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Re: [SOCM-FORUM] My concespt of unity:

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  • Fr. John Kunjukunju
    Best luck ... From: V Thomas Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:00 AM To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] My concespt of unity: Dear Sir, My
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 1, 2002
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      Best luck 
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: V Thomas
      Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:00 AM
      To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] My concespt of unity:
       
      Dear Sir,
      My cocept of unity is -we shall separate  as brothers and stay as two  brotherly(sahodara) churches.
      Since accepting Patriarch is difficult for Kottayam leadership and the Jacobites,
      cannot imagine  a church without Patriarch s unity is difficult.The trial for unity will not be fruitful,
      also in the conept s of st Peters lineage and st.Thomas lineage.
      Property can be divided on broad give and take principle.
      Outside this faction we can unite   in the greater name of chritianity ...this is necessary
      as the concept of united church-manavtty-before second coming.
      Regards


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    • DANIEL BABU PAUL
      SC verdict will require amendment irst if there has to be separation. please contact Cori Pathickal , ++ 91 484 522694 TOTUS TUUS MARIA ... From: V Thomas To:
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 4, 2002
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        SC verdict will require amendment irst if there has to be separation. please contact Cori Pathickal , ++ 91 484 522694
        TOTUS TUUS MARIA
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: V Thomas
        Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 5:23 PM
        Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] My concespt of unity:

        Dear Sir,
        My cocept of unity is -we shall separate  as brothers and stay as two  brotherly(sahodara) churches.
        Since accepting Patriarch is difficult for Kottayam leadership and the Jacobites,
        cannot imagine  a church without Patriarch s unity is difficult.The trial for unity will not be fruitful,
        also in the conept s of st Peters lineage and st.Thomas lineage.
        Property can be divided on broad give and take principle.
        Outside this faction we can unite   in the greater name of chritianity ...this is necessary
        as the concept of united church-manavtty-before second coming.
        Regards


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        SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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      • V Thomas
        Dear Sir, Do the Kottayam catholicose ,recognise the Patriarch?Can you confirm? As per constitution the Patriarch who has been ordained in the absense of
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 6, 2002
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          Dear Sir,
           
          Do the Kottayam  catholicose ,recognise the Patriarch?Can you confirm?
          As per constitution the Patriarch who has been ordained in the absense
          of their catholicose,is not Partriarch.They all hold on to this view.
          As a person ,who has received  the blessings and  is decorated with
          respected ''ranks"from Patriarch, do you want us, to leave this patriarch,
          go with the catholicose who do not recognize Patriarch,for few Quotas?
          Oh,my God.!
          vmt
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 7:59 PM
          Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] My concept of unity:

          SC verdict will require amendment irst if there has to be separation. please contact Cori Pathickal , ++ 91 484 522694
          TOTUS TUUS MARIA
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: V Thomas
          Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 5:23 PM
          Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] My concespt of unity:

          Dear Sir,
          My cocept of unity is -we shall separate  as brothers and stay as two  brotherly(sahodara) churches.
          Since accepting Patriarch is difficult for Kottayam leadership and the Jacobites,
          cannot imagine  a church without Patriarch s unity is difficult.The trial for unity will not be fruitful,
          also in the conept s of st Peters lineage and st.Thomas lineage.
          Property can be divided on broad give and take principle.
          Outside this faction we can unite   in the greater name of chritianity ...this is necessary
          as the concept of united church-manavtty-before second coming.
          Regards


          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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        • DANIEL BABU PAUL
          i can confirm. but that is of no use. i also know what HH the Patriarch PERSONALLY feels, but I have no permission to put it all on internet!!! all i said was
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 10, 2002
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            i can confirm. but that is of no use. i also know what HH the Patriarch PERSONALLY feels, but I have no permission to put it all on internet!!! all i said was the factual position. we can remain with patriarch in simhasana churches, EAE and Honavar Mission.our church here in Trivandrum, e.g., is declared a simhasana church; i don't think any one would challenge that in court and so we can continue as it is, but we would not then be part of the Malankara Church as legally understood, that is all. i just pointed out the legal position. to this day i have not received Holy Communion from the other group since th excommunication of Mar Augen. but i think with unimaginative and immature leadership no society can face future confidently. so let us pray that our leaders on both sides have the wisdom and divine guidance.it would be a sad day if Pothanikkad fiasco is re-enacted all over malankara over the next few months or couple of years.a great man like Mar gregorios of Alwaye worked for the 1958 compromise because he knew that by going outside the mainstream we would be like the Chaldeans of trichur or the thozhiyoor church.Unfortunately that seems to be what we are heading for. it is easy to say all these polemics when you are safely perched in USA, but the average faithful man and woman in Kerala would suffer in the end.if we try violent means against court verdict it would be anti christian; we should willingly leave our parishes and build up everything anew.anyway i confine myself to Trivandrum parish and preaching wherever I am invited to speak the word of God.I have given my best years to our church and have now retired!
            i will be away for the next fortnight and will not have access to the internet.
            may god bless us all.
            TOTUS TUUS MARIA
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: V Thomas
            Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 3:04 PM
            Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] My concespt of unity:

