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Re: Association Meeting

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  • dooley1112
    ... Metropolitan Mor Dionysious Thomas has declared his allegience to the Catholicate? And he is going to the Association meeting?
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 3, 2002
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      >Nicholavos thirumeni or even Thomas Mor Dionnasiose Thirumeni is
      >declaring allegience to catholica and going to the present
      >association meeting.

      Metropolitan Mor Dionysious Thomas has declared his allegience to the
      Catholicate? And he is going to the Association meeting?
    • John Philip
      I too had read the posting in the forum, I think what it was meant through this sentence was slightly different. The Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 3, 2002
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         I too had read the posting in the forum, I think  what it was meant through this sentence was slightly different.

        The Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church's decision at present is to not to include itself in the election process which is organized by Catholicose Mathews II.  The Catholicate designate Mor Dionysius Thomas fully endorses this view of the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church.

         

         

          dooley1112 <DOOLEY1112@...> wrote:

        >Nicholavos thirumeni or even Thomas Mor Dionnasiose Thirumeni is
        >declaring allegience to catholica and going to the present
        >association meeting.

        Metropolitan Mor Dionysious Thomas has declared his allegience to the
        Catholicate? And he is going to the Association meeting?




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      • Fr. John Kunjukunju
        I do not think it is wise to abstain from the election process, nor it is Christian attitude. Our attitude of insisting to define every bit of differences in
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 4, 2002
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          I do not think it is wise to abstain from the election process, nor it is Christian attitude.
          Our attitude of insisting to define every bit of differences in the court is totally unacceptable view as a Christian. We should in Christian spirit give up certain things that do not interfere with basic tenets of faith. Legalist approach is not a viable alternative. Why not heed to Biblical parameter to give up the worldly aspects, not to go before a secular judge and promote spirit of unity and amity which alone would in the long run bridge the gap created in the last one hundred years for which both groups are equally at fault?.  
          Certain people's claim of division is also unchristian attitude. We should try to identify more with our people rather than seeking to divide. Fr. John KK.    
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: John Philip
          Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 12:05 AM
          To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting
           

           I too had read the posting in the forum, I think  what it was meant through this sentence was slightly different.

          The Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church's decision at present is to not to include itself in the election process which is organized by Catholicose Mathews II.  The Catholicate designate Mor Dionysius Thomas fully endorses this view of the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church.

           

           

            dooley1112 <DOOLEY1112@...> wrote:

          >Nicholavos thirumeni or even Thomas Mor Dionnasiose Thirumeni is
          >declaring allegience to catholica and going to the present
          >association meeting.

          Metropolitan Mor Dionysious Thomas has declared his allegience to the
          Catholicate? And he is going to the Association meeting?




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        • DANIEL BABU PAUL
          I find a lot of ill-informed talk here on the church affairs. Without getting involved in the controversy let me recall some wellsettled points. 1. The Supreme
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 4, 2002
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            I find a lot of ill-informed talk here on the church affairs.
            Without getting involved in the controversy let me recall some wellsettled points.
            1. The Supreme Court declared in 1995 that
            a)there is only one church
            b)the Patriarch is the head but having created a catholicate he should exercise his powers only in consultation with the catholicose
            c)all metropolitans get the benefit of the status quo AS IN 95  IF THEY ACCEPT 1934 CONSTITUTION
            until the new managing committee comes
            2. The patriarch accepted the verdict. All others involved being Indians the verdict will bind them, Catholicose or Catholicose designate.All our Metropolitans have accepted the Constitution so that they could function as metropolitans until the Association met. The difference between Mar Dionysius and Mar Nicholavos is that the former declared it in court while the latter did it at devalokam.
            3.The present association is convened as per MUTUALLY AGREED terms accepted by court under the control of an Observer appointed by court based on agreement by both sides.It is a unique onetime opportunity to bring the devalokam group under the NOMINAL suzerainty of the Patriarch. No indian citizen has to say he respects SC verdict, it binds whether anybody likes it or not, so devalokam cannot say they do not accept the verdict just as we cannot say that we do not accept the Constitution upheld by the same verdict.Neither they nor we can say that they/we will accept those parts of the SC order which suits them/us!!!
            4.UNLESS the court says Malimat has failed in his duties the meeting on 20/3 will bind us all, whether we like it or not.We can of course leave Malankara church and be part of Simhasana Churches, EAE or Honavar Mission all 3 of which are directly under the Patriarch according to the 1995 verdict.However that will deprive us of our civil rights as members of the church(e.g. community quota admissions to medicine, engg, PG etc. etc.), how many people would want to do that is a matter of guess.
            5.If we refuse to accept that simple fact there would be only two alternatives left for us, viz. EITHER go to violent resistance and take to streets as in early 70s OR surrender our churches and start a new church, SYRIAC ORTHODOX CHURCH as they have decided to rename the church in Seema.The Pothanikkad experience holds lessons if only we would like to learn.That  parish in Angamaly went to the other side following the Supreme Court verdict and is now administered by the Catholicose faction although they are just a small minority; our people who form the majority attend their service but are treated as secondclass citizens in their own parish. That parish does not admit even the 3 metropolitans viz. Severios, Athanasius and Miletus.They say " wait till the Association is held". The old chapel of the Patriarch side is with Dionysius Thirumeni, of course, but access to main church as well as cemetery is lost for ever!
            They say Patriarch cannot be trusted, we say the Catholicose cannot be trusted, I know both and I can boldly say that they are both men of prayers and fasting and that both PERSONALLY want reconciliation and peace.
            Let us all pray that the church will prosper. Let us dedicate the coming Lent for that.
            My advice to young friends on both sides is to shed polemics and try to be more polite even where we disagree.
            May God bless our church and all its members.
            Long live Patriarch Zakka.
            TOTUS TUUS MARIA
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 3:59 AM
            Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting

