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Deception

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  • V Thomas
    Nature Dear All, Is impersonation/deception a sin,if it done even with good intention? Like a boy who brings to the master a person from the street ,to escape
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 19, 2002
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      Nature

      Dear All,
      Is impersonation/deception a sin,if it done even with good intention?
      Like a boy  who brings to the master a person from the street ,to escape punishment,
      saying it is  his father?Here this stranger impersontes the boys father.
      In this case this boy is at  greater mistake or the grown up person
      who has impersonated his father.?
      He has done with good intention.To save the boy from punishment?
      We are all familiar with  Satan coming to Eve in the form of a snake
      and pretending to be a friend and welwisher.God punishes both man and devil.
      Is there anywhere in bible , such an act is justified?
      In 1912,Ahatulla patriarch was brought to India by MM and Ougen bava
      to establish the catholicate.He was not the ruling patriarch.
      Is this also an act of impersonation.Who is at mistake?
      What is the opinion of forum memebrs.?
      There are many who pretends to be our welwishers and exhort that we shall
      attend the association at any cost.Is their act similar??
       
      Regards
      vmt
    • Fr. John Kunjukunju
      In reality telling one thing in the court and telling just opposite to the public, someone agrees in the court for unity and pay the earnest money deposit of
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 21, 2002
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        In reality telling one thing in the court and telling just opposite to the public, someone agrees in the court for unity and pay the earnest money deposit of 50,000 Rupees being fees for the expense and work against the very thing that one had agreed. Is that not deception?  I wonder how people are not concerned about hidden  motives of such leaders, Johnachan.
          
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: V Thomas
        Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 2:35 AM
        To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Deception
         

        Dear All,
        Is impersonation/deception a sin,if it done even with good intention?
        Like a boy  who brings to the master a person from the street ,to escape punishment,
        saying it is  his father?Here this stranger impersontes the boys father.
        In this case this boy is at  greater mistake or the grown up person
        who has impersonated his father.?
        He has done with good intention.To save the boy from punishment?
        We are all familiar with  Satan coming to Eve in the form of a snake
        and pretending to be a friend and welwisher.God punishes both man and devil.
        Is there anywhere in bible , such an act is justified?
        In 1912,Ahatulla patriarch was brought to India by MM and Ougen bava
        to establish the catholicate.He was not the ruling patriarch.
        Is this also an act of impersonation.Who is at mistake?
        What is the opinion of forum memebrs.?
        There are many who pretends to be our welwishers and exhort that we shall
        attend the association at any cost.Is their act similar??
         
        Regards
        vmt


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      • PAUL POTHEN
        In reality telling one thing in the court and telling just opposite to the public Sending notices to Simhasana churches, Pourashthya Samajam churches etc.
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 22, 2002
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          "In reality telling one thing in the court and telling just opposite to the public"
           
          Sending notices to Simhasana churches, Pourashthya Samajam churches etc. and to even independent trust churches like St.Peter�s Chapel Ekm by the Kottayam Catholicose, in spite of the supreme court decision to exclude all these from the Malankara Association,   Is that not deception?   I wonder how some 'clergy & a very very few high soceity people, with selfish motives are not concerned about hidden  motives of such leaders, Paul Pothen
            

           

           

            "Fr. John Kunjukunju" <fatherjohnkk@...> wrote:

          In reality telling one thing in the court and telling just opposite to the public, someone agrees in the court for unity and pay the earnest money deposit of 50,000 Rupees being fees for the expense and work against the very thing that one had agreed. Is that not deception?  I wonder how people are not concerned about hidden  motives of such leaders, Johnachan.
            
           



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        • V Thomas
          Dear Achen, How you can see mistake with our niyutha bava only! Have you neet seen catholicas lenten msg in which he calls himself as Malanakara metropolitan
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 23, 2002
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            Dear Achen,
            How you can see mistake with our niyutha bava only!
            Have you neet seen catholicas lenten msg in which he calls
            himself as Malanakara metropolitan and at the same time calls for
            association to  elect "' Malankara Metropolitan".
            We have agreed for association to be conducted  as per supreme court
            direction and earlier  verdicts,not unilateral.As they are conducting  it with
            deception  on unilateral terms,our not attending that is correct.
            When we have spent 8 crores for cases,and 50000 is not big.After the association
            much more will have to be spent.
            Have you not seen the catholica's  letter to Perumbally thirumeni (may 10th 1997)
            in which he said  Patriarch is not acceptable as head.
            Still they agreed to supreme court Patriarch is HH is the head.And outside
            they do not give any respect.Agreeing one thing to court and doing the opposite outside is wrong.
            Regards
            vmt
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 3:25 AM
            Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Deception

            In reality telling one thing in the court and telling just opposite to the public, someone agrees in the court for unity and pay the earnest money deposit of 50,000 Rupees ......
          • Fr. John Kunjukunju
            I have a copy of the SC order. I do not know if it is authentic. The name of the church it reads, Marthoma Syria Church . I asked if this version is correct
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 25, 2002
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              I have a copy of the SC order. I do not know if it is authentic. The name of the church it reads, "Marthoma Syria Church". I asked if this version is correct in the form but none responded. So I take the version as appeared in Manorama. It says, "V, If the Malankara association when convened, decides by majority that Moran Mar Baselius Marthoma Mathews II is not the Malankara Methran third respondent will voluntarily resign his office as Malankara Methran."
              What I understood from this sentence is that the Supreme Court is not serious nor object whether or not the Catholica uses the designation he so far held. It also means that the court admits the fact that until decided otherwise he is legitimately Malankara Methran. 
              Again the order says Moran Mor Baselius Marthoma Mathews II shall call the meeting. But nowhere I found a directive not to use the 'MM' title. In the absence of clear directive not to use such designation I find nothing contrary to the SC order if he uses the 'MM' title.
              I will be happy to receive the version prohibiting the impugned title. Fr John KK.  
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: V Thomas
              Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 12:32 AM
              To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Deception
               
