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Re: Independence Craze

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  • thomas_pa1
    ... This is absolutely not true. Malankara church did help Anthioc materially, buy gifting gold, money etc. So, the claim that we didn t help at all is not
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 30, 2002
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      --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "daniel_reji" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:
      > Our people never once during all the
      > centuries of our association extended a helping hand, but instead
      > took advantage of the situation.

      This is absolutely not true. Malankara church did help Anthioc
      materially, buy gifting gold, money etc. So, the claim that
      we didn't help at all is not true.


      > Personally, I think that history, esp. in the context of the
      > Malankara Church, is used as a weapon selectively when it suits a
      > denomination's claim to antiquity. The Catholics claim that St.
      > Thomas Christians were always Catholic and make tenuous arguments to
      > support that. Malankara Orthodox claim historical independence,
      where
      > as some people with extreme views in Jacobite faction claim that
      they were
      > always under Antioch. None of these positions are close to the
      truth.
      > Even accounts of a single incident widely vary. For e.g., Catholics
      > claim that in Koonen Kurishu Sathyam, people took an oath only
      > against the Jesuits, the Indian Orthodox claim that they took an
      oath
      > of independence, where as Jacobite faction claims that they took an
      > oath to be under Antioch. I think the reality was closer to
      rejecting
      > the Roman yoke, but it is hard to tell.


      You are right.


      Peace to you.
      -Thomas


      > In Our Lord's Love
      > Thomas Daniel (Reji)
    • thomas_pa1
      ... Unfortunately this is what the RSS is teaching today. They teach exactly the same quoting Rome. Aim of Rome was absolute control over properties of
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 30, 2002
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        --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., dipu george <dipu_george@y...> wrote:

        Dipu says:
        >!! there is no concrete evidence to prove st thomas had come to
        >malankara.
        >

        Unfortunately this is what the RSS is teaching today. They teach
        exactly the same quoting Rome. Aim of Rome was absolute control
        over properties of Malankara Nazranis. We resisted this in history.

        So, your plan is to change our tradition. Coptic Orthodox church
        is also an ancient church which gave many important saints.
        We can even say that we have our present confession of faith
        because of them. The Coptic church records in her Synaxarium
        that St. Thomas indeed came to India and ordained bishop.

        So there is no confusion about our local tradition. Awgen Bava
        was very strong in his criticism of Anthioc, when Anthioc sent
        a official letter that St. Thomas lacks in priesthood.
        Awgen Bava was an ascetic and guru of many and did not carry
        anything with him. So let us stop accusing Indian fathers
        that they plan to take away our properties.

        We have our local tradition about St. Thomas. Only we can
        maintain that.

        It is true that, being away from Roman empire (Byzantium), our
        ancient Christian community did not develop the model of church
        administration developed within Byzantium (I mean Patriarchates).
        When the church was small and confined to Byzantium, ecumenical
        councils, after discussing essential matters of faith, also spent
        some time to solve administrative problems. This is how Patriarchates
        came in to existence. The core of Ecumenical councils is the
        faith. Administrative/ disciplinary matters undergo change with
        culture and growth of church. But faith will not change.

        For example, Rome is strict that a priest should not be ordained
        from married men. But Nicea teaches that a married person can be
        ordained. So, can we say that Rome strictly follows this disciplinary
        decision of Nicea? Today we are entering to more and more
        agreements with Rome.

        The model of Katholikkos developed outside Byzantium,
        especially in Armenia, Georgia, Persia etc. Even today head
        of Armenian and Georgian churches are called Katholikkos.

        Ethiopia had a different model.
        From ancient times they had the position of "Echege of the
        See of St. Tekle Haimanot". The highest native born clergyman
        of the Ethiopian Church was the Echege, who was the Abbot of the
        Monastery of Debre Libanos, founded in the 1100's by the
        Ethiopian saint Tekle Haimanot. I have been to Ethiopian parish and
        know how spiritual these people are. They remove shoes like us and
        prostrate before Icons. This "Echege" was the spiritual head of
        the church.

        Though this is an ancient church, they didn't develop the model of
        Patriarchate. That concept was introduced from Byzantine culture
        (through Alexandrian Coptic Orthodox church).
        This helped in giving a leadership to Geez/ Amharic speaking
        Ethiopian christians. They still remain the largest Christian
        country in the world. So a good administrative setup will only
        help a local church. But spiritually we are related to Anthioc
        (because of our historic relationship) and consider Patriarch higher
        in position that an Indian Katholikkos.