            I do not think it is wise to abstain from the election process, nor it is Christian attitude.
            Our attitude of insisting to define every bit of differences in the court is totally unacceptable view as a Christian......
          • John Philip
            Dear SOCM forum members, Rev Fr. KK John wrote, Our attitude of insisting to define every bit of differences in the court is totally unacceptable view as a
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 5, 2002
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              Dear SOCM forum members,
               
               
              Rev Fr. KK John wrote, "Our attitude of insisting to define every bit of differences in the court is totally unacceptable view as a Christian". 
               
              My request to all the SOCM forum members is to recall that Parumala Thirumeni himself was  present in the court for 13 days continously to explain the faith & history of the Church. (Ref: Parumala Thirumeni's biography published by K I Vargheese Mapillai in 1903, page 30).  He thought it as a necessity, to argue for his faith & history. There what he tried to explain was that the same history & faith taught by the present Jacobites.  It was the 'Ext. 18' Hudaya Canon, that this great Holy father had presented in the court as the true version;  which according to the present Methran kakshi faction, is a manipulated version.  
               
              According to both the factions of the  Malankara Churches, Parumala Thirumeni was a great visionary.  If so, all who accepts Parumala Thirumeni as a great Holy father, must also accept the faith & history taught by him.  According to me, what Parumala Thirumeni tried to taught us will never be wrong.  If what he said is wrong, then he must not be considered as a Saintly Holy father. In these circumstances, inorder to continue in the same faith taught by Parumala Thirumeni, the history & faith of the Jacobite Syrians must also be acceptable to the present Methran Kakshi leadership.   If not, according to me, a unity between the Jacobites & Catholicose faction is impossible and not at all practicable.
               
              Now can anyone give a guarantee that Methran kakshi will ever change their attitude regarding the history & faith.  I don't think so. Remember in the official encyclopedia published by Methran Kashi faction a few years ago, Saint Mor Baselious Yeldo Maphfriyono is mentioned as a Nestorian bishop.  Is that acceptable to the Jacobites ?  Again the present Methran kakshi's contention is that all the Antiochean fathers who visited malankara between 17th centuary & 21st centuary came here with some hidden motives.  Everyone who had gone through the historical perspectives of both the factions, knows that there are many such contradictions, that was gradually developed all through the 20th centaury.  It is only because of these, a Jacobite Syrian Christian, who had gone through the history of the Church and who is not at all interested in any material benefits, cannot accept the present Methran kakshi leadership.
               