             
            Dear Sir,
             
            Do the Kottayam  catholicose ,recognise the Patriarch?Can you confirm?
            As per constitution the Patriarch who has been ordained in the absense
            of their catholicose,is not Partriarch.They all hold on to this view.
            As a person ,who has received  the blessings and  is decorated with
            respected ''ranks"from Patriarch, do you want us, to leave this patriarch,
            go with the catholicose who do not recognize Patriarch,for few Quotas?
            Oh,my God.!
            vmt
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 7:59 PM
            Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] My concept of unity:

            SC verdict will require amendment irst if there has to be separation. please contact Cori Pathickal , ++ 91 484 522694
            TOTUS TUUS MARIA
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: V Thomas
            Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 5:23 PM
            Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] My concespt of unity:

            Dear Sir,
            My cocept of unity is -we shall separate  as brothers and stay as two  brotherly(sahodara) churches.
            Since accepting Patriarch is difficult for Kottayam leadership and the Jacobites,
            cannot imagine  a church without Patriarch s unity is difficult.The trial for unity will not be fruitful,
            also in the conept s of st Peters lineage and st.Thomas lineage.
            Property can be divided on broad give and take principle.
            Outside this faction we can unite   in the greater name of chritianity ...this is necessary
            as the concept of united church-manavtty-before second coming.
            Regards


            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          • BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW
            ... From the desk of: B ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M B.E.(CSE) 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD COCHIN-682 024 SOUTH INDIA
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 14, 2002
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              ---
              From the desk of:
              B
              ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
              BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
              B.E.(CSE)

              32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
              COCHIN-682 024
              SOUTH INDIA

              email:bibuphilipmathew@...
              :hellobibu@...

              NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.

              ______________________________________________


              To Barethobero Mr.D Babu Paul,

              Dear Sir,

              In your concept of Unity, you have mentioned about Mor Gregorios
              of Alwaye, is he Mor Gregorios Vayaliparambil ?.Can you explain
              about the compromise he made in 1958 to etablish unity .What is
              so great about this act ? The established peace stood only for
              few years, during this time secratery of mor Gregorios
              (Mor Theophilos-kottayam)who became bishop after his death
              laid hands on all institutions established by Mor Gregorios,
              one being Mor.Athanasious High School in Nedumbassery and later
              joined Methran kashi.This is the main job of Metran Kashi,
              conquering 1 by 1 all churches of jacobites by hook, book or crook.

              jacobite Church is the most democratic church in the world,
              Mulanthuruthy Synod(organised by Mor Gregorios of Parumala declaring
              loyalty to Holy Throne of Antioch in 1876) and leaning cross event
              of 1653 are the best examples,we adopted democracy even before India
              became one.Hence those who want to leave syrian Church and establish
              new throne of Thomas should leave the church and should also leave
              the properties of Jacobites when they leave if they are Christians.

              I see this as a never ending conflict, like India-Pakistan conflict,
              like Pak terrorism,Methran Kashi uses Subversion.HH.Patriarch is a
              true christian when catholicose insist on HH title,Patriarch uses
              'Servant of Servants of the Lord" title.Patriarch wants peace in India,
              so he is always forgiving but each time he forgives he is deceived like
              Pakistan towards India.Let me quote Daniel Defoe

              Whenever God erects a place of worship
              Devil always builds a chapel there
              And on examination it will be found
              That latter has a greater congregation

              Do you mean to say that the Antiochian ties should
              exclusivly remain only for Simhasana churches and all
              other churches should be under Catholicose of Methran Kashi.
              Is not this a tacit policy ?

              Do you see threat of disintegration ,in this division ?
              Is it what happened to Thoziyur church as you say ?

              Do you say that 'majority is always right' ?

