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Re: Independence Craze

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  • thomas_pa1
    ... This is absolutely not true. Malankara church did help Anthioc materially, buy gifting gold, money etc. So, the claim that we didn t help at all is not
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 30, 2002
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      --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "daniel_reji" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:
      > Our people never once during all the
      > centuries of our association extended a helping hand, but instead
      > took advantage of the situation.

      This is absolutely not true. Malankara church did help Anthioc
      materially, buy gifting gold, money etc. So, the claim that
      we didn't help at all is not true.

      > Personally, I think that history, esp. in the context of the
      > Malankara Church, is used as a weapon selectively when it suits a
      > denomination's claim to antiquity. The Catholics claim that St.
      > Thomas Christians were always Catholic and make tenuous arguments to
      > support that. Malankara Orthodox claim historical independence,
      > as some people with extreme views in Jacobite faction claim that
      they were
      > always under Antioch. None of these positions are close to the
      > Even accounts of a single incident widely vary. For e.g., Catholics
      > claim that in Koonen Kurishu Sathyam, people took an oath only
      > against the Jesuits, the Indian Orthodox claim that they took an
      > of independence, where as Jacobite faction claims that they took an
      > oath to be under Antioch. I think the reality was closer to
      > the Roman yoke, but it is hard to tell.

      You are right.

      Peace to you.

      > In Our Lord's Love
      > Thomas Daniel (Reji)
    • V Thomas
      Sir, I would like to throw some light on Rev(Dr.)V.C Samuel.He hail from Omallur.Joined the manjinikkara seminary in Omallur.He got the early training under
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 31, 2002
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        I would like to throw some light on Rev(Dr.)V.C Samuel.He hail from Omallur.Joined the manjinikkara seminary in Omallur.He got the early training
        under Yulios bhava the then represetative of Partiarch.He left the seminary  in some unpleasant manner after quarelling with Bava and later was a priest in chengalam pally at Kottayam(Jacobite church)..Later he was a priest in Bangalore also.He was one of the early PhD of our church.While at Banaglore  got married.He then moved onto Ethioia and worked many years there.The last years were at Bangalore.He also has taught in Pazhaya seminary,some time..
        His marriage after becoming a priest was not welcome by many.He has written many articles on Marriage and celibacy.Brought in arguments that there were Bishops in our early church who were married.He went to Orthodox side.Initially he was accepted,there,well.They used his scholarly position to emaphasise the argument that ours was an independent church,from the begining..
        I have few years of association with him.But while appreciating his  scholarship we had some arguments on the independence  of the church.
        We held the argument that ,if we remove the Kuppayams of these independent indian bishops,  which we have inherited from Syrian orthdox church,
         they are more or less  are like our sadhus.But he was holding the veiw that our relation with syria is only after 16th centuary,that too through Persia.
        Another matter to be mentioned here is that H.G Paulose Mor Gregorios(Rev,Fr,Paul Vargese) was also at Ethiopia.He was also an accepted scholar,but there was contant enimity between them.Infact VCS was a critic of Thirumeni.Once he told us,Thirumeni has only show but not deep knowledge.But Dr.Paul Varghese achen was more popular among youth of that time.This as per VCS was cheap popularity.
        Now there is an organisation supported by his fans(who has worked in Ethiopia  during his tenure there and few others.There may be few  migrants to  UK  also)) ,working from Pathanathitta  to make him great.They publish his articles and articles onhim.Their veiw is-
        .1. VCS  was all time great scholar syrian orthdox group has seen.
        2.It is because of his research the syrian orthox church is respected.now.Early churches were treating us  as monophysite and after his reaserch papers only the western churches realised our real position.
        3.They have agenda also to hurt Jacobites in world forums.
      • dipu george
        ... and thomas says Unfortunately this is what the RSS is teaching today. They teach exactly the same quoting Rome. Aim of Rome was absolute control over
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 31, 2002
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            thomas_pa1 <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:

          --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., dipu george <dipu_george@y...> wrote:

          Dipu says:
          >!! there is no concrete evidence to prove st thomas had come to
          and thomas says

          Unfortunately this is what the RSS is teaching today. They teach
          exactly the same quoting Rome. Aim of Rome was absolute control
          over properties of Malankara Nazranis. We resisted this in history.


