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Re: Kaumo prayers in a wrong way

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  • Anil George
    Thank you Achan for correcting us. Regards Anil George M no: 897
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 7, 2012
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      Thank you Achan for correcting us.

      Regards

      Anil George
      M no: 897
    • Bar Eto briro D. Babu Paul
      Regarding Kauma I may add that our tradition insists that the short form, like subaholabo, is to be used only by a priest. Of course we can all say subaho in
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 8, 2012
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        Regarding Kauma I may add that our tradition insists that the short form, like subaholabo, is to be used only by a priest. Of course we can all say subaho in private, it is only a praise for the Trinity, and we do, but in common worship it is only the highest ecclesiastical dignitary who says that, as we all know.

        Babu Paul
      • Rev. Fr. Jose Daniel
        zlomo, Dear and near, Following is my reply concerning the words Njangngal and Nammal that we use in the Malayalam prayer Krupa ninrranjnja Marriyamae ninakku
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 8, 2012
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          zlomo, Dear and near, Following is my reply concerning the words Njangngal and Nammal that we use in the Malayalam prayer Krupa ninrranjnja Marriyamae ninakku samaadhaanam [" Hail Mary full of grace."]

          In Malayalam Njangngal [1st. person plural.] means me and the people
          praying together.
          But nammal1st. [person plural] means me, you and the people praying
          together.
          As far as Mother of God is not an earthly being now, and at present she not reciting the same prayer but she is joining with us only by
          listening the prayers. So it is not appropriate to use the word nammal, or nammalute karththaavu ninnnOdu kuuTe.

          The Syriac original is "Moaran Amaeq mbareqtho" Moran can be compared by the word Aboon. meaning of the word combination is Moran = Our Lord = NjangngaLuTe Karrththaavu. [NammaLuTe karrththaavu according to the context] Aboon = Our Father, " njangngaluTe pithaavu" [First words in the Lords prayer. ]

          Waiting for repeated comments.

          --
          Thank You

          Rev. Fr. Jose Daniel Paitel
        • Abraham Paul
          Dear SOCM Members, Kaumo prayers in a wrong way The foregoing discussion about the appropriateness of a particular Malayalam word in ‘Hail Mary” prayer
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 10, 2012
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            Dear SOCM Members,
            Kaumo prayers in a wrong way


            The foregoing discussion about the appropriateness of a particular Malayalam word in ‘Hail Mary” prayer in the Kaumo reminds me of the following article I wrote many years back. Allow me to reproduce it below just to bring out the point that while we are so eager to discriminate the differences in meaning of a particular word in the Kaumo, many of our children (even among grown ups) merely recite most our prayers and hymns without knowing its full meaning.

            “Don’t we need to compromise our self interest a bit to make our children know the liturgy better?”

            The Eastern Orthodox liturgy we got from our saintly fathers and passed on to us through generations is the richest among the World Christian faith orders. However, is there not a need to adapt ourselves to our changed social environment. I do not mean that we should deviate in any way from the liturgy but need to have some compromise in our ardent love for Malayalam version of Holy Qurbano everywhere; in the wider interest of our future generation who are being brought up with no knowledge of Malayalam. The fact is even many grown ups nowadays do not have the proficiency in Malayalam to fully understand the liturgy.

            It is only natural that most of us prefer to participate in H.Qurbono celebrated in Malayalam and may not have the same feeling in the English version of it. It is not that we are not aware of the fact that our children being brought up in different environment do participate in the Eucharist without knowing its substance in depth. ‘Manglish’ substitutes we use are of some help, but not enough to follow and understand the full meaning of the prayers and hymns in our liturgy.

            In most of the discussion on this subject in our churches, there is always this argument that those who do not know Malayalam should learn the English version to know the meaning of what they recite in Malayalam. The whole idea of saying the prayers and singing the songs aloud is to focus our attention for deeper involvement based on the meaning of what we pray or sing. True that some who use in their house, do understand the meaning even without knowing the language unless the are explictely taught by their parents. But for most of them there it becomes merely an external ritual without any deep involvement. Same is true in the case of our family prayers in our houses. This is perhaps, one of the reasons for many from us get attracted to other forms of Christian worship that could give them that feeling of more involvement and participation that they say, missing in our churches.

            Of course, these days most of churches take care to provide Holy Qurbano texts with transcripts in ‘Manglish’ and some in have English and Syriac version of the prayers also. Nevertheless, it will be prudent to consider celebrating the Holy Eucharist also fully in English, at least once a while as deem fit depending on the place.

            Most of our worship hymns in English could be sung in the same tune in its Malayalam version. Choir can prepare and provide CDs for the laity to learn follow these. Some are already there in YouTube. For example, the English version of ‘Udayon arul cheythu’ is available in the link www.youtube.com/watch?v=q336P0JFChY

            This particular hymn in itself, especially in the first three stanzas contain the entire 'Philosophy and Essence of Christian Faith' as told to us by Jesus himself. It is worthwhile explaining it to children to make them understand in the language they are proficient, in context of relevant verses from H. Bible, and teach them to sing it, which according to me will be as useful as most of the lengthy sermons. To begin with, it will be worth while to sing the English version of the song following after its Malayalam version or even intermittently stanza wise along with it. Try it and see whether children appreciate it or not.

