Re: Thrones mentioned in Mathew 19:28
- Dear Mr.Mathew / Dr. Sinu John,
Thanks to give a vivid picture on the sub matter. Your brotherly
communications, acceptance, disagreements are worthwhile.
At last we all end up in the GOLGATHA, where our Jesus Christ crucified, we find the mercy in his eyes and words and in heart to all including those given him so much agony.
We, thus, pray to him same as that of the right hand thief, Lord please remember us once you come back with glory.
God chosen, the shepherds, the fishermen and so on to lead his people
by neglecting approximately 24000/- priests & high priests in and around Jerusalem, the scribes, the Pharisees..
- Dear Mathew,
I think it is time to conclude the discussion of thrones. Dr. Sinu and
others in earlier postings have laid out the faith of the Syriac Orthodox Church, of which the Church in Malankara is an integral part. And frankly your answers have become circular.
The faith, again, is that the Patriarch of Antioch is in his person the successor of St. Peter, and all the bishops, including the Patriarch, (and for that matter the entire Church) are the successors of all the Apostles. The Church may confer the ministry of St. Peter upon whom the Holy Spirit leads it to.
It is clear that you are angling for an autocephalous church in India.
Obviously, if "jacobites" wanted this there would be no need for the past 100+ years of acrimony. Autocephaly is against the faith of the the church as was handed down from Ignatious to Ignatious Zakka I.
For those wishing to move against this faith and declare autocephaly,
withdraw all court cases, take what you have, and be our guests -continue in your own faction as a completely separate church. We can move as "sister" churches per the Patriarch's indication in the Oriental Orthodox Communion.
The ball is in the court of the IOC faction since 2002. Only they can
withdraw from fighting as SOC is 99.9% of the time on the defence.
Hope this clears any doubt. Please pray for me.
- Dear Brother in Jesus,
Reply to what you wrote: "Can't we work out a similar situation between India and the Antioch; where the Indian Church is autocephalous under a Catholicose, but the first among them is still the Patriarch of Antioch? What is wrong with that?"
There is no point in comparing other churches in the world even if they belong to the same faith as us and forcing everyone else in the church to make the same mistakes other churches did. Moreover, it does not make any sense when IOC wants the Catholicate which was one of the offices of SOC which was under the Patriarch (and not autocephalous) and mean time also want the churches built by the faithful who do not want a split from the Patriarch of Antioch and become autocephalous. This trend is not good. If this is encouraged, then more autocephalous churches will be formed from the same lineage (based on ethnicity, nationality, language or more to find in future) splitting the church of God again and again, on the our own expenses. Why can't we exist as a single church as before? What is wrong with that? Problems arises when someone try to implement novel ideas (such as formation of autocephalous church) to an already existing church which is not autocephalous. So why do you want to create problems by bringing ideas to mimic other churches. Again, why cant we remain as a single church?
Reply to what you wrote: "In an earlier post you had pointed out that the Armenian Church uses unleavened bread whereas the rest of the Oriental Orthodox Churches uses leavened bread for the Holy Qurbana and pointing it out as a difference in faith. If that is the case we have things to worry about within the Syriac Church. In the Syriac Church in the middle east and in the rest of Oriental Orthodoxy, one church building has only one altar (thronos) and at any given point in time, only One Holy Qurbana is celebrated. If there are more than one priest present, they stand around the same altar and celebrate one Holy Qurbana with one cup and chalice. Is that the situation that we have in Malankara ? Here most churches have three altars (thronos); even five and seven altars are not uncommon. We have three, five or seven priests simultaneously celebrate different Holy Qurbana. We even had a 100 priest Holy Qurbana. Someone from the outside could look at this and say that this is a deviation from the Orthodox faith. The truth is that it is not. regional variances in practices are an accepted part of the church"
There is regional variation in practices within any churches. But using unleavened bread is not just a difference in practice but difference in faith. Jesus used leavened bread to establish a New covenant on a feast day of the unleavened bread. This is different from what you pointed out between the churches in India and Middle East in practices. Now regarding the multi masses conducted; I am personally not a fan of multi masses. On the other hand, as a layman I am not eligible to comment on those different practices. Let the synod decide what practice is right and wrong. To me, in a qurbono performed by a clergy (irrespective of who it is, priest/bishop/catholicose/patriarch), the Holy Spirit is participated and thus the qurbono is conducted in the presence of our Lord GOD itself. So there is only one bread and wine need to be turned into the body and blood of Christ at one place at the same time. This is my personal view and church fathers (both IOC and JSOC) who promote this may have a different opinion or interpretation and I respect those. There are other differences in practices with region not just in SOC but also in Roman Catholic church- but only in practices, not in faith. Ethiopian church and Eritrean church accepts the book of Enoch as canonic (it is a faith) and no other churches have accepted it as canonic (apocryphal). This is a difference in faith. I am not saying that, Ethiopians are wrong in this matter. The more I analyze the Book of Enoch; I am convinced that it has a lot of truth (if not all). The only problem is proving its authenticity of origin. In fact, only Ethiopians had the original copies of this book until the recent discoveries. This book does not contradict any of our faith, but enrich our faith. Jews argued that it was created by some Christians. But the identification of parts of it in the dead see scroll prove its origin some time back to B.C 150, that is, even before Christianity existed. My point here is that if we had existed as a single church under a single Patriarch and a single synod, we would have analyzed it more carefully and accepted or rejected as apocryphal. This also shows the importance of remaining as one church.