          .....well this what i have to say

          .....the RSS is very proud of u guys!!! remember what sudarshan said of your faction and the marthoma church.!!! for us ...our patriach  ( and i hope yours if u believe in him)has said thus - love your country only then can u love this church- and we as obedient children under our holy father will obey his statement.

          get lost mr thomas

          So, your plan is to change our tradition. Coptic Orthodox church
          is also an ancient church which gave many important saints. 
          We can even say that we have our present confession of faith
          because of them. The Coptic church records in her Synaxarium
          that St. Thomas indeed came to India and ordained bishop.

          2...at times u quote history and not traditions to suit ur view points.what are u trying to prove.

          i can point out lots of mistakes in our legends and songs about the coming of st thomas!!!! thats why

          all i am trying to say that here in the case of malankara it is because of tradition and traditon only that we can claim st thomas had come to india. india at that time comprised the whole of the indian subcontinent and not just malankara alone !! i hope u be careful in quoting augen because if u are at  fault in what u r saying then i pray that god forgive you !!! besides one need not guess the letters sent to antioch by devalokam (who had actually written it instead of HBaugen ). for that please read malankara malpan's sabha charithram for u would also read about HB augen's allegiance and statement about the holy syrian orthodox church.... how come his anniversary is commemorated with only a munninmel qurbana while that of his predecessor is celebrated by a pompous festivallasting three days !!!!!! u have villified that man of god not us...forcing him to abjucate his title while he was still  alive...thats the first in history of the tradition of catholicose!!!!

          remember the age of his predecessor when he died !!!! this was needed for u couldnt digest the unification of this church...dont teach us crap mr thomas !!! this is what i meant by the diabolic attitudes of those fanatics at devalokam.

          So there is no confusion about our local tradition. Awgen Bava
          was very strong in his criticism of Anthioc, when Anthioc sent
          a official letter that St. Thomas lacks in priesthood.
          Awgen Bava was an ascetic and guru of many  and did not carry
          anything with him.  So let us stop accusing Indian fathers
          that they plan to take away our properties.

          oh great !!! i believe u r trying to confer sainthood on your metran faction by saying this !!!

          i pity your hollow hopes in this ....good luck to you ... pity u cant point out further scholars in your faction  mr thomas.... cause u dont have one....the only eligibility ur faction have is in fighting and cunningness.....


          It is true that, being away from Roman empire (Byzantium), our
          ancient Christian community did not develop the model of church
          administration developed within Byzantium (I mean Patriarchates).
          When the church was small and confined to Byzantium, ecumenical
          councils, after discussing essential matters of faith, also spent
          some time to solve administrative problems. This is how Patriarchates
          came in to existence. The core of Ecumenical councils is the
          faith. Administrative/ disciplinary matters undergo change with
          culture and growth of church. But faith will not change.

          For example, Rome is strict that a priest should not be ordained
          from married men. But Nicea teaches that a married person can be
          ordained. So, can we say that Rome strictly follows this disciplinary
          decision of Nicea?  Today we are entering to more and more
          agreements with Rome.

          3..  well rome did have married bishops atleast till the time of the rennaissance ....i dont know when they adopted celibacy for their priests

          please mr thomas!! it would be nice if u leave this forum!!! go and start your factions forum and discuss these craps !!! we have our faith,our liturgy and traditions and culture to uphold.

          u need to consider inventing your own faith and history to lay the foundation of your faction's church.