              I dont agree with you,Mr.Babu Paul. Some say we are under Syrians,
              so what we have given Syrian church of Antioch the right to do
              priestly service for us, they have shown their sincerity
              and love of Christ in this alliance by even dying for
              preservation of so called Indian Church, which better priest
              can we get than Judo-christian genuine Syrian prophets . HH.Patriarch
              is a true christian so many bishops are betraying him for power
              and wealth , Pope would never tolerate all this ,catholic church has
              time only to confess of sins.HH.Patriarch never asked for temporal
              power in malankara, it is genuine syrians who at their self free
              will accept Throne of St.Peter. Even mor Gregorios of Parumala named
              church as St.Peter's Church, this is not a small thing.

              Jacobite Church may split again, syriac prayer says God ' refine the
              church by removing unwanted elements' as true root of Judo christian
              tribe of Israel.Hence in the end genuine Jacobites may be small , Abraham
              the father of nations had only Issac has his true heir.

              What does the so called Indian Orthodox church has apart from inheriting
              prayers, faith , customs , Syriac, black dress from Throne of Antioch ?

              We dont have to feel inferiority complex,jealous with the Holy Throne
              of Antioch,Only the truth will make free, the truth few finds.
              sincerely,
              Signed BPM
            • DANIEL BABU PAUL
              you are entitled to your views. Theophilos thirumeni was never secretary to Gregorios Thirumeni, just a factual correction.there are other inaccuracies but I
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 15, 2002
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                you are entitled to your views.
                Theophilos thirumeni was never secretary to Gregorios Thirumeni, just a
                factual correction.there are other inaccuracies but I have no intention to
                waste my time on correcting "closed minds"; sorry.
                TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW <bibuphilipmathew@...>
                To: <SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 12:02 PM
                Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] My concespt of unity:


                > ---
                > From the desk of:
                > B
                > ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                > BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                > B.E.(CSE)
                >
                > 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                > COCHIN-682 024
                > SOUTH INDIA
                >
                > email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                > :hellobibu@...
                >
                > NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.
                >
                > ______________________________________________
                >
                >
                > To Barethobero Mr.D Babu Paul,
                >
                > Dear Sir,
                >
                > In your concept of Unity, you have mentioned about Mor Gregorios
                > of Alwaye, is he Mor Gregorios Vayaliparambil ?.Can you explain
                > about the compromise he made in 1958 to etablish unity .What is
                > so great about this act ? The established peace stood only for
                > few years, during this time secratery of mor Gregorios
                > (Mor Theophilos-kottayam)who became bishop after his death
                > laid hands on all institutions established by Mor Gregorios,
                > one being Mor.Athanasious High School in Nedumbassery and later
                > joined Methran kashi.This is the main job of Metran Kashi,
                > conquering 1 by 1 all churches of jacobites by hook, book or crook.
                >
                > jacobite Church is the most democratic church in the world,
                > Mulanthuruthy Synod(organised by Mor Gregorios of Parumala declaring
                > loyalty to Holy Throne of Antioch in 1876) and leaning cross event
                > of 1653 are the best examples,we adopted democracy even before India
                > became one.Hence those who want to leave syrian Church and establish
                > new throne of Thomas should leave the church and should also leave
                > the properties of Jacobites when they leave if they are Christians.
                >
                > I see this as a never ending conflict, like India-Pakistan conflict,
                > like Pak terrorism,Methran Kashi uses Subversion.HH.Patriarch is a
                > true christian when catholicose insist on HH title,Patriarch uses
                > 'Servant of Servants of the Lord" title.Patriarch wants peace in India,
                > so he is always forgiving but each time he forgives he is deceived like
                > Pakistan towards India.Let me quote Daniel Defoe
                >
                > Whenever God erects a place of worship
                > Devil always builds a chapel there
                > And on examination it will be found
                > That latter has a greater congregation
                >
                > Do you mean to say that the Antiochian ties should
                > exclusivly remain only for Simhasana churches and all
                > other churches should be under Catholicose of Methran Kashi.
                > Is not this a tacit policy ?
                >
                > Do you see threat of disintegration ,in this division ?
                > Is it what happened to Thoziyur church as you say ?
                >
                > Do you say that 'majority is always right' ?
                >
                > I dont agree with you,Mr.Babu Paul. Some say we are under Syrians,
                > so what we have given Syrian church of Antioch the right to do
                > priestly service for us, they have shown their sincerity
                > and love of Christ in this alliance by even dying for
                > preservation of so called Indian Church, which better priest
                > can we get than Judo-christian genuine Syrian prophets . HH.Patriarch
                > is a true christian so many bishops are betraying him for power
                > and wealth , Pope would never tolerate all this ,catholic church has
                > time only to confess of sins.HH.Patriarch never asked for temporal
                > power in malankara, it is genuine syrians who at their self free
                > will accept Throne of St.Peter. Even mor Gregorios of Parumala named
                > church as St.Peter's Church, this is not a small thing.
                >
                > Jacobite Church may split again, syriac prayer says God ' refine the
                > church by removing unwanted elements' as true root of Judo christian
                > tribe of Israel.Hence in the end genuine Jacobites may be small , Abraham
                > the father of nations had only Issac has his true heir.
                >
                > What does the so called Indian Orthodox church has apart from inheriting
                > prayers, faith , customs , Syriac, black dress from Throne of Antioch ?
                >
                > We dont have to feel inferiority complex,jealous with the Holy Throne
                > of Antioch,Only the truth will make free, the truth few finds.
                > sincerely,
                > Signed BPM
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • J P
                Babu Paul Sir, Can you please explain the meaning of TOTUS TUUS MARIA John ... Download exciting Logos, Picture Messages & Ringtones for your mobile phone
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 5, 2002
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                  Babu Paul Sir,