        In India, our ancient community had "Jathikku Karthavyan" who
        was the head of the church. Mar Thoma 1 was elevated by 12
        Indian priests. Then, adherents of Vatican wrote to Pope:
        "not only was Mar Thoma's ordination sacrilageous but that all his
        subsequent acts were null and void". Today also we hear people
        criticizing Malankara church this way.

        We need to develop a broader understanding of our ancient
        church and view our present problem in Malankara in this context.


        -T
      • John Philip
        Dear SOCM members, Earlier I have taken a vow to stop arguing with this Thomas_Pal of Methran kakshi sabha, but his nature is to continuously harass our
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 30, 2002
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          Dear SOCM members,

           

          Earlier I have taken a vow to stop arguing with this Thomas_Pal of  Methran kakshi sabha, but his nature is to continuously harass our Church.  So once again I am forced to react in our SOCM forum to upheld our Church. I know he will continue to go on arguing from the points I mention in this article and if he can’t, he will raise some other matters.  But still…....

           

          Now something about his argument. This Thomas_Pal said Catholioca is very sincere in accepting the Patriarch. Is that true ?  If so why Catholica Mathews II published in Manorama a quarter page advt. in March 2000 (just before the Patriarch’s arrival to Malankara in 2000), mentioning that our present Patriarch is not the Malankara Church’s head and he cannot accept H.H Patriarch since H.H is not the genuine Patriarch according to his Methran kaksi Sabha and so on.  But at some other times and more particularly after the latest verdict, he says some thing different.  Why the Catholicose changes his attitude in every moment like a Kerala politician ?    Does he have any intention to trap the poor Jacobites as in 1958 ? (Late Paulose Mor Gregorious of Methran kakshi sabha had already warned about this particular trap of Methran kaksi in a statement published on 20th June 1995 –Ref:- Mathrubhumi daily). 

           

          Personally I don’t know whether Catholicose is responsible for all his talks, may be some others are influencing him, may be some fanatics in Methran kakshi. So before preaching peace, let throw out these undesirable forces (who ever may be) from Methran kakshi, to bring real peace in Malankara.   Then surely this Church will be like, as it was in the time of Parumala Thirumeni.  Let us pray for that.

           

          Anyhow whatever we say, a real peace at the moment is very difficult. It is a known fact that there is a historical divide between the two Churches. It cannot be solved by force. It is only because of these, we the Jacobites are wishing to remain separate atleast for this generation, so that in future we both will be in an ecumenical spirit, such as now between Marthoma Church and both our Churches.

          John Philip




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        • John Philip
          Dear SOCM Members, Recetly I have read a posting in this forum by one Thomas_Pal of Methran kakshi sabha, about the controversies of 1912, in which he said
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 30, 2002
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            Dear SOCM Members,

             

            Recetly I have read a posting in this forum by one Thomas_Pal of Methran kakshi sabha, about the controversies of 1912, in which he said that his sabha is still remembering the deposed Patriarch Abdul Mesiha etc.  For proving his arguements, he has given a link to the 'Syrian Orthodox Church history' quoted from a British Orthodox site.   Anyhow I am not going to use all the space for arguing that this is a intentionally manipulated article.  My request to every one like Thomas_Pal, is to read the true history of Malankara Church, instead of digging into the British Orthodox sites. Its better to read the history written by the Church’s scholars. Or it may be “His Story”, as said by one scholar. Atleast this Thomas_pal could have given a link to his sabha's site instead of British site. But unfortunately, his sabha's practise is to confuse others through such twistings and tactics.

             

            Now about the British Orthodox site that Thomas_pal have mentioned; I think in all probability, some one from Methran kakshi sabha influences the article in this link; Otherwise the people of Coptic Church may not have any knowledge about this matter. I think one Fr. V C Samuel has some role in it. His book is mentioned in the reference section.  (See the end of the article - in the reference section  --- ."C. Samuel, Truth Triumphs, An account of the Life and Achievements of Malankara Metropolitan Vattasseril Geevarghese Mar Dionysius (1986).")

             

            Earlier, in the end of another article about ‘Patriarch Mar Sevarious’ by the same British group, it is mentioned that the Fr. V C Samuel’s book about the Chalcedonian Synod will be reproduced soon by this British orthodox Church. And in many other Internet sites of this Church, they are quoting this Fr. V C Samuel again & again.

             

            So with all the circumstantial evidences, I think this article which thomas-pal have mentioned, is reproduced with the help of this Achen who is a member of Methran Kakshi sabha.  If it is so, then I am not wondering in seeing a distorted history, such as that reproduced in that British orthodox Internet site.