              John Philip
               
               
               
               

                "Fr. John Kunjukunju" wrote:

              I do not think it is wise to abstain from the election process, nor it is Christian attitude.
              Our attitude of insisting to define every bit of differences in the court is totally unacceptable view as a Christian. We should in Christian spirit give up certain things that do not interfere with basic tenets of faith. Legalist approach is not a viable alternative....
            • DANIEL BABU PAUL
              just a word. Yeldo Maphrian was declared saint by metran kakshi in 1947 in the same resolution in which they declared parumala thirumeni a saint. NOW they
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 5, 2002
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                just a word. Yeldo Maphrian was declared saint by "metran kakshi" in 1947 in the same resolution in which they declared parumala thirumeni a saint. NOW they remember both in tubden also. this is for information of any one who may care to know.TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 4:00 PM
                Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting

                 

                Dear SOCM forum members,
                 
                 
                Rev Fr. KK John wrote, "Our attitude of insisting to define every bit of differences in the court is totally unacceptable view as a Christian". 
                 
                My request to all the SOCM forum members is to recall that Parumala Thirumeni himself was  present in the court for 13 days continously to explain the faith & history of the Church.
              • Fr. John Kunjukunju
                I beg all to note that to me it seems the present problem is who shall hold the real estate. It has nothing to do with faith or history of church. I do agree,
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 5, 2002
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                  I beg all to note that to me it seems the present problem is who shall hold the real estate. It has nothing to do with faith or history of church. I do agree, Parumala Thirumeni did go to court, and under given circumstances it is justified too. I honestly believe that Thirumeni did never encourage such a trend. Such situation does not exists today. None of the issues that Mr John Philip mentioned is now a point in litigation. Malankara Methran is not an ecclesiastical position but peculiar to Malankara alone. I still hold going to litigation, whoever does under whatever predicament is unbiblical and unchristian. Fr John KK.  
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: John Philip
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 5:39 AM
                  To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting
                   

                   

                  Dear SOCM forum members,
                   
                   
                  Rev Fr. KK John wrote, "Our attitude of insisting to define every bit of differences in the court is totally unacceptable view as a Christian".
                • V Thomas
                  Dear Sir, We in India,have decided to not to particiapte in Association meeting. Period.! We are not worried about what may come.Our Niyukthabava will
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 5, 2002
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                    Dear Sir,
                    We  in India,have decided to not to particiapte in Association meeting.
                    Period.!
                    We  are not worried about what  may come.Our Niyukthabava will become
                    Mapriana of East.They may create problems in many churches.They may close
                    many of our churches,with help of police,court and administration.
                    .What ever left will be enough for us.(His grace is enough for us)
                    We will relay on God only and rebuild everything,with His help.
                    (Rev.K.K.John should remember how  a church was built,in Banaglore.
                    They have sent notice for that church also.Even if that goes  also we are
                    not prepared to change our faith and allegence to Partiarch.)
                    In the past when we were in problem we had H.G.Michel Mor Dinosyus.
                    Now,we have H.G.Thomas Mor Dinosyus.
                    For Kottayam we have H.G.Thomas Mor Themotheos ,who willnot sway with any wind that blow.
                    They all willl lead us.What we need is vigilence and prayer.Read.James.4:13-19.
                    Regards
                    vmt
                     
                    .
                  • J P
                    Dear SOCM members, In the present circumstances it is fact that there are certain limitations for the Malankara Jacobite Christians, as explained by Daniel
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 5, 2002
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                       Dear SOCM members,

                       
                      In the present circumstances it is fact that there are certain limitations for the Malankara Jacobite Christians, as explained by Daniel Babu Paul Sir.
                       
                      But still, I think it will be relevant, if we can recollect some events from the history.
                       
                      In 1653, the Malankara people vowed to fight against the Catholic aggression of the Portuguese at Mattancherry, which is popularly known as 'Koonan Kurisu Oath'.  The Holy Cross erected at the place of Oath & its adjoining land is now in the possession of Roman Catholics;  that is, the very people whom the then Malankaraites had opposed.  Inspite of loosing this sentimental place, many in malankara preferred to continue in the Orthodox faith.
                       
                      In the 15th centaury, the Portuguese, who were for the supremacy of Roman Pope, built St. Francis Church at Mattancherry.  Now this famous Church is with the protestant faction ie; with those who opposed the Roman Pope's supremacy and also who are against the veneration of Saints..  But inspite of loosing this church, the Roman Catholic faith still exists in the place.
                       
                      A church is a divine place of worship for all of us, but suppose some thing like an earthquake or similar happens -- the building will be destroyed.  But this is not the case of a 'Holy Church'.   The Church is build on faith, not on a stone or a particular name.   One's name or address is just to recognize him.  One's soul will not be different even if his name is changed.  So according to me, sacrificing one's faith is like ignoring his parents for some worldly possessions. 
                       
