Re: Are we fanatics??? - Reply to Aley John and other
- Dear Aley John and others,
Your concern on all the points raised seems to be very relevant.
It is true that we are spending crores of rupees for cases. You
have rightly pointed it too. But the problem with many persons
is that they are only seeing one side of the coin.
The Jacobites are a people who are defending for their existence.
Some may think that since we are all Christians we must always take
a policy to avoid issues even by giving up everything. Being a human
being I cant always agree with that. Take the case of Kunnamkulam
Arthat Simhasana church. It was built by Saintly Sleeba Mar Osthathios
Bava in a land donated to the Holy See by a group of people who found
it difficult to carry on their daily Spiritual needs in their parent
church. Bavas silent prayers helped to construct a church there and
he was buried here and for lakhs of people this is a Holy place. But
after the farce unity of 1958, the opposite group started to create
problems in that church by trying to bring it under the direct control
of the Malankara Metropolitan who was also the Catholicos then.
Former Catholicos Baselios Geevarghese II even dared to enter this
Church inorder to take control of the Church and its properties. He
was then accompanied by a strong police force against the kind request
of the people who were members of that Church. The problems started
at that time continues even now. At present while 1000 odd familes
are Jacobites, there are only less than 13 who are siding with the
opposite group. Moreoever there are 2 large Churches and 5 small
capels for the opposite group very near to this Simhasana Church.
(The main Church which is in total control of opposite group is
just 1/2 a kilometer away from the Simhasana Church) While most
of the opposite group have no objection in stopping the cases against
the Jacobites it is the very who are in the leadership of opposite
group who are continuing with the cases. While all including those
in opposite group call the Church as Bavas Pally or Simhasana Church,
the very few in methran faction call it Arthat Puthen pally with the
intention to mix it with the IOC churches. Malayala Manorama is the
group which helps to propogate this usage by giving the name of the
Church as Arthat Puthen Pally in their Calendars published every year.
I have expressed so much to point out the malefic intentions of the
opposite group. Now they have filed another case in Supreme Court
against even the Simhasana Churches claiming that there are no such
Churches in Malankara. Every other persons knows that there are many
Simhasana Churches like Majanikkara, Perumpally, Soonoro at Ekm.,
Kottayam, Kunnamkulam, Malecurisu and many more. But those who conduct
the cases for the opposite group cant agree with this. They want to
squeeze the Jacobites out of their churches. For that their Catholicose
Mathews II is signing many cheques running to crores of rupess which he
mentioned in his jubilee functions at Kottayam. (here he actually tried to
get sympathy by saying so, but the common man understood who is the culprit)
Like in the major case, the Simhasana churches are now forced to engage an
advocate in SC to defend the case. This advocate may not be in par with
Adv. Nariman of opposite group, but whatelse can we do with our limited
resources. We can of course avoid defending, but what will then happen ?
we will just loose all our Churches which our forefathers constructed.
In many cases they have built churches after they have been thrown out
of their parent churches. But now with the help of a very few parishioners,
in most cases 4 or 5 in a Church of 1000 odd familes, the opposite group
is creating problems and they are spending crores just to take control of
the property of the poor Jacobites.
My kind question to those who advice us to stop defending the cases in
court is, Are there anyone who are ready to leave their home if one of
their relatives make an unrealistic claim of the house. I dont think
anyone will simply give up their claim even if they loose their legal
rights. They will continue to defend until their last. That is even by
mortgaging all the other properties. The people, who create troubles,
may sometimes seems to be successful with the help of crores of rupees,
but this victory will not be the end of everything. It is just the
beginning. Those who suffer the most will have the last say. I am
confident in that. I believe that the God is always with those who
suffers and not with those who spend crores of rupees.
