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Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting

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  • J P
    this is for information of any one who may care to know . I know Maphriyono Yeldho is remembered in the TUBDEN of Methran Kakshi just after Parumala
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 6, 2002
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      " this is for information of any one who may care to know ".

       

      I know Maphriyono Yeldho is remembered in the TUBDEN of Methran Kakshi just after Parumala Thirumeni’s name from 2000.  But the question is that, why did these fellows in an official publication like encyclopaedia published from a seminary, mentions him to be a Nestorian.  It is a fact that these fellows wants to create an impression that all the Antiochean fathers are bad people and in the process, if they find anyone who is considered to be popular, then they will use some other interpretations for them so that they are not described as an Antiochean. 

       

      Take the case of Mor Gregorious Bawa of Vadakkan paravur.  He is recognized as the Metropolitan of Jerusalem diocese under the Syrian Jacobite Patriarch of Antioch and only because of this affiliation with the Syrians, he is being criticized by many of the present day Methran kakshi historians.  They claim that, he came here to absorb the local Church into the Antiochean fold.  But recently, some other so-called renounced scholars of this Methran kakshi, are trying to establish that Mor Gregorious bawa belonged to an Independent Jerusalem Church and he has no connection with the Jacobite Patriarch.  The Indian Orthodox Church’s strategy is that, first they use someone to interpret the history to suit their need and gradually the Church as a whole will accept this theory.  This is exactly what they were doing in the last centaury.

      John

       

        DANIEL BABU PAUL <dbabupaul@...> wrote:

      just a word. Yeldo Maphrian was declared saint by "metran kakshi" in 1947 in the same resolution in which they declared parumala thirumeni a saint. NOW they remember both in tubden also. this is for information of any one who may care to know.TOTUS TUUS MARIA
       




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    • J P
      Rev Fr. KK John wrote- “None of the issues that Mr John Philip mentioned is now a point in litigation”. I can’t agree with that statement. For me faith
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 6, 2002
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         Rev Fr. KK John wrote- “None of the issues that Mr John Philip mentioned is now a point in litigation”.

         

        I can’t agree with that statement.  For me faith & history is the most important thing.  In the present litigation, if the Jacobites surrender to the wishes of Methran faction, then I am 100 % sure that, within a very short period we will have to accept their interpretations to history.  What I said is a reality not a myth.

        John Philip




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      • Fr. John Kunjukunju
        To my knowledge Dr KM George, orthodox spokesman, declared that they are ready to accord deserving honor to Patriarch. I also heard that the same thing the
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 6, 2002
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          To my knowledge Dr KM George, orthodox spokesman, declared that they are ready to accord deserving honor to Patriarch. I also heard that the same thing the catholicose gave in writing to about 30 Kottayam clergies who met him last month. Can you please verify that news? If it is correct it addresses our concerns, right? Love, Johnachan. 
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: V Thomas
          Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:17 AM
          To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting
           
          Dear Jonachen,
          What is so unchristian in keeping our tradition and staying in allegiance
          with Patriach?The Christian love is not one way traffic.(Atleast when we deal with these
          zealous lot ,who is not bothered).What they want?They want our buildings? They can take it.
          We need our faith and will stay in Patriarch side.Buying a few people and closing our church
          and services-is it Christian love.?This is what they were doing all these years.
          Is it correct for them to call the meeting as they like,disobeying the  verdict-is it Christian love?
          To have a niyuktha bava is it correct for them?
          .Then it is correct for us also..
          Many in the forum says we shall surrender to them,just like that.When they stamp us,they keep quite.
          As far our actions are concerned it is all unchristian,for them..
          We have to believe in christian obedience also.They do not obey Patriarch(In fact they do not
          recognise present HH) .We will  go as per HH directions,not by,catholicose directions.We not not believe
          not obeying catholicose is lack of Christain love..
          Love and regards
          vmt


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        • Fr. John Kunjukunju
          I see all the said things are right and apt. But I have a question and that is; Do you really believe, or are you sure, the Jacobytes with its present head,
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 6, 2002
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            I see all the said things are right and apt.
            But I have a question and that is;
            Do you really believe, or are you sure, the Jacobytes with its present head, the Patriarch still uphold the 'Koonan Cross Sathyam'? To my knowledge that faith stands abdicated by the Head.
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: J P
            Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 12:50 AM
            To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Daniel Babu Paul - Association Meeting
             

             Dear SOCM members,

             
            In the present circumstances it is fact that there are certain limitations for the Malankara Jacobite Christians, as explained by Daniel Babu Paul Sir.
             