            It is most welcome that some congregations in Kerala and outside and many abroad, H. Qurbono is being celebrated in English. I remember Rev. Fr. Roy Kochat, taking pains to learn and celebrate Holy Qurbano in English, once in a month in Kalina church in Mumbai in 1995. Such priests with sincerity and dedication to the purpose are real blessing to our Church.

            With kind regards to all,

            P. Abraham Paul
            #SOCM 3321
          • Rev. Fr. Zach Varghese
            I very much appreciate the context and intentions of this article concerning using English. In some ways we here at our Austin, Texas parish are conducting an
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 10, 2012
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              I very much appreciate the context and intentions of this article concerning using English. In some ways we here at our Austin, Texas parish are conducting an *in situ* experiment with our multicultural,
              transcendent, and precious tradition.

              Thankfully, I am happy to report generally positive responses to a fully
              English Holy Qurbono. Criticism has been constructive.

              Please pray for all of us who love and respect Malayalam, Syriac, and other linguistic/cultural inputs but are handicapped but language barriers.

              Sincerely in Christ,

              Fr. Zach Varghese
              Member 903
            • Dr. Sinu P. John
              Dear Rev. Fr. Zach, I am happy to hear that the church in Austin is trying to conduct the liturgy in English with support from every one. English Qurbono is a
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 15, 2012
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                Dear Rev. Fr. Zach,

                I am happy to hear that the church in Austin is trying to conduct the liturgy in English with support from every one. English Qurbono is a need of our young generation and more importantly for the future generations in America who may not be so fluent in the Malayalam language. For them, to understand the beauty and meaning of the Qurbono it is essential to eventually switch the Qurbono to English. Another option is to teach every kid Malayalam to the level they can read and understand the Malayalam language. This may be possible in the current generation where parents/grand parents in US are fluent in Malayalam. However, in looking forward, I am not sure how successful we will be in teaching Malayalam to all the future generations in the United States. So a gradual change to English is highly essential.

                However, we should also promote Syriac, the official language of our church. The reasons to promote Syriac language are many. First, it was the language (a dialect of Aramaic) Jesus spoke and many of what Jesus taught in the Syriac language is better understood in its fullness only in the Syriac language. Although Jesus's teachings are translated into different languages with much accuracy, several of his speeches are still, better understood only when we learn it in the Syriac language (one e.g.: the Syriac (also Hebrew) letter `yood' mentioned in Matthew 5:18). Languages evolve over time and people adapt different languages. But we have to preserve Jesus's teachings with its original interpretation to the future generation and for the same reason we have to promote Syriac language. In addition, a lot of the writings of the early church fathers which describes the uncorrupted doctrine of the early church are written in Syriac. Although several of them are translated to other languages, it is important to know the Syriac language to verify its translation from the original text whenever needed. Our church is very proud to be one among the few to preserve this precious language for about 2000 years. Our church preserved Syriac language among different language speaking members of our church, such as Arabic, Turkish, Kurdish, Malayalam, Sanskrit, and Tamil. So, we should be able to preserve the Syriac language even if the new generation of our church speaks only English. Using and teaching Syriac in the church is a good opportunity to promote the language of our Savior Jesus Christ.

                `Syriac' is an identity for us as well, which we all should be very proud of. We were called Syriac Christians (Suriyani Christianikal in Malayalam) even before we were called Malayalees! The language Malayalam was evolved to the current form only in the 7th-8th centuries. Even before this, at least from 4th century onwards with records, the Christians lived in India were called Syriac Christians. The language spoken by Jews in the first century was Syriac and thus, when St. Thomas reached Maliankara, most likely the Syriac speaking Jews there would have helped him to translate to their native languages. So most likely the first christian converts might have spoken Syriac together with Tamil or Sanskrit. I remember seeing long time ago, in a government issued tourism map of Kerala, Kottayam denoted as `Center for Syriac Christians'! So Syriac is our identity and also part of our own history.

                While we (those who live outside of Kerala or India) gradually change the Qurbono to English, we should be careful to promote and use Syriac language as well. In my opinion, Syriac should be taught at the Sunday school level (both in Kerala and outside) and should be made mandatory for the curriculum. At the diocesan level, Syriac coaching should be given to the Sunday school teachers. Muslims teach Arabic, the language their prophet spoke, in their religious school, for the same reason and is mandatory throughout the world for Muslim kids. We should learn from the dedication Muslims showing in teaching and promoting the language of their prophet and should take initiative to teach the Syriac language which our Savior Jesus Christ spoke, to all of our church members.

                With prayers,

                Sinu P. John, PhD
                Boston, USA
                Member ID: 0076
                >>>>>>

                Posted By: dnzach4

                I very much appreciate the context and intentions of this article concerning using English. In some ways we here at our Austin, Texas parish are conducting an *in situ* experiment with our multicultural,
                transcendent, and precious tradition.

                Thankfully, I am happy to report generally positive responses to a fully English Holy Qurbono. Criticism has been constructive.
                Please pray for all of us who love and respect Malayalam, Syriac, and other linguistic/cultural inputs but are handicapped but language barriers.

                Sincerely in Christ,
                Fr. Zach Varghese
                Member 903
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