                      This is my view on the present crisis the Jacobite Syrian Christians are facing.
                       
                      Now before concluding, let me quote from the historical book, 'VENI VIDI VICI the story of an apostolic visit'  published in 1982, Ref: Page 37, ----- THE JUDGE MR. JUSTICE T CHANDRASEKHARA MENON ALSO SAID:   "AN OUT OF COURT SETTLEMENT BETWEEN THE PARTIES IS THE ONLY SOLUTION FOR A HAPPY ENDING TO THE SHARP CONFLICTS WITHIN THE CHURCH...."  I think this partucular quote of the Justice from the book of Dr.Babu Paul sir is even now relevant.
                       
                       
                      John Philip
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      DANIEL BABU PAUL wrote:
                      I find a lot of ill-informed talk here on the church affairs.
                      Without getting involved in the controversy let me recall some wellsettled points.
                      1. The Supreme Court declared in 1995 that
                      a)there is only one church
                      b)the Patriarch is the head but having created a catholicate he should exercise his powers only in consultation with the catholicose
                      c)all metropolitans get the benefit of the status quo AS IN 95  IF THEY ACCEPT 1934 CONSTITUTION
                      until the new managing committee comes
                    • dipu george
                      schlomo, with due respect to Babu Paul sir i would like him to clarify a few points here. if the so called catholicose is a man of peace wouldnt it have been
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 5, 2002
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                        schlomo,

                        with due respect to Babu Paul sir i would like him to clarify a few points here.

                        if the so called catholicose is a man of peace wouldnt it have been wise on his part to proclaim publicily his allegiance to the patriach .like wise why cant he and his bishops sign their oath of allegiance to the patriach.this public gestures alone would help cool down the tempers here.

                        if the so called catholicose wishes peace why did �they argue that they were a seperate independent church before the supreme court in the first place.so can his so called intentions be trusted..

                        being diplomatic is good but it takes courage and will power to say a spade is a spade.ur diplomatic statements here doesnt do much to convince our faithful brethren as to what the metran kakshis are upto.

                        the latest instance of the consecration of the mooron by the metran kakshis is another example .if i am correct then they have conveniently rejected some aspects of the process where the patriiach's name is mentioned. doesnt that make it uncanonical.how do we solve those things.probably such aspects are left to the people involved with it . i being a lay member have no authority to comment on such things but the point i would like to make is that ith fanatics on their side who were responsible for the split in 1974 it would be foolish to think they�would just be satisfied with the election .they have the killer instinct. after winning whatever concessions they get their next step is to split this church and declare their catholicose as the supreme head of the throne of st thomas!!!

                        this is the plain truth. it is money here and��nothing�else��which��� brought about such tragic circumstances.if i am correct the properties of the church runs into thousands and thousands of crores .does the syrian church in seema have such association? no !!�they dont but they function as any other church��recently��there�was a unanmous resolution that henceforth the bishops of the syrian orthodox church would legally transfer all their properties to the mother church.

                        it is to the church and not to an individual!!!!�the patriach being the head of the synod��which adopted this���unanimous� decision.�i� wonder�if the leaders here can��digest��� such wise decisions of our mother church there in the middle east.�

                        how can you expect us to reconcile ourselves with these metran kakshis. as a civil service officer you were obviously witness to their evil deeds during the seventies .

                        the latest public statements of the catholicose leaves no one in doubt� as to what his intentions are.

                        surely u cant ignore those statements are irrelevant.

                        i would be obliged if you ( we all respect you for your esteemed services and contributions for our holy church) could further comment on what the furure holds for us in clear and simple facts about the malankara association and supreme court ruling.�

                        DANIEL BABU PAUL wrote:

                        I find a lot of ill-informed talk here on the church affairs.
                        Without getting involved in the controversy let me recall some wellsettled points.
                      • V Thomas
                        Dear Jonachen, What is so unchristian in keeping our tradition and staying in allegiance with Patriach?The Christian love is not one way traffic.(Atleast when
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 6, 2002
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                          Dear Jonachen,
                          What is so unchristian in keeping our tradition and staying in allegiance
                          with Patriach?The Christian love is not one way traffic.(Atleast when we deal with these
                          zealous lot ,who is not bothered).What they want?They want our buildings? They can take it.
                          We need our faith and will stay in Patriarch side.Buying a few people and closing our church
                          and services-is it Christian love.?This is what they were doing all these years.
                          Is it correct for them to call the meeting as they like,disobeying the  verdict-is it Christian love?
                          To have a niyuktha bava is it correct for them?
                          .Then it is correct for us also..
                          Many in the forum says we shall surrender to them,just like that.When they stamp us,they keep quite.
                          As far our actions are concerned it is all unchristian,for them..
                          We have to believe in christian obedience also.They do not obey Patriarch(In fact they do not
                          recognise present HH) .We will  go as per HH directions,not by,catholicose directions.We not not believe
                          not obeying catholicose is lack of Christain love..
                          Love and regards
                          vmt
                        • J P
                          this is for information of any one who may care to know . I know Maphriyono Yeldho is remembered in the TUBDEN of Methran Kakshi just after Parumala
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 6, 2002
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                            " this is for information of any one who may care to know ".

                             

                            I know Maphriyono Yeldho is remembered in the TUBDEN of Methran Kakshi just after Parumala Thirumeni’s name from 2000.  But the question is that, why did these fellows in an official publication like encyclopaedia published from a seminary, mentions him to be a Nestorian.  It is a fact that these fellows wants to create an impression that all the Antiochean fathers are bad people and in the process, if they find anyone who is considered to be popular, then they will use some other interpretations for them so that they are not described as an Antiochean. 

                             

                            Take the case of Mor Gregorious Bawa of Vadakkan paravur.  He is recognized as the Metropolitan of Jerusalem diocese under the Syrian Jacobite Patriarch of Antioch and only because of this affiliation with the Syrians, he is being criticized by many of the present day Methran kakshi historians.  They claim that, he came here to absorb the local Church into the Antiochean fold.  But recently, some other so-called renounced scholars of this Methran kakshi, are trying to establish that Mor Gregorious bawa belonged to an Independent Jerusalem Church and he has no connection with the Jacobite Patriarch.  The Indian Orthodox Church’s strategy is that, first they use someone to interpret the history to suit their need and gradually the Church as a whole will accept this theory.  This is exactly what they were doing in the last centaury.

                            John

                             

                              DANIEL BABU PAUL <dbabupaul@...> wrote:

                            just a word. Yeldo Maphrian was declared saint by "metran kakshi" in 1947 in the same resolution in which they declared parumala thirumeni a saint. NOW they remember both in tubden also. this is for information of any one who may care to know.TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                             




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                          • J P
                            Rev Fr. KK John wrote- “None of the issues that Mr John Philip mentioned is now a point in litigation”. I can’t agree with that statement. For me faith
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 6, 2002
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                               Rev Fr. KK John wrote- “None of the issues that Mr John Philip mentioned is now a point in litigation”.

                               

                              I can’t agree with that statement.  For me faith & history is the most important thing.  In the present litigation, if the Jacobites surrender to the wishes of Methran faction, then I am 100 % sure that, within a very short period we will have to accept their interpretations to history.  What I said is a reality not a myth.

                              John Philip




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                            • Fr. John Kunjukunju
                              To my knowledge Dr KM George, orthodox spokesman, declared that they are ready to accord deserving honor to Patriarch. I also heard that the same thing the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 6, 2002
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                                To my knowledge Dr KM George, orthodox spokesman, declared that they are ready to accord deserving honor to Patriarch. I also heard that the same thing the catholicose gave in writing to about 30 Kottayam clergies who met him last month. Can you please verify that news? If it is correct it addresses our concerns, right? Love, Johnachan. 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: V Thomas
                                Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:17 AM
                                To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting
                                 
                                Dear Jonachen,
                                What is so unchristian in keeping our tradition and staying in allegiance
                                with Patriach?The Christian love is not one way traffic.(Atleast when we deal with these
                                zealous lot ,who is not bothered).What they want?They want our buildings? They can take it.
                                We need our faith and will stay in Patriarch side.Buying a few people and closing our church
                                and services-is it Christian love.?This is what they were doing all these years.
                                Is it correct for them to call the meeting as they like,disobeying the  verdict-is it Christian love?
                                To have a niyuktha bava is it correct for them?
                                .Then it is correct for us also..
                                Many in the forum says we shall surrender to them,just like that.When they stamp us,they keep quite.
                                As far our actions are concerned it is all unchristian,for them..
                                We have to believe in christian obedience also.They do not obey Patriarch(In fact they do not
                                recognise present HH) .We will  go as per HH directions,not by,catholicose directions.We not not believe
                                not obeying catholicose is lack of Christain love..
                                Love and regards
                                vmt