              Dear Achen,
              How you can see mistake with our niyutha bava only!
              Have you neet seen catholicas lenten msg in which he calls
              himself as Malanakara metropolitan and at the same time calls for
              association to  elect "' Malankara Metropolitan".
              We have agreed for association to be conducted  as per supreme court
              direction and earlier  verdicts,not unilateral......
            • PAUL POTHEN
              1. As far as I know, the name of the Church as recognised by the Supreme Court in its judgment dated 28.11.2001 is “MALANKARA SYRIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH” and
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 25, 2002
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                1. As far as I know, the name of the Church as recognised by the Supreme Court in its judgment dated 28.11.2001 is �MALANKARA SYRIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH� and not Marthoma Syrian Church as you stated.Instead of using this name, through the initial notices published in news papers the Catholicos has mentioned (in the two annexures), their present group�s name (Orthodox Syrian Church).Again as far as I know, the Jacobites Syrian Church has pointed out this mistake in the complaints submitted to Court nominee, Malimatt in December.

                2. The Court has clearly asked Catholicose to issue the notice as �Mathews II by NAME��� ie; not to claim anything like Malankara Metropolitan etc before election, even though other interpretations also can be made according to the latest judgment issued by the Court.

                3. It was to overcome this difficulty and at the same time to satisfy his group, the Catholicose has used �M.M/A-7/2001� as reference in the last notice published in Manorama on 28th Dec 2001.In the court they can claim it as �Malankara Metropolitan�, �Marthoma Mathews� or �MalayalaManorama Catholicose�, as they like.This way they can interpret �M.M� as they wish (according the circumstances) in future.

                Another hidden tactics followed by this group for more than a centaury !!!

                "Fr. John Kunjukunju" wrote:

                I have a copy of the SC order. I do not know if it is authentic. The name of the church it reads, "Marthoma Syria Church". I asked if this version is correct in the form�but none responded.....
              • DANIEL BABU PAUL
                marthoma syrian church: true it found a place in one court order, but it is a typograhic error. anyway the context would clarify that reference is to our
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 26, 2002
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                  marthoma syrian church: true it found a place in one court order, but it is a typograhic error. anyway the context would clarify that reference is to our church and not the marthoma church.
                  TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 8:41 AM
                  Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: John Achen's doubt on M.M

                  1. As far as I know, the name of the Church as recognised by the Supreme Court in its judgment dated 28.11.2001 is “MALANKARA SYRIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH” and not Marthoma Syrian Church as you stated.  Instead of using this name,.......

                • Joshy C Abraham
                  Dear Mr. Babu Paul, You used the word our church . Can you tell which church you are really in ? Dn.Joshy C Abraham P.O. Box - 27933 Dubai, U.A.E. Tel :
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 27, 2002
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                    Dear Mr. Babu Paul,
                     
                    You used the word 'our church'. Can you tell which church you are really in ?

                       
                    Dn.Joshy C Abraham 
                     
                    P.O. Box - 27933
                    Dubai, U.A.E.
                    Tel    : 971 4 3322899
                    Fax   : 971 4 3323226
                    email : joshy@...

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: DANIEL BABU PAUL [mailto:dbabupaul@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 8:41 PM
                    To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: John Achen's doubt on M.M

                    marthoma syrian church: true it found a place in one court order, but it is a typograhic error. anyway the context would clarify that reference is to our church and not the marthoma church.
                    TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                     
                  • DANIEL BABU PAUL
                    supreme court has found that there is only one church. if you are a member of my church you would know it; if you are not you need not know. may god bless
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 28, 2002
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                      supreme court  has found that there is only one church. if you are a member of my church you would know it; if you are not you need not know. may god bless you.
                      TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:45 AM
                      Subject: RE: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: John Achen's doubt on M.M

                      Dear Mr. Babu Paul,
                       
                      You used the word 'our church'. Can you tell which church you are really in ?...
                    • J P
                      Dear SOCM forum members, Recently it has been heard that the opposite Orthodox group of Kerala has decided to declare their founder father as a saint. I think
                      Message 10 of 10 , Mar 1 6:46 PM
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                         Dear SOCM forum members,

                         

                        Recently it has been heard that the opposite Orthodox group of Kerala has decided to declare their founder father as a saint.  I think it has been announced at the most inappropriate time and is generally considered to be as unnecessary.  Many from their group too, have certain reservations on the declaration of Sainthood to Wattasseril Thirumeni at this juncture.

                         

                        So it’s better to recall to what Dr. D.Babu Paul Sir has recorded in his book “Veni Vidi Vici” in 1982.  Page 37, Reference section no.6.

                         

                         

                        “Mar Dionysius Vattasseril (who is in a way the Father of the dissident group) went to Patriarch Abdulla, who had succeeded Abdul Masih, although Abdul Masih was living there at that time, for his ordination as Bishop.   Whether to avoid the admission of this inconvenient truth or not, he is reported to have said later on,  “I did not see who put his hands on my head at my ordination as Bishop because I had my eyes shut in prayer !!”

                         

                         

                        And now in 2002, ‘ Wattasserril Thirumeni’, who is reported to have made such declarations in a courtto avoid the admission of the inconvenient truth”) , is to conferred with Sainthood !!!! 

                         




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