- hello Aley John,
i read ur letter, i am very much thanks towards u.because u
taught me more to pray.u said more about commonsense, but one
thing is to remember human being's commonsense can't overcome
one think to remember don't mix faith with other like politics and
other relations. holy father Yakoob 3rd only ordered don't
participate in the sacraments(koodasakal) of any vedavipareethical
not say about human, business and other relations. why u think
u understand the syrian fathers are not "mad" with church and not
kill any one who aganist them but they only keep the holy faith
and ready to die for that. to save their soul and others. no one
make any pressure to change the only fact is If any one believe
and he/she needs then they can enter into the church other wise
u think i am "mad" with church. don't think like this. i am a
faithful believer and do my duties towards church. i have many
friends in different religions and different churches. i visited
the houses of some of them also.did u read mar yeldho bava's
history. bava wanted the nambootiri to direct him to a church. he
helped bava.then what happened? he understood bava is a saint, by
bava's activites.through that he believe bava and he said about
his sisters pain and so and so.(not explain in detail.)
here what is to understand ? a good follower's duty. through faith
bava make him a believer.
again u think i am shouting everybody who are aganist our
church.??? , i am at piravom BPC college(our college)
i have many friends there. also at the hostel we are from
different religions. also from different churches.but any way i
can't raised any question or anything about their or our church to
but one thing i prayed to God morn and eve. some of our church
members met me and discuss about our church and faith but others
don't know about this discussions.
one day an indian orthodox member came to room and shout this
that so and so. at the begining i don't say any word. some of our
church faithfuls try to protest. after his shouting i took the
holy bible and wants him to read some portions. he reject then i ask 1
question and said some important statements only. he can't able to
answer and he left the room. u say who make problems?? who violate
disipline and decency????
i cut my class and attended the puthencruz meeting. after i
reached college many of our faitfuls shouted at me why i didn't
took permission from principal and took them also. i asked them if
any one is interested he must participate his own risk. if it take
as a college issue that may make problems in college.(rumers or
some other) any way. after that some of the opposite faction
members came and shout they will caught all parishes and never allow
yours dead body to burry so and so. i only told u can't do any thing
upon our church.
whatever happens i am not ready to move from Holy ANTIOCH.
also i told to them u follow ur faith and allow others to follow
u say my decision or their is correct?? who is making problem???
after 9 pm. one of the fellow came into my room and said "i don't
know what is the real history behind this problems??? please tell
me what happened?" only at that time i opened my mouth to explain
the faith to an oppossion member.(the time he wants to know) atlast
he said their party is doing wrong. i think this is the commonsense
not mine but God's activity.
u say abt marriage and other needs commonsense. but if God's
activites can destroy this plan(from commonsense)then what is the use.
now i don't write in more detail. any way we can see the next.....
another incident i was at rajagiri college at hostel we 2 guys
from Jacobite and 1 from "indian church" and then hindus
muslims and so. we have psycology classes and NLP classes there.
so i can understand ur mind. but don't think ur way in faith is
correct(commonsense).don't try to mix decisions from commonsense
and faith.keep the faith is the commonsense here. we 2 discuss abt
the church matters so and so. and we don't discuss it as a public
matter. At that time our H.B thomas1 catholicose was ordained and
reached here from ANTIOCH. the indian orhodox man is waiting for
a word from us. but we didn't say anything to him. one day "indian
church" man to our faithful told some thing about our catholicose.
he replied if u are like this i did't allow this to continue.
so we don't discuss the church matters. he left him. next day he
met me. he told to me ur bava is this that so and so. i also replied
if u continue i wouldn't allow. we have to live together in the same
hostel. so he left me.
we have 10 day NSS camp at koratty. at the 7 th day he called some
of the girls of our church and told them something u are like this
that so and so. some of my friends from RC informed me that fellow
is brainwashing some Jacobite girls. when i heard this news i
reached there. At that time he stopped his work. i simply asked
what u are doing? he say oh talking. our girls told me all the
things. i sat there and said if u are ready we can discuss. he
say ok at that time our other faithful also reached. he told he wants
to start. i asked u start, at that time i am teaching our girls abt
the faith. he started the discussion with the "indian church" man
and i taught our girls. after sometimes that "indian church"
fellow has no words to talk. then i also entered into the dicussion.
i raised some statements and asked 1 que only he has no word to
answer. at that time all our girls, some of RC guys and girls laughed
at him and they understood what is the matter of their church and their
activities. the next day itself news abt brainwashing spread.
u tell who is wrong??? we explain only the faith and no more.
the next day some of the RC sisters met me and wanted to told
them the real faith. and the problems in the church case?