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                              • Fr. John Kunjukunju
                                I see all the said things are right and apt. But I have a question and that is; Do you really believe, or are you sure, the Jacobytes with its present head,
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 6, 2002
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                                  I see all the said things are right and apt.
                                  But I have a question and that is;
                                  Do you really believe, or are you sure, the Jacobytes with its present head, the Patriarch still uphold the 'Koonan Cross Sathyam'? To my knowledge that faith stands abdicated by the Head.
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: J P
                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 12:50 AM
                                  To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Daniel Babu Paul - Association Meeting
                                   

                                   Dear SOCM members,

                                   
                                  In the present circumstances it is fact that there are certain limitations for the Malankara Jacobite Christians, as explained by Daniel Babu Paul Sir.
                                   
                                  But still, I think it will be relevant, if we can recollect some events from the history.
                                   
                                  In 1653, the Malankara people vowed to fight against the Catholic aggression of the Portuguese at Mattancherry, which is popularly known as 'Koonan Kurisu Oath'.......
                                • J P
                                  Dear SOCM members, Fr. John Kunjukunju wrote to me--- I see all the said things are right and apt My reply: - Thanks very much. Fr. John Kunjukunju
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 7, 2002
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                                     Dear SOCM members,

                                     
                                     
                                    "Fr. John Kunjukunju" wrote to me--- "I see all the said things are right and apt"
                                     
                                    My reply: -  Thanks very much.
                                     

                                    "Fr. John Kunjukunju" wrote --  "But I have a question and that is; Do you really believe, or are you sure, the Jacobytes with its present head, the Patriarch still uphold the 'Koonan Cross Sathyam'?"
                                     
                                    My reply: -  I strongly believe in our present Patriarch of Antioch & all the East, 'H.H Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas', who for me is a living Saint.
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    "Fr. John Kunjukunju" wrote -- "To my knowledge that faith stands abdicated by the Head".
                                     
                                    My reply: -   SORRY !!!!
                                     
                                     
                                    John Philip
                                     

                                     

                                    "Fr. John Kunjukunju" wrote:

                                    I see all the said things are right and apt.
                                    But I have a question and that is.....
                                  • Thomas Issac
                                    To all those who wanted to read the truth We don t beleive this Rev.Dr. K M George (a Catholicose faction spokesman) who is the principal of Kottayam
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 7, 2002
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                                      "To all those who wanted to read the truth"

                                      We don't beleive this Rev.Dr. K M George (a Catholicose faction spokesman) who is the principal of Kottayam Seminary.  His job is to praise the Patriarch in HH's presence (at Damascus) and when he returns he starts criticizing H.H and also tries to downgrade the universal Syrian Orthodox Church through many of their mouthpieces; if anyone have any doubt, please go through the periodicals published in the last few years from Devolokom Catholicate aramana. 

                                      Now in recent times,  to trap the Jacobite syrians, like many others in his Church, he too has given a superficial statement in a newspaper.  (His tactics is well known to the people of Kottayam).  But what we the Jacobite Syrians really wanted, is a written statement from the Catholiocse Mathews II regarding similar issues, which until now the Catholicose is reluctant to even respond.   When mediators like Oommen Chandy, (a Catholicose faction politician) contacted us, we the Jacobite Church, again and again requested for an amicable solution.   But the 'official' Catholicose faction's reply was that "we accept all these, but first you (Jacobites) participate in the election conducted by our Catholicose, after that we will consider....".  From this very statement of Catholicose faction leadership, it is very clear that they are not at all interested in real peace, but what their leadership wanted is just to trap the Jacobites Syrian Christians, just as they had done in 1950's, 60' & 70's.  Remember the Catholicos faction has send notices to every Simhasana Churches & E.A.E churches, all of which as per the Supreme Court order, is under the direct juridisction of the Patriarch of Antioch and are not at all included in the Malankara Association.  Are they(Catholicos faction) doing all these according to the Supreme Court order ?  Can anyone, ever rely the present Catholicose faction leadership? 

                                      About the meeting of Kottayam clergies with Catholicose Mathews II -  In reality, only 2 Priests met the Catholiocose at Devolokom, 2 others where there to support them and these four priests together requested the support of other clergies of the diocese.  Among the above said priests, one fellow is already a supporter of the Catholicose faction for the last few years.   Three more were were ready to accept the Catholicose, but only subject to certain conditions such as that, 'the Syrian Church as a whole must accept the Catholicose faction'. 