            But still, I think it will be relevant, if we can recollect some events from the history.
             
            In 1653, the Malankara people vowed to fight against the Catholic aggression of the Portuguese at Mattancherry, which is popularly known as 'Koonan Kurisu Oath'.......
          • J P
            Dear SOCM members, Fr. John Kunjukunju wrote to me--- I see all the said things are right and apt My reply: - Thanks very much. Fr. John Kunjukunju
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 7, 2002
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               Dear SOCM members,

               
               
              "Fr. John Kunjukunju" wrote to me--- "I see all the said things are right and apt"
               
              My reply: -  Thanks very much.
               

              "Fr. John Kunjukunju" wrote --  "But I have a question and that is; Do you really believe, or are you sure, the Jacobytes with its present head, the Patriarch still uphold the 'Koonan Cross Sathyam'?"
               
              My reply: -  I strongly believe in our present Patriarch of Antioch & all the East, 'H.H Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas', who for me is a living Saint.
               
               
               
              "Fr. John Kunjukunju" wrote -- "To my knowledge that faith stands abdicated by the Head".
               
              My reply: -   SORRY !!!!
               
               
              John Philip
               

               

              "Fr. John Kunjukunju" wrote:

              I see all the said things are right and apt.
              But I have a question and that is.....
            • Thomas Issac
              To all those who wanted to read the truth We don t beleive this Rev.Dr. K M George (a Catholicose faction spokesman) who is the principal of Kottayam
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 7, 2002
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                "To all those who wanted to read the truth"

                We don't beleive this Rev.Dr. K M George (a Catholicose faction spokesman) who is the principal of Kottayam Seminary.  His job is to praise the Patriarch in HH's presence (at Damascus) and when he returns he starts criticizing H.H and also tries to downgrade the universal Syrian Orthodox Church through many of their mouthpieces; if anyone have any doubt, please go through the periodicals published in the last few years from Devolokom Catholicate aramana. 

                Now in recent times,  to trap the Jacobite syrians, like many others in his Church, he too has given a superficial statement in a newspaper.  (His tactics is well known to the people of Kottayam).  But what we the Jacobite Syrians really wanted, is a written statement from the Catholiocse Mathews II regarding similar issues, which until now the Catholicose is reluctant to even respond.   When mediators like Oommen Chandy, (a Catholicose faction politician) contacted us, we the Jacobite Church, again and again requested for an amicable solution.   But the 'official' Catholicose faction's reply was that "we accept all these, but first you (Jacobites) participate in the election conducted by our Catholicose, after that we will consider....".  From this very statement of Catholicose faction leadership, it is very clear that they are not at all interested in real peace, but what their leadership wanted is just to trap the Jacobites Syrian Christians, just as they had done in 1950's, 60' & 70's.  Remember the Catholicos faction has send notices to every Simhasana Churches & E.A.E churches, all of which as per the Supreme Court order, is under the direct juridisction of the Patriarch of Antioch and are not at all included in the Malankara Association.  Are they(Catholicos faction) doing all these according to the Supreme Court order ?  Can anyone, ever rely the present Catholicose faction leadership? 

                About the meeting of Kottayam clergies with Catholicose Mathews II -  In reality, only 2 Priests met the Catholiocose at Devolokom, 2 others where there to support them and these four priests together requested the support of other clergies of the diocese.  Among the above said priests, one fellow is already a supporter of the Catholicose faction for the last few years.   Three more were were ready to accept the Catholicose, but only subject to certain conditions such as that, 'the Syrian Church as a whole must accept the Catholicose faction'. 