             

             

            Now again I doubt whether this thomas_pal have any connection with this achen ?  I am a member of Indian orthodox forum. I have seen many postings by this thomas-pal quoting & promoting this VC Samuel achen. That’s why I doubt. 

            (Someone has enrolled me in that forum without my knowledge- I don’t have a practice to unnecessarily provocate others through their forums. Recently without my knowledge, again this particular forum has enrolled me in another email address --kjphilip3@... from Malankara Church.org. This way they may be able to claim that their forum has so much number of members etc, as is done by some media tycoons in kerala -----So my advice to the promoter of SOCM forum, you also please use this method to increase the number of members.   This way you can also popularise your forum, eventhough it is unethical.)

             

            John Philip

             

             

             

             

             

             

            We the jacobites are still saying 

            :

            > There is only one church and there only one leader for it.  That is

            the

            > Patriarch of Antioch.  First of  all you accept that.

            > If you and your leader - catholica will not accept the H.H. the

            patriarch we

            > are also not ready to accept your so called catholica.  Let us  go

            > independently.

             

            I think from Kaatholikka Bava's side, he did his duty by

            sending a letter to H.H. Patriarch explaining the situation

            and accepting H.H. according to the consitution. So, we

            Malankara Church already accept H.H.

             

            But I have a personal ambition as a layman to see H.H. revoking

            the agreement with RCC. This agreement will mislead many

            members of our Malankara Church. Already many are going

            and communing there.  This must be revoked.

             

            Regarding establishement of Catholicosate in 1912, it was

            H.H. Abded Messiah who did this and H.H. is remembered

            every year. Later H.H. Patriarchs accepted this and

            our relationship with H.H. Patriarch of Anthioc is

            defined in the constitution.

             

            Each side has a story to tell aboutthis part of history.

            Kindly read the following about how this happened:

            http://www.uk-christian.net/boc/102f.shtml

            ----------------------------------------------------

             

             

             

             

             

             

             

             

             

             

                 We the jacobites are still saying 

            :

            > There is only one church and there only one leader for it.  That is

            the

            > Patriarch of Antioch.  First of  all you accept that.

            > If you and your leader - catholica will not accept the H.H. the

            patriarch we

            > are also not ready to accept your so called catholica.  Let us  go

            > independently.

             

            I think from Kaatholikka Bava's side, he did his duty by

            sending a letter to H.H. Patriarch explaining the situation

            and accepting H.H. according to the consitution. So, we

            Malankara Church already accept H.H.

             

            But I have a personal ambition as a layman to see H.H. revoking

            the agreement with RCC. This agreement will mislead many

            members of our Malankara Church. Already many are going

            and communing there.  This must be revoked.

             

            Regarding establishement of Catholicosate in 1912, it was

            H.H. Abded Messiah who did this and H.H. is remembered

            every year. Later H.H. Patriarchs accepted this and

            our relationship with H.H. Patriarch of Anthioc is

            defined in the constitution.

             

            Each side has a story to tell aboutthis part of history.

            Kindly read the following about how this happened:

            http://www.uk-christian.net/boc/102f.shtml

            ----------------------------------------------------

             

             




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          • V Thomas
            Sir, I would like to throw some light on Rev(Dr.)V.C Samuel.He hail from Omallur.Joined the manjinikkara seminary in Omallur.He got the early training under
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 31, 2002
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              Sir,
              I would like to throw some light on Rev(Dr.)V.C Samuel.He hail from Omallur.Joined the manjinikkara seminary in Omallur.He got the early training
              under Yulios bhava the then represetative of Partiarch.He left the seminary  in some unpleasant manner after quarelling with Bava and later was a priest in chengalam pally at Kottayam(Jacobite church)..Later he was a priest in Bangalore also.He was one of the early PhD of our church.While at Banaglore  got married.He then moved onto Ethioia and worked many years there.The last years were at Bangalore.He also has taught in Pazhaya seminary,some time..
              His marriage after becoming a priest was not welcome by many.He has written many articles on Marriage and celibacy.Brought in arguments that there were Bishops in our early church who were married.He went to Orthodox side.Initially he was accepted,there,well.They used his scholarly position to emaphasise the argument that ours was an independent church,from the begining..
              I have few years of association with him.But while appreciating his  scholarship we had some arguments on the independence  of the church.
              We held the argument that ,if we remove the Kuppayams of these independent indian bishops,  which we have inherited from Syrian orthdox church,
               they are more or less  are like our sadhus.But he was holding the veiw that our relation with syria is only after 16th centuary,that too through Persia.
              Another matter to be mentioned here is that H.G Paulose Mor Gregorios(Rev,Fr,Paul Vargese) was also at Ethiopia.He was also an accepted scholar,but there was contant enimity between them.Infact VCS was a critic of Thirumeni.Once he told us,Thirumeni has only show but not deep knowledge.But Dr.Paul Varghese achen was more popular among youth of that time.This as per VCS was cheap popularity.
              Now there is an organisation supported by his fans(who has worked in Ethiopia  during his tenure there and few others.There may be few  migrants to  UK  also)) ,working from Pathanathitta  to make him great.They publish his articles and articles onhim.Their veiw is-
              .1. VCS  was all time great scholar syrian orthdox group has seen.
              2.It is because of his research the syrian orthox church is respected.now.Early churches were treating us  as monophysite and after his reaserch papers only the western churches realised our real position.
              3.They have agenda also to hurt Jacobites in world forums.
               