Reply to what you wrote: "Here is where I disagree. `Syriac' is an ethnic group. In the Nicene Creed we don't say we believe in the Syriac Orthodox Church. We say that we believe in the `One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church'. And yes, the `One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church' has members belonging to different ethnic groups; Assyrians (Syriac), Copts, Indians, Armenians, Ethiopians etc). What holds them together is the rock of `one true faith', not based on who heads it"
`Syriac' is not an ethnic group. The word "Syriac" to our church does not come from an ethnic (or nationality) basis. It is based on the language, Syriac (in English, Suriyani in Malayalam), dialect of Aramaic, which is spoken by Jesus Christ, used in our liturgy and official correspondences. This is the reason in English, the name of our church is recently modified to 'Syriac' to replace 'Syrian'. Using the word Syrian, brings the impression that our church is for Syrians (ethnic or nationals). In reality, our church has nothing to do with the nation-Syria or the ethnics of Syria, other than that our headquarters is situated currently there. The actual translation of our church's name should be Syriac Orthodox Church in English. This is not an ethnic based church but named after the language Jesus spoke. It is not just the Syrians or Middle Easterners of SOC who uses Syriac in the liturgy. We all, including IOC and JSOC uses Syriac in the liturgy and thus are "Syriac". As per the constitution of SOC, a priest (as well as bishops) must have learnt Syriac language. This is the case in India too (I believe in IOC too). The official election process to elect Patriarch should also be conducted in Syriac Language, as Syriac is the official language of SOC. There is no single ethnicity within SOC in the Middle East even. They belong to different ethnicities (Labanese, Iraqis, Turkish, Palestinian, Syrian, and Israelite etc). You may notice the difference in skin tones between these people on pictures. The only common thing among the people in Middle East is that they all speak Arabic as their first language. This is the reason why Patriarch to be elected (based on SOC constitution; article 34) must also speak Arabic, as Patriarch deals with the temporal powers within all the Arabic speaking diasporas. In reality, both Indians and SOC in Middle East equally deals Syriac language nowadays, because Syriac is not the mother tongue (or first language) of any of these members any more (an exception is the village, Malula in Syria where the most spoken language is still Syriac). The difference in ethnicity within SOC members in the Middle East, especially between Turkish and Syrians have resulted even in conflicts (I am mentioning this only to show the ethnic differences) in the past. Calling SOC as an ethnic church is an utter non-sense. Why would, 1000000 members of Brazilians would recently join SOC if it is an ethnic church? The same Nicene council which, you mentioned here, formulated the Nicene Creed, also mentions about the authority of the bishop of Antioch.
Reply to what you wrote: "Our Lord Jesus Christ, gave primacy of honor to St. Peter among the apostles. That is it. There is nothing about a particular Bishop succeeding that special honor given to St. Peter"
Out of curiosity, let me ask you, what other things Jesus instituted on earth ceased with Apostles in your view? The belief of SOC is that all powers received from Jesus is still continued, and should be continued until the end of time. Primacy of St. Peter given to lead the church on Earth is not an exception.
Reply to what you wrote: "On, going back to the situation `before the split'; are you talking about the days before 1912 split or the days before the 1970s split. But the Catholicate was given legitimacy by the 1958 acceptance. So I am guessing that you are not talking about going back prior to 1958. Regarding the split of 1970s, I don't understand the reasons behind it. But I sincerely believe that we can go back to the situation between 1958 1970"
As you know the `peace' established in 1958 did not last so long. So going to that situation do not guarantee an everlasting peace in the church any more. Yes, Catholicate was given legitimacy by 1958 acceptance. In fact, that was the only achievement JSOC made from that acceptance. We have to understand that the 1958-1970 did not really bring peace in the church, other than JSOC giving an opportunity to those of autocephalous church promoters to brain wash more of SOC members. It is easy to brain wash people if someone raises racism or skin color as the chief issues and I think that is what IOC achieved in the period during the so called `peace' or 'united church' period. Our Lord did not establish a church based on race, skin color, or nationality. Thus, we should promote to remain as a single church under a single chief.
Sinu P. John, PhD
Boston, MA, USA
Member ID: 0076
- Respected Deacon Zach,
I agree. It is about time to wrap up this discussion.
I want to thank Dr. Sinu John, a great son of the Church , my brother in Christ for having the patience with me and engaging in this very detailed discussion.
I also want to thank the moderators of this forum, for allowing freedom of expression and diversity of thoughts. I am so grateful, especially because I do not get that from the moderators of another forum.
Mathew G M
--- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Dn. Zacharia Varghese wrote:
> Dear Mathew,
> I think it is time to conclude the discussion of thrones.
- My beloved Jacobites,
We all are into the long discussion between Sinu and Mathew for last few days.
