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Re: Facts about the establishment of Catholicate of east

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  • Mathew G M
    ... Dear Dr Leena, Can you please elaborate further on this? Believers always could confess directly to God. The confession before the priest is not a
    Message 1 of 40 , Oct 9, 2012
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      --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Dr. Leena Mathew wrote:
      > Reasons for excommunication of Augen 1:-
      >     a) No need to confess to priest. Believers can confess direct to Jesus either personally or as a group.
      --------------------------
      Dear Dr Leena,
      Can you please elaborate further on this?

      Believers always could confess directly to God. The confession before the priest is not a substitute for confessing directly before God. In the Holy Bible Epistle of St.James 5:16 we read: "Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed." So in olden times people used to stand infront of the congregation and confess to the entire congregation. Since the priest represents the congregation; confession to the priest is a substitute for confessing to the entire congregation. Confessing to the priest is a substitute for "confessing to each other" it is not a substitute for "confessing to God."

      I don't think the IOC ever said that confessing to the priest is not needed ever. I think their position was that a person could receive absolution "Hoosoyo" and partake in the Holy Qurbana. And now this is followed in the Jacobite Syrian Church as well.

      So please elaborate on how exactly is the IOC Devalokam practice different from the Jacobite Syrian Church.

      --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Dr. Leena Mathew wrote:
      > Reasons for excommunication of Augen 1:-

      >     b) The Church belief that the Holy Baptism is for the relief of birth sin is wrong.
      --------------------------
      Can you please elaborate what is birth sin ?

      By birth sin; are you referring to the guilt of 'original sin' which is the sin that Adam and Eve committed in Eden ? Please clarify. If that is the case, we donot inherit the guilt of original sin and the Holy Baptism is not for the forgiveness (relief) of the sin of Adam and Eve. We as a group discussed that in great detail in response to the discussion initiated by Mr. Thomas Mann.

      The understanding that the guilt of original sin is inherited is a Augustinian view. We Syriac Orthodox does not accept this view of original sin.

      --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Dr. Leena Mathew wrote:
      > Reasons for excommunication of Augen 1:-

      >     c) Limiting the Holy sacraments to 7 is wrong.
      --------------------------
      I didnot understand this statement. We all learn that the 7 sacraments are:
      1. Baptism
      2. Chrismation (Mooron)
      3. Holy Qurbana (Communion)
      4. Holy Confession
      5. Holy Matrimony
      6. Ordination to priesthood
      7. Annointing of the sick with oil. (Unction)

      So if there are more than 7 sacraments, what is the 8th, 9th and 10th sacrament ?
       
      Of the reasons you cited; the above sounded the most serious matters. So it would be great if you can elaborate further on those and highlight the reasons for excommunication.

      In Christ,
      Mathew G M
      0929
    • Zach George Arapura
      Dr.Leena and others interested, It is not my job to point out your non sequiturs but I wonder how you inferred that I believe that there won t be any change
      Message 40 of 40 , Nov 3, 2012
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        Dr.Leena and others interested,

        It is not my job to point out your non sequiturs but I wonder how you inferred that I believe "that there won't be any change in policies of an institute as long as it is run by the same sect of people" because I would have thought that it is emphatically clear from my sentence you quoted that "policies do change". What I was merely pointing out was that the nature of the University i.e., ethos remained Protestant. And from your earlier messages I gather that you believe MSOT seminary is "better off being on its own". While I don't entirely agree with that, I believe your opinion stems from the concern over the Protestant nature of University. In the `Kalpana' you quoted in one of your previous messages, HH the Patriarch asked for clarification to Baselios Augen I for "affiliating the Seminary to the Serampore University of Culcutta[sic], which is well known as a protestant university". To me it looks like His Holiness was concerned over the Protestant nature of the University to which a Syriac Orthodox Seminary is affiliated to. And as far as I know their ethos haven't changed.

        I thank you for taking the trouble to contact the proper authorities regarding the syllabus and affiliation. Shri Joshy Pauls clarification was similar. Though what I learnt from my own enquiry was that before the BD course commences a foundation course on our faith, liturgy and addenda is taught to the priests-in-training of our church and after completing that they advance to the regular 4 year BD program with a University prescribed syllabus with no dilutions. So, unless you have categorized everything that is being taught at the MSOT seminary as syllabus my information is inaccurate.

        The Orthodox seminary was affiliated in 1964 and 38 years have passed since His Holiness asked for clarifications in 1974. I do understand that we were pre occupied with the schism for many years. Surely it is time to think, at least, of a Theological University with Orthodox ethos as a long term goal. You asked, "Who told you that they are not planning it?" Well, do you know if there is any long-term vision of that sort? Usually it has been our practice to announce things we plan to do with a lot of hue and cry and I didn't hear about this one. Maybe I wasn't paying attention when it was being announced. I am well aware of our "achievements" as you put it and I am not criticizing any of it rather I congratulate our HB Thomas I, Catholicose of India, and all the associated people on their steadfastness to bring glory to our Church. But I do hope it didn't come at the cost of our spiritual growth.

        Theological studies in India are not easy and the Church has a certain responsibility to make it better. From what I understand MSOT seminary doesn't offer Masters or Doctoral courses. Maybe we can start from there. Maybe my opinion to put Theological University on a higher priority as one of our Church's goals is a minority one and, as you put it, is not one which is passed by the Holy Synod with "two third majorities". But even in a top-down structure like ours I believe the voice of an ordinary faithful do matter and airing opinions on this forum gives me an opportunity to engage in meaningful opinion building process.

        Lastly on a personal note, my query whether you were related to me was to make us not "strangers". Though a simple yes or no might have sufficed, I do understand your reservations for giving out personal information even though I gave out my personal information. But being 22 and a student (oops! I did it again: P) makes me relax over my own privacy concerns.

        Hope I've been polite, courteous and clear.

        Zach George Arapura
        Member# 3083
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