              Reagrds
              vmt
               
               
               
            • dipu george
              ... and thomas says Unfortunately this is what the RSS is teaching today. They teach exactly the same quoting Rome. Aim of Rome was absolute control over
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 31, 2002
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                  thomas_pa1 <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:

                --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., dipu george <dipu_george@y...> wrote:

                Dipu says:
                >!! there is no concrete evidence to prove st thomas had come to
                >malankara.
                >
                and thomas says


                Unfortunately this is what the RSS is teaching today. They teach
                exactly the same quoting Rome. Aim of Rome was absolute control
                over properties of Malankara Nazranis. We resisted this in history.

                 

                .....well this what i have to say

                .....the RSS is very proud of u guys!!! remember what sudarshan said of your faction and the marthoma church.!!! for us ...our patriach  ( and i hope yours if u believe in him)has said thus - love your country only then can u love this church- and we as obedient children under our holy father will obey his statement.

                get lost mr thomas



                So, your plan is to change our tradition. Coptic Orthodox church
                is also an ancient church which gave many important saints. 
                We can even say that we have our present confession of faith
                because of them. The Coptic church records in her Synaxarium
                that St. Thomas indeed came to India and ordained bishop.

                2...at times u quote history and not traditions to suit ur view points.what are u trying to prove.

                i can point out lots of mistakes in our legends and songs about the coming of st thomas!!!! thats why

                all i am trying to say that here in the case of malankara it is because of tradition and traditon only that we can claim st thomas had come to india. india at that time comprised the whole of the indian subcontinent and not just malankara alone !! i hope u be careful in quoting augen because if u are at  fault in what u r saying then i pray that god forgive you !!! besides one need not guess the letters sent to antioch by devalokam (who had actually written it instead of HBaugen ). for that please read malankara malpan's sabha charithram for u would also read about HB augen's allegiance and statement about the holy syrian orthodox church.... how come his anniversary is commemorated with only a munninmel qurbana while that of his predecessor is celebrated by a pompous festivallasting three days !!!!!! u have villified that man of god not us...forcing him to abjucate his title while he was still  alive...thats the first in history of the tradition of catholicose!!!!

                remember the age of his predecessor when he died !!!! this was needed for u couldnt digest the unification of this church...dont teach us crap mr thomas !!! this is what i meant by the diabolic attitudes of those fanatics at devalokam.



                So there is no confusion about our local tradition. Awgen Bava
                was very strong in his criticism of Anthioc, when Anthioc sent
                a official letter that St. Thomas lacks in priesthood.
                Awgen Bava was an ascetic and guru of many  and did not carry
                anything with him.  So let us stop accusing Indian fathers
                that they plan to take away our properties.

                oh great !!! i believe u r trying to confer sainthood on your metran faction by saying this !!!

                i pity your hollow hopes in this ....good luck to you ... pity u cant point out further scholars in your faction  mr thomas.... cause u dont have one....the only eligibility ur faction have is in fighting and cunningness.....

                 


                It is true that, being away from Roman empire (Byzantium), our
                ancient Christian community did not develop the model of church
                administration developed within Byzantium (I mean Patriarchates).
                When the church was small and confined to Byzantium, ecumenical
                councils, after discussing essential matters of faith, also spent
                some time to solve administrative problems. This is how Patriarchates
                came in to existence. The core of Ecumenical councils is the
                faith. Administrative/ disciplinary matters undergo change with
                culture and growth of church. But faith will not change.

                For example, Rome is strict that a priest should not be ordained
                from married men. But Nicea teaches that a married person can be
                ordained. So, can we say that Rome strictly follows this disciplinary
                decision of Nicea?  Today we are entering to more and more
                agreements with Rome.

