was well known as
a Maphryono of the East while his equally learned contemporary
Timothy was well known as Catholicos.
The title of Catholicos came to be identified with that of the
Maphryono only in Malankara and that after the Catholicate
was "transferred" to Malankara in 1912 by the hands of an expelled
Patriarch of Antioch. If he established a new position of Catholicos
for Malankara that would have been one thing, but the claim was that
the Catholicate of Tagrit was transferred to Kerala (apparently to
bestow historical authenticity to the position; we find the same
claim repeated by none other than the current Catholicos recently).
The fact is that there never was a Catholicate of Tagrit and at best
the office of the Maphryono could have been transferred. But HG
Vattasseril Mar Dionysius was adamant that the position be called the
Catholicos and not the Maphryono as evident in his dialogue with
Patriarch Mor Elias III at Thrikkunathu Seminary after HH arrived in
Malankara in the early 1930s. The Patriarch offered to confer the
position of Maphryono to establish peace but Mar Dionysius rejected
the offer. On the one hand, the attempt was to establish the
independence of the Catholicos from the Patriarch but at the same
time not identify with the Catholicate of the Church of the East
whose confession of faith is incompatible with that of the Oriental
I would hope that St. Baselius Yaldo is properly referred to by his
title Maphryono and not Catholicos.
Thomas Joseph, Ph.D.
Web Master, SOR (http://sor.cua.edu)
Technical Editor, Hugoye: Journal of Syriac Studies
--- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "DANIEL BABU PAUL" <dbabupaul@s...> wrote:
> comments for further refinement.
> 1. language and style.
> 2.distinguish between Eastern and Oriental.
> 3.Baselios Yeldo was Catholicose
> 4.Numismatic evidence connecting Gudnapher to Thomas.
> 5.Thomas in NW India and Thomas in the south, work in Socotra and
> of Trade winds and the revolutionary change in sea travel.
> TOTUS TUUS MARIA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW <bibuphilipmathew@e...>
> To: <rejimonskokie@y...>; <ti2001in@y...>;
> <tomchandy@y...>; <
- Dear Sir,
I request few answers from the learned members of our forum.
1.What made early converts in India to change their name?.They could have
old names.Their hardly any Indian (showing our culturaal roots) name used by
Is it due to the fact early christians were of jewish settlers in Kerala
for whose sake St.Thomas came.?Our earlier names are
Kurian etc are different from Hindu names.
2.How come we used be called by the nick name Nazarani?
The followers of man from Nazreth was known to Jews not Indinas.That may be
due to the fact
that converted jews and non converted jews existed at one time in abundance.
3.Our Vadken pattukal,which describes much about great warriors of northern
has no mention of christians.But it mentions Muslims?(If I am am correct it
Jonomars-who are muslims ).That may be due the fact below todays Palakkad
only(rather cochin and around
where jewish traders were there) christians existed.
4.Few historians believe that Nairs were orginally Assirians,who were also
Jews and later Arabs settled in Kerala coast later.
5.Our Kerala history shows predominance of Tamil Bramins. Malayalam bramins
to prominance much later.Hence there was not much to blieve Nambudiris were
the custodians of Hinduism those days..
6.Use of cross among christians came later.When Thomas left Syria he could
have brought a cross in the same sense we see cross today-as a symbol of
christinanity.But we have cross
in use atleast 1500 years(our old churches are atleast 1500 years ,as
What is so pure Indian about all these things.??
Our earlier names are s----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas_pa1" <thomas_pa1@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 11:28 PM
Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Fwd: Article- Oriental Consanguinity (History)
> 1. Kindly also mention the names of other churches and the
> Apostles who founded them. For example: Churches founded by St.
> Mark, St. Andrew, (and even St. Thomas if you will) etc.
> 2. According to most traditional teaching "Church of Anthioc"
> was founded by Apostles Peter and Paul.
> 3. Oriental nature of a church is shown when church adopts to
> the life and culture of common people of the land. Just like
> Christ who spoke the language of common man, Aramaic.
> What is the cultural state of Christians in India, especially
> the Jacobite/ Orthodox factions?
- --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "V Thomas" <vthomas@t...> wrote:
> Dear Sir,have
> I request few answers from the learned members of our forum.
> 1.What made early converts in India to change their name?.They could
> kept theirused by
> old names.Their hardly any Indian (showing our culturaal roots) name
> Is it due to the fact early christians were of jewish settlers in
> for whose sake St.Thomas came.?Our earlier names areNames of old mothers in the Malnakara church like "Achaamma",
> Kurian etc are different from Hindu names.
"Chinnamma", "Thankamma", ... are purely Indian names. So,
from ancient times our community followed Indian (Hidhu) culture
in everything. Our churches resembled Hindhu temples.
Now, why do we want to divide this community into two groups
and declare that one community is purely Syrian/middle-eastern
and is mutually exclusive of the other lesser Indian one, when
we have close blood relatives in each faction? Isn't this rather
cruel? Why do we want to convert a great civilization in to Arabic
style of fanaticism and culture?