                                      But in the 'Diocesean Pothuyogam' (membership of 63 churches) held on 24th Januaray, the entire people strongly opposed these ideas of a very few clergies, so they (the above mentioned 7 clergies) have to drop the idea (Details are available at the diocesean headquareters).  After that every church has given a letter signed by the respective PARISH PRIESTS, addressed to the diocesean bishop His Grace Mor Thimotheous Thirumeni, the Catholicos designate H B Mor Dionysius Thomas and other responsible authorities, declaring that, under the present circumstances they are not at all willing to be trapped into the association organized for the Catholicose faction.   

                                      Thus in reality only two met the Catholicos, but when the news reached america, someone intentionally multipled it with 15.  Above all, the two priests who met the Catholiose, hadn't till now signed or submitted any papers to the Devolokom Catholicose. One among them owns a Church by himself, but he had already declared that under no circumstances, he will hand over the church to the Catholicos faction.

                                      This is the fact.  If anyone have any doubt about the authenticity of what we explained, you can check the signed papers submitted by the Priests & the churches to our Metropolitan, that are avaialable at the Cathedral Church,  Tel: No.564490.   We are forced to write all these, because at present, many are trying to demoralize the Jacobite Church through false informations published in many forums and their only intention is to trap the Jacobite Syrian Christians into the Catholicose faction's fold through false propaganda.  These types of tactics by the Catholicose faction leadership will continue until March 20th.  So be careful !!!

                                       

                                      Malankara Voice 

                                       

                                       

                                        "Fr. John Kunjukunju" wrote:

                                      To my knowledge Dr KM George, orthodox spokesman, declared that they are ready to accord deserving honor to Patriarch. I also heard that the same thing the catholicose gave in writing to about 30 Kottayam clergies who met him last month. Can you please verify that news? If it is correct it addresses our concerns, right? Love, Johnachan......
                                    • V Thomas
                                      Dear Achen, What is deserving honour?They accept Patriarch only as per constitution.The constitution says for the Patriarchs ordination Catholoca is must.Hence
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Feb 7, 2002
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                                        Dear Achen,
                                         
                                        What is deserving honour?They accept Patriarch only as per constitution.The constitution says
                                        for the Patriarchs ordination Catholoca is must.Hence present,Partarch is not recognized
                                        as per constitution.After an association conducted some how,when catholica is made Malankara Metropolitan,
                                        this is what they will say.Once cheated in1958  we must be real gullible do repeat the same mistake.
                                        The Association notice itself says to 'declare Catholica as Malankara Metropolitan' ,not to elect one.
                                         
                                        Many political and religious dignitories tried(HG Cyril Mor Basaeleos,President
                                        catholic Bishops council also tried) to arrange a meeting between Patriarch and Catholicos during HH visit to
                                        Chingavanam-at least tea together.Orthodox leadership refused , for the same reason.(If they have to recognise
                                        Patriarch,HH may have to be reordained.!!!)
                                        When it comes to the core no spokesman is there.They will float many statements.Newsflashes about mediation
                                        by YMCA,Eccuminical forums,leading persons will come and all failed because of Jacobites obstinacy.Hvae they moved an inch?
                                        This is all propaganda  to confuse our people.
                                        You said situation has changed.? How is that?We were seperated based on the issue of St.Thomas Throne.
                                        (The question of Swayam serhatham)They still hold on to it.They filed  a case saying 1054 churches are theirs and this
                                        association is based on verdict of that case.Now they have 1500 churches,including our church in Bangalore in the list.
                                        That is the difference.There is no change other than few more Metropolitans has changed over to the other side.
                                        love and regards
                                        vmt
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 3:48 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting

                                        To my knowledge Dr KM George, orthodox spokesman, declared that they are ready to accord deserving honor to Patriarch. I also heard that the same thing the catholicose gave in writing to about 30 Kottayam clergies who met him last month. Can you please verify that news? If it is correct it addresses our concerns, right? Love, Johnachan. 
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: V Thomas
                                        Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:17 AM
                                        To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting
                                         