                But in the 'Diocesean Pothuyogam' (membership of 63 churches) held on 24th Januaray, the entire people strongly opposed these ideas of a very few clergies, so they (the above mentioned 7 clergies) have to drop the idea (Details are available at the diocesean headquareters).  After that every church has given a letter signed by the respective PARISH PRIESTS, addressed to the diocesean bishop His Grace Mor Thimotheous Thirumeni, the Catholicos designate H B Mor Dionysius Thomas and other responsible authorities, declaring that, under the present circumstances they are not at all willing to be trapped into the association organized for the Catholicose faction.   

                Thus in reality only two met the Catholicos, but when the news reached america, someone intentionally multipled it with 15.  Above all, the two priests who met the Catholiose, hadn't till now signed or submitted any papers to the Devolokom Catholicose. One among them owns a Church by himself, but he had already declared that under no circumstances, he will hand over the church to the Catholicos faction.

                This is the fact.  If anyone have any doubt about the authenticity of what we explained, you can check the signed papers submitted by the Priests & the churches to our Metropolitan, that are avaialable at the Cathedral Church,  Tel: No.564490.   We are forced to write all these, because at present, many are trying to demoralize the Jacobite Church through false informations published in many forums and their only intention is to trap the Jacobite Syrian Christians into the Catholicose faction's fold through false propaganda.  These types of tactics by the Catholicose faction leadership will continue until March 20th.  So be careful !!!

                 

                Malankara Voice 

                 

                 

                  "Fr. John Kunjukunju" wrote:

                To my knowledge Dr KM George, orthodox spokesman, declared that they are ready to accord deserving honor to Patriarch. I also heard that the same thing the catholicose gave in writing to about 30 Kottayam clergies who met him last month. Can you please verify that news? If it is correct it addresses our concerns, right? Love, Johnachan......
              • V Thomas
                Dear Achen, What is deserving honour?They accept Patriarch only as per constitution.The constitution says for the Patriarchs ordination Catholoca is must.Hence
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 7, 2002
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                  Dear Achen,
                   
                  What is deserving honour?They accept Patriarch only as per constitution.The constitution says
                  for the Patriarchs ordination Catholoca is must.Hence present,Partarch is not recognized
                  as per constitution.After an association conducted some how,when catholica is made Malankara Metropolitan,
                  this is what they will say.Once cheated in1958  we must be real gullible do repeat the same mistake.
                  The Association notice itself says to 'declare Catholica as Malankara Metropolitan' ,not to elect one.
                   
                  Many political and religious dignitories tried(HG Cyril Mor Basaeleos,President
                  catholic Bishops council also tried) to arrange a meeting between Patriarch and Catholicos during HH visit to
                  Chingavanam-at least tea together.Orthodox leadership refused , for the same reason.(If they have to recognise
                  Patriarch,HH may have to be reordained.!!!)
                  When it comes to the core no spokesman is there.They will float many statements.Newsflashes about mediation
                  by YMCA,Eccuminical forums,leading persons will come and all failed because of Jacobites obstinacy.Hvae they moved an inch?
                  This is all propaganda  to confuse our people.
                  You said situation has changed.? How is that?We were seperated based on the issue of St.Thomas Throne.
                  (The question of Swayam serhatham)They still hold on to it.They filed  a case saying 1054 churches are theirs and this
                  association is based on verdict of that case.Now they have 1500 churches,including our church in Bangalore in the list.
                  That is the difference.There is no change other than few more Metropolitans has changed over to the other side.
                  love and regards
                  vmt
                   
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 3:48 AM
                  Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting

                  To my knowledge Dr KM George, orthodox spokesman, declared that they are ready to accord deserving honor to Patriarch. I also heard that the same thing the catholicose gave in writing to about 30 Kottayam clergies who met him last month. Can you please verify that news? If it is correct it addresses our concerns, right? Love, Johnachan. 
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: V Thomas
                  Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:17 AM
                  To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting
                   