                3..  well rome did have married bishops atleast till the time of the rennaissance ....i dont know when they adopted celibacy for their priests

                please mr thomas!! it would be nice if u leave this forum!!! go and start your factions forum and discuss these craps !!! we have our faith,our liturgy and traditions and culture to uphold.

                u need to consider inventing your own faith and history to lay the foundation of your faction's church.

                The model of Katholikkos developed outside Byzantium,
                especially in Armenia, Georgia, Persia  etc. Even today head
                of Armenian and Georgian churches are called Katholikkos.

                great......i cant take this crap any longer........the title of katholicose ur present leader currently holds is holy for many holy saints once adorned it like the likes of Bar Hebraus...by ur catholicose actions it has only brought disrepute to that once holy name!!!!! atleast their catholicoses are called His Beatitudes ...i believe that title seems too lowly for ur faction catholicose who prides himself in signing as His Holiness mathews2 !!!!

                Ethiopia had a different model.
                From ancient times they had the position of "Echege of the
                See of St. Tekle Haimanot". The highest native born clergyman
                of the Ethiopian Church was the Echege, who was the Abbot of the
                Monastery of Debre Libanos, founded in the 1100's by the
                Ethiopian saint Tekle Haimanot. I have been to Ethiopian parish and
                know how spiritual these people are. They remove shoes like us and
                prostrate before Icons. This "Echege" was the spiritual head of
                the church.

                Though this is an ancient church, they didn't develop the model of
                Patriarchate. That concept was introduced from Byzantine culture
                (through Alexandrian Coptic Orthodox church).
                This helped in giving a leadership to Geez/ Amharic speaking
                Ethiopian christians. They still remain the largest Christian
                country in the world. So a good administrative setup will only
                help a local church. But spiritually we are related to Anthioc
                (because of our historic relationship) and consider Patriarch higher
                in position that an Indian Katholikkos.

                In India, our ancient community had "Jathikku Karthavyan" who
                was the head of the church. Mar Thoma 1 was elevated by 12
                Indian priests. Then, adherents of Vatican wrote to Pope:
                "not only was Mar Thoma's ordination sacrilageous but that all his
                subsequent  acts were null and void". Today also we hear people
                criticizing Malankara church this way.

                ya ya ...the seeds of discontent!!!! one can read what u intend .....hmm...do i see the day when ur catholicose awards u with the title of chevalier.....for ur indepth analysis in discovering what we lacked in!!! the abbysinian church was under heresy ....whose concept of christ was what the muslims (muhammed's followers took refuge under this kingdom during their exile)believes in . it was the coptic church which through the grace of god removed that heresy from that church....hope ur faction wont be like the heretic abbysinian church then !!! good luck to you  


                dipu george




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              • V Thomas
                Dear All, It is meaning less to talk of RSS whenever you have no argument. (In fact if orthodox fanatics can be there ,Hindu fanatics(RSS) also can be there .
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 12, 2002
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                  Dear All,
                   
                  It is meaning less to talk of RSS  whenever you have no argument.
                  (In fact if orthodox fanatics can be there ,Hindu fanatics(RSS) also can be there .
                  They all do the same thing.Try to destroy others,.Rewrite history,etc.)
                  Dear Thomas_P,in fact , there is no proof in the scientific way.!
                  But we all accept  and believe that St.Thomas came to India and
                  converted the natives and Jews into Christianity,who were our forefathers.
                  So also we  understand  and  accept that St Peter was the leader of
                  Christ's disciples(from bible) and through him the church -priest hood lives.
                  (through his actions later).
                  Three  first synods are proven,matter.It shows clearly the ecclesiastical
                  powers of Patriarchs and bishops. 
                  First thing to Christian,is to accept Christ,his teachings ,his disciples their acts and teachings
                  and teachings of our forefathers.So accept Patriarch first!
                  It also a logical thing to say what we give can be taken back.by the owner.God has given us life
                  and he  takes  it back.  .It is logic.If Patriarch has power to give priest hood to
                  catholica, he has also power to take it back,if he is found undeserving.In that reasoning present
                  catholica  does not have priest hood.(pattathvam)This is what every Jacobite believe.
                  Is it clear?
                  As per science,the life came  on earth billions of years back.Human beings
                  took millions of years to develop to this status.They can carbon date fossils and say there is proof,.
                  But we christains do not  believe that.We accept Jesus,Bible and church.
                  One cannot travel in two boats at one time.If you are a syrian christain,the
                  our priest hood came from Patriarch.Long live HH Zakka I and long live
                  the Patriarchate!
                  Regards
                  vmt
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 12:01 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: Independence Craze

                    thomas_pa1 <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:

                  --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., dipu george

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