                                        Dear Jonachen,
                                        What is so unchristian in keeping our tradition and staying in allegiance
                                        with Patriach?The Christian love is not one way traffic.(Atleast when we deal with these
                                        zealous lot ,who is not bothered).What they want?They want our buildings? They can take it.
                                        We need our faith and will stay in Patriarch side.Buying a few people and closing our church
                                        and services-is it Christian love.?This is what they were doing all these years.
                                        Is it correct for them to call the meeting as they like,disobeying the  verdict-is it Christian love?
                                        To have a niyuktha bava is it correct for them?
                                        .Then it is correct for us also..
                                        Many in the forum says we shall surrender to them,just like that.When they stamp us,they keep quite.
                                        As far our actions are concerned it is all unchristian,for them..
                                        We have to believe in christian obedience also.They do not obey Patriarch(In fact they do not
                                        recognise present HH) .We will  go as per HH directions,not by,catholicose directions.We not not believe
                                        not obeying catholicose is lack of Christain love..
                                        Love and regards
                                        vmt


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                                      • DANIEL BABU PAUL
                                        i appreciate your sentiments. may god bless you. catholicose was, still is, willing to sign a joint declaration accepting the Patriarch and annex thereto all
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Feb 10, 2002
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                                          i appreciate your sentiments. may god bless you.
                                          catholicose was, still is, willing to sign a joint declaration accepting the Patriarch and annex thereto all Supreme Court orders and the Constitution, personally signed on every page. The patriarch PERSONALLY found it satisfactory, but there were people on both sides who opposed. for every word we say against them they have two words to say against us, starting from saying that Mar Thoma was a kappiar( that is how they put it!!). the sensible thing to do now IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES AS THEY EXIST TODAY is to say whatever we want to say INSIDE the church. we have already made a number of educated people run away to Pentecostal groups etc.by not going to the Association we are opting out voluntarily from the malankara church, unless the Supreme Court would do a volte face andsay something they have not said so far. anyway the church is the body of Christ. God will guide.let us keep praying that His will be done.
                                          TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 11:18 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting

                                          schlomo,

                                          with due respect to Babu Paul sir i would like him to clarify a few points here.

                                        • Fr. John Kunjukunju
                                          While agreeing with our respected son of the church my deep agony is that why people do not think seriously why well educated and active people born, bought
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Feb 10, 2002
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                                            While agreeing with our respected "son of the church" my deep agony is that why people do not think seriously why well educated and active people born, bought up, taught in the faith of the church is deserting it! Certain over enthusiastic people instead of finding sufficient reasons, simply brand them as ignorant, disobedient, cheater, selfish and so on while people who are fit to be called so remain in the fold and no one takes notice of it.
                                            I have also some such story to tell.
                                            Back in early seventy's  I wrote to the then catholicose, V Rev Paul Remban later Mor Gregorious, Editor of Malankara sabha weekly, Illustrated weekly and etc. Some of the members in this form know about it. I miserably regret for the words then I used out of my extreme interest and faithfulness to Patriarch. When understand realities are made known by experience, I hope every one would have enough to regret.
                                            My appeal to everyone in Christ's love is that we Indians take servitude as our birth right. Submission is not servitude. So contain all divisive thought and work for unity and peace.
                                            I heard someone say can SC dictate our faith, etc. Let them think that SC did not interfere voluntarily. We were the one who went to court and wanted its verdict. So let us respect its verdict and that is minimum courtesy. Moreover SC verdict says, "both parties agreed for unity". Those who say, "divide" mean that this statement is a lie? Fr John KK. 
                                             
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: DANIEL BABU PAUL
                                            Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 10:42 AM
                                            To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting
                                             
                                            i appreciate your sentiments. may god bless you.
                                            catholicose was, still is, willing to sign a joint declaration accepting the Patriarch and annex thereto all Supreme Court orders and the Constitution, personally signed on every page. The patriarch PERSONALLY found it satisfactory, but there were people on both sides who opposed. for every word we say against them they have two words to say against us, starting from saying that Mar Thoma was a kappiar( that is how they put it!!). the sensible thing to do now IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES AS THEY EXIST TODAY is to say whatever we want to say INSIDE the church. we have already made a number of educated people run away to Pentecostal groups etc.by not going to the Association we are opting out voluntarily from the malankara church, unless the Supreme Court would do a volte face andsay something they have not said so far. anyway the church is the body of Christ. God will guide.let us keep praying that His will be done.
                                            TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 11:18 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Association Meeting

                                            schlomo,

                                            with due respect to Babu Paul sir i would like him to clarify a few points here.

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