          The model of Katholikkos developed outside Byzantium,
          especially in Armenia, Georgia, Persia  etc. Even today head
          of Armenian and Georgian churches are called Katholikkos.

          great......i cant take this crap any longer........the title of katholicose ur present leader currently holds is holy for many holy saints once adorned it like the likes of Bar Hebraus...by ur catholicose actions it has only brought disrepute to that once holy name!!!!! atleast their catholicoses are called His Beatitudes ...i believe that title seems too lowly for ur faction catholicose who prides himself in signing as His Holiness mathews2 !!!!

          Ethiopia had a different model.
          From ancient times they had the position of "Echege of the
          See of St. Tekle Haimanot". The highest native born clergyman
          of the Ethiopian Church was the Echege, who was the Abbot of the
          Monastery of Debre Libanos, founded in the 1100's by the
          Ethiopian saint Tekle Haimanot. I have been to Ethiopian parish and
          know how spiritual these people are. They remove shoes like us and
          prostrate before Icons. This "Echege" was the spiritual head of
          the church.

          Though this is an ancient church, they didn't develop the model of
          Patriarchate. That concept was introduced from Byzantine culture
          (through Alexandrian Coptic Orthodox church).
          This helped in giving a leadership to Geez/ Amharic speaking
          Ethiopian christians. They still remain the largest Christian
          country in the world. So a good administrative setup will only
          help a local church. But spiritually we are related to Anthioc
          (because of our historic relationship) and consider Patriarch higher
          in position that an Indian Katholikkos.

          In India, our ancient community had "Jathikku Karthavyan" who
          was the head of the church. Mar Thoma 1 was elevated by 12
          Indian priests. Then, adherents of Vatican wrote to Pope:
          "not only was Mar Thoma's ordination sacrilageous but that all his
          subsequent  acts were null and void". Today also we hear people
          criticizing Malankara church this way.

          ya ya ...the seeds of discontent!!!! one can read what u intend .....hmm...do i see the day when ur catholicose awards u with the title of chevalier.....for ur indepth analysis in discovering what we lacked in!!! the abbysinian church was under heresy ....whose concept of christ was what the muslims (muhammed's followers took refuge under this kingdom during their exile)believes in . it was the coptic church which through the grace of god removed that heresy from that church....hope ur faction wont be like the heretic abbysinian church then !!! good luck to you  

          dipu george

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        • V Thomas
          Dear All, It is meaning less to talk of RSS whenever you have no argument. (In fact if orthodox fanatics can be there ,Hindu fanatics(RSS) also can be there .
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 12, 2002
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            Dear All,
            It is meaning less to talk of RSS  whenever you have no argument.
            (In fact if orthodox fanatics can be there ,Hindu fanatics(RSS) also can be there .
            They all do the same thing.Try to destroy others,.Rewrite history,etc.)
            Dear Thomas_P,in fact , there is no proof in the scientific way.!
            But we all accept  and believe that St.Thomas came to India and
            converted the natives and Jews into Christianity,who were our forefathers.
            So also we  understand  and  accept that St Peter was the leader of
            Christ's disciples(from bible) and through him the church -priest hood lives.
            (through his actions later).
            Three  first synods are proven,matter.It shows clearly the ecclesiastical
            powers of Patriarchs and bishops. 
            First thing to Christian,is to accept Christ,his teachings ,his disciples their acts and teachings
            and teachings of our forefathers.So accept Patriarch first!
            It also a logical thing to say what we give can be taken back.by the owner.God has given us life
            and he  takes  it back.  .It is logic.If Patriarch has power to give priest hood to
            catholica, he has also power to take it back,if he is found undeserving.In that reasoning present
            catholica  does not have priest hood.(pattathvam)This is what every Jacobite believe.
            Is it clear?
            As per science,the life came  on earth billions of years back.Human beings
            took millions of years to develop to this status.They can carbon date fossils and say there is proof,.
            But we christains do not  believe that.We accept Jesus,Bible and church.
            One cannot travel in two boats at one time.If you are a syrian christain,the
            our priest hood came from Patriarch.Long live HH Zakka I and long live
            the Patriarchate!
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 12:01 PM
            Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Independence Craze

              thomas_pa1 <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:

            --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., dipu george

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