                  Dear Jonachen,
                  What is so unchristian in keeping our tradition and staying in allegiance
                  with Patriach?The Christian love is not one way traffic.(Atleast when we deal with these
                  zealous lot ,who is not bothered).What they want?They want our buildings? They can take it.
                  We need our faith and will stay in Patriarch side.Buying a few people and closing our church
                  and services-is it Christian love.?This is what they were doing all these years.
                  Is it correct for them to call the meeting as they like,disobeying the  verdict-is it Christian love?
                  To have a niyuktha bava is it correct for them?
                  .Then it is correct for us also..
                  Many in the forum says we shall surrender to them,just like that.When they stamp us,they keep quite.
                  As far our actions are concerned it is all unchristian,for them..
                  We have to believe in christian obedience also.They do not obey Patriarch(In fact they do not
                  recognise present HH) .We will  go as per HH directions,not by,catholicose directions.We not not believe
                  not obeying catholicose is lack of Christain love..
                  Love and regards
                  vmt


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                • DANIEL BABU PAUL
                  i appreciate your sentiments. may god bless you. catholicose was, still is, willing to sign a joint declaration accepting the Patriarch and annex thereto all
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 10, 2002
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                    i appreciate your sentiments. may god bless you.
                    catholicose was, still is, willing to sign a joint declaration accepting the Patriarch and annex thereto all Supreme Court orders and the Constitution, personally signed on every page. The patriarch PERSONALLY found it satisfactory, but there were people on both sides who opposed. for every word we say against them they have two words to say against us, starting from saying that Mar Thoma was a kappiar( that is how they put it!!). the sensible thing to do now IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES AS THEY EXIST TODAY is to say whatever we want to say INSIDE the church. we have already made a number of educated people run away to Pentecostal groups etc.by not going to the Association we are opting out voluntarily from the malankara church, unless the Supreme Court would do a volte face andsay something they have not said so far. anyway the church is the body of Christ. God will guide.let us keep praying that His will be done.
                    TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 11:18 AM
                    Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting

                    schlomo,

                    with due respect to Babu Paul sir i would like him to clarify a few points here.

                  • Fr. John Kunjukunju
                    While agreeing with our respected son of the church my deep agony is that why people do not think seriously why well educated and active people born, bought
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 10, 2002
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                      While agreeing with our respected "son of the church" my deep agony is that why people do not think seriously why well educated and active people born, bought up, taught in the faith of the church is deserting it! Certain over enthusiastic people instead of finding sufficient reasons, simply brand them as ignorant, disobedient, cheater, selfish and so on while people who are fit to be called so remain in the fold and no one takes notice of it.
                      I have also some such story to tell.
                      Back in early seventy's  I wrote to the then catholicose, V Rev Paul Remban later Mor Gregorious, Editor of Malankara sabha weekly, Illustrated weekly and etc. Some of the members in this form know about it. I miserably regret for the words then I used out of my extreme interest and faithfulness to Patriarch. When understand realities are made known by experience, I hope every one would have enough to regret.
                      My appeal to everyone in Christ's love is that we Indians take servitude as our birth right. Submission is not servitude. So contain all divisive thought and work for unity and peace.
                      I heard someone say can SC dictate our faith, etc. Let them think that SC did not interfere voluntarily. We were the one who went to court and wanted its verdict. So let us respect its verdict and that is minimum courtesy. Moreover SC verdict says, "both parties agreed for unity". Those who say, "divide" mean that this statement is a lie? Fr John KK. 
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: DANIEL BABU PAUL
                      Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 10:42 AM
                      To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting
                       
                      i appreciate your sentiments. may god bless you.
                      catholicose was, still is, willing to sign a joint declaration accepting the Patriarch and annex thereto all Supreme Court orders and the Constitution, personally signed on every page. The patriarch PERSONALLY found it satisfactory, but there were people on both sides who opposed. for every word we say against them they have two words to say against us, starting from saying that Mar Thoma was a kappiar( that is how they put it!!). the sensible thing to do now IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES AS THEY EXIST TODAY is to say whatever we want to say INSIDE the church. we have already made a number of educated people run away to Pentecostal groups etc.by not going to the Association we are opting out voluntarily from the malankara church, unless the Supreme Court would do a volte face andsay something they have not said so far. anyway the church is the body of Christ. God will guide.let us keep praying that His will be done.
                      TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 11:18 AM
                      Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting

                      schlomo,

                      with due respect to Babu Paul sir i would like him to clarify a few points here.

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