                  Can you please explain the meaning of  "TOTUS TUUS MARIA"

                  John 




                  Download exciting Logos, Picture Messages & Ringtones for your mobile phonenew
                • DANIEL BABU PAUL
                  All for you, O Mary. these were words uttered by Pope JP II as he fell down when he was shot at. I have adopted it as my email signature. TOTUS TUUS MARIA ...
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 6, 2002
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                    All for you, O Mary. these were words uttered by Pope JP II as he fell down when he was shot at. I have adopted it as my email signature.
                    TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: J P
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 8:26 PM
                    Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] TOTUS TUUS MARIA

                    Babu Paul Sir,

                    Can you please explain the meaning of  "TOTUS TUUS MARIA"

                    John 




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                  • J P
                    Recently, I have read some articles criticizing the Church for referring it to as ‘SYRIAC Orthodox ’ instead of ‘SYRIAN’ Orthodox Church. I would
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 13, 2002
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                      Recently, I have read some articles criticizing the Church for referring it to as  ‘SYRIAC Orthodox ’ instead of  ‘SYRIAN’ Orthodox Church.  I would like to point out some of the points that came to my mind.

                       

                       

                      1.    According to the decision of the Church, the new reference ‘Syriac’ at present is applicable only to English speaking countries.  This I think is clearly explained during the announcement of the said decision.

                       

                       

                      2.    The motivation behind the changing of name from ‘Syrian’ to ‘Syriac’ in America (and English countries) was to distinguish between “Syrian migrants” who were the ex-citizens of Syrian Nation  and  the “Syriani Christians” who may be from not only Syria, but also from other countries.  The Church was forced to take this decision because of some ethnic problems, which is mentioned in the concerned encyclical of His Holiness and was implemented just before the American census of 2000.  Further it is also clearly explained in the concerned encyclical that the name change is applicable only in the English speaking countries.

                       

                       

                      3.    In Kerala, the Church will be continued to be referred as “SURIYANI” it being a   Malayalam speaking area;  similar is the case among the Arabic-speaking people of Syria where it will be mentioned as “SYRIANI” as before. 

                       

                      ie; in the Middle East, where the general public’s language is Arabic, the English word ‘Syriac’ will be continued to be referred according to their local language, same is the case in Kerala where the local language is Malayalam.

                       

                       

                       

                      4.    Again it is to be noted that the English term ‘SYRIAN’ came into existence only with the British influence over the Asian countries.   Before the 18th centaury, our ancient Suriyani Church doesn’t had a presence in any of the English speaking countries.  The migrations to western countries started only by the 19th centaury.  

                       

                      So earlier there wasn’t a slightest need for using an English word ‘Syrian’ by our Church in the Middle East or India.  Thus it is very clear that this English term ‘Syrian’ in our ancient “Suriyani Church” has only a few centuries influence.  In short, there is nothing like a sentimental or canonical support, to insist on using the term ‘Syrian’,  instead of ‘Syriac’  which is presently used by our Church in English speaking countries.

                       

                      So there is nothing wrong or extra-ordinary, if the Church is to be referred as ‘SYRIAC  Church’ instead of ‘SYRIAN’ in English. 

                       

                       

                      Also I think ‘Syriac’ is the apt translation of the Malaylam term ‘Suriyani’.

                       


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