i explained. i also include now jacobite and RC joined by
discussion b/t the patriarchs of these 2 churches.
after this Jacobites got a good image there - a deciplined and
desencent group and the other have a worst.
where the commonsense??? only god's activities succeded.
don't proud about your own commonsense. if god is willing we can
see the next... it is a sure matter if not confess. god doesn't
leave his bride
-Holy church. Jesus Christ words are the faith of our church. lord
built only one church that is on St. Peter. the all others are
duplicates and not by Jesus Christ. these duplicates never exist.
their aim is to redirect all from entering from the church of our
LORD by making confusions. same dress, same prayers and so. they
are the real anti-christ, anti-christians, anti-church, anti-profects.
(kalla christu, kalla pravachakanmar).jesus said at the end kalla
kristukalum kalla pravachkanmarum will come, and trying to make wrong.
god reveals u the meaning.
- Dear Mr.Paul,
thank you for correcting me. i wrote my feelings not
as a schollar of the church. i am not even a noted
member of the church. none in the parish where i
attend the holy querbana knows me.
what i mentioned was the commandments Jesus gave to
1 love your God
2 love your neibhour
i just clubed them as it was concentrated on Love. as
i understood the God He is Love.
we have no Love but what we have is the negative
expression of love.
i hope it is clear to you. i donot want to make any
contraversy on the subject. you may post a correct
i love all
>Really? How do you know? Please show that to me that LOVEpaul
>is the only commandment. My understanding is that LOVE is
>one of the commandments.
- I am writing this so that every one in our Church,
both Orthodox and Jacobites, read this and reject any
teaching that is against the teaching of Patriarch St.
Severus. Then, the immediate thing to do is to unite
on the basis of this faith.
"That a church is a confession of right faith no one
who is reckoned among Christians and has understanding
doubts, since the Lord plainly said in the Gospels to
the divine Peter, the first of the apostles, when he
made the confession, Thou art Christ, the Son of the
living God, Thou art Cephas, and upon this rock will I
build my church, and the gates of Sheol shall not
prevail against it; and he called the firmness and
fixity of such a confession a rock. And, as speech
knows a right and sound opinion on faith as a church,
so it also knows the believers who confess it as a
church." [St. Severus, Letter to the Holy Convents of
Virgins of Christ]
In Orthodox church Peter along with Paul is honored
are firsts among Apostles. Peter, as the elder among
them and Paul, because of his hardwork for the Church.
But the Church does not use this as an opportunity to
bring local churches under single administration.
Regarding administration, Apostolic Canons (Canon
Slihe) mandates the unity of the church, the bishops
in "each Nation" under one head bishop.
Few things to notice from the words of St. Severus:
- that "a Church is a confession of right faith"
- that "He called the firmness and fixity of such a
confession a rock"
- that "as speech knows a right and sound opinion on
faith as a Church, so it also knows the believers who
confess it as a Church."
In clear words St. Severus teaches that the "firmness
and fixity of confession" is the Rock.
Based on this, those who teach that the person of
Peter is the Rock is teaching a wrong faith, a faith
different from St. Severus.
Pope Shenouda also explains that the faith of
confession is the Rock upon which the Church is found.
- Dear sister susan
Thanks for the new thread
Nisha Sharma had her 15 seconds of fame!
In India she can extend that to 15 years or even more.
As long as there are are arranged marriages dowry has to be
part of it.
In Muslim community they give money to the girl's family.
For Hindus and Christians who have arranged marriages, the dowry
system works like this:
For no dowry, one can find a bum for their daughter - he may even
live in the bride's house.
For one lakh rupees you can probably find a daily laborer
For 10 lakh rupees you can find a white collar employee.
For 25 lakh rupees you can find a professional.
For 1 crore rupees you can find an IAS officer - or more.
SO GET OVER WITH IT.
Aji Thomas David
--- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Susan Jose wrote:
> Dowery system has its good and bad side. Under christian law a
girl has no
> rights to her parents property after the marriage.(unless she go
> court) So it is good to give her fair share of her parents wealth
> time of marriage.
> The bad side is that people get greedy and try to squeze dowery
> other's ability to pay.
> Your comments please.
> In Christ
> Susan Jose