Appreciating Dr. Sinu for gave the answers from our holy church's true faith. Many of like Mathew had a lot of questions as discussed earlier. Hope these are get clarified by this time.
I hope this is the point to end the discussion as it is not a good practice to go discussion on faith related things that goes outside the basic faith too.
The faith of Universal Syriac Orthodox Church followed from the first century up to now that we received from holy Apostles.
We can see that St. Peter established throne at ANTIOCH on AD 37, Feb 22. We can see that the holy church celebrated this day from the earlier centuries itself. Even ROME also celebrated without mentioning the name of ANTIOCH.
As per the Church History book from H.H Igantius Yakoob 3rd Patriarch of ANTIOCH, from the book of Heskiya we can see the prophet is mentioning about ANTIOCH.
About the throne of St. Peter, think many didn't understand what is the specialty of that.
From the Bible let me explain only one topic that is more important.
Say by simple example, you can just remind the picture of our Lord and his 12 Apostles.
Before Jesus left to Father - John 21 - he called St. Peter asking whether he love him or not St. Peter replied "yes" and Jesus said "tend my sheeps for me" – (thrice) - Syriac Bible (Malayalam Kaniyamparambil Achen's Peshitta translation) . In the book by Bible society of India this is written as "Tend/Feed my sheep" - "for me" is not there, it swallowed . The space is not enough to tell why protestants discarded part. Come to our point. Our Lord Jesus delegated St. Peter by this. This is an order from our Lord, the specialty of the order is it exists in the nature of duality.
In a single order our Lord is informing this to two below category.
1. Order to Peter. - Delegacy
2. Order to three set of sheep (1. Aadukal, 2. Pennadukal, 3.Kunjadukal).
The order to St. Peter is, - St. Peter have to tend these three types of sheep for him, in our Lords position as delegate - discharge the duties of who called, directed, consecrated, ordained as Apostles. So for St. Peter, he have to sit on two positions, have to be like other Apostles - discharge of duties as an Apostle and be in the place of our Lord Jesus Christ- discharge the special duties. The position of Jesus, where St. Peter delegated (as vicar of Our Lord Jesus Christ) what named as "THE THRONE OF St. PETER" where we called affectionately. Nothing else. On other case about thrones if you need we can say a normal laymen also have throne, in all days we are talking about thrones of Kings, Queens, or very respected personalities, like that you can also have one. But the Holy throne here mentioned in the Christianity is different, don’t get confused.
The order to his Sheep (three types) - if you are the sheep of Jesus, you should be tended by St. Peter. No other choice. Else if you don't want you can do whatever you want. Your choice whether you wants to be the sheep of our Lord or not. Nobody is going to take any decision for you. You have to. About the three types of sheep, 1 . Aadukal - Male,
2. Pennadukal - Female 3. Kujadukal - those who are submitted to Lord - who all holding Priesthood.
So even if anybody tell that they don't want to tend by the Holy throne of St. Peter, St. Peter(predecessors as HH Patriarchs) are helpless, because they wants to execute the order for his Lord Jesus Christ, even you want or not, that is not an excuse for St. Peter and his predecessors. On the final day the question only goes to St. Peter/Patriarchs, whether you tend my sheep or not?.- Reporting.
Next, comes to you, are you a sheep of Lord Jesus Christ or not? Just obey the words as mentioned in John 21. Gospel Ends after this calling for St. Peter, it has it on relevance. Rest of the things will see lively. This is why Holy fathers ready to die for this Holy faith related to church/St. Peter. Please go through Chathuruthy St. Gregorious Salmusa in following link you can understand the importance. I don't know how many went through the Salmusa. http://syrianchurch.org/StGG/salmusa_StGregorios.pdf
Please go through that and tell me what is the stand of Saint Gregorious about holy ANTIOCH.
Metran Kakshi's have the only intention that to sell St. Gregorious by just showing that he is a Saint. Just see how he became the Saint by his Salmusa. We have to study the true faith.
Many are talking about, the union of our church with this veedavipareethikal. It is not at all possible. Can you drink a cup of milk, by just say only little bit of poision, it is not an issue? and can you say it as poison or milk? It is a poison only that by look others can think it is normal milk.
Holy fathers taught us that keep away from these types of peoples. If you go and be into the mimic acts of these people are like drink the poison.
If anybody wants to join with church of lord Jesus Christ, it has its own procedures, get baptize and to be tend by St. Peter. Follow that. No short cuts.
Many of our church members are attending the mockery show at this veedavipareethikal's said buildings(cannot use the word churches) and gave to bathing their children publicly over there like nobody is there at home to bath them. Ashamed !!!!!!!!!
None of the faithful of HOLY UNIVERSAL SYRIAC ORTHODOX CHURCH members are allowed to do so as per the order from our H.H PATRIARCH. From the apostolic bull HH informed church faithful, should not have any sacramental relationship with this veedavipareethikal, if anybody do so they will be automatically out of our Holy Church. (Mudakapettvarodu kodae kodashika bandhathil erpedunavarum mudakapettavar ayirikum). Baptism is a holy sacrament, so we should not be get into their mockery show.
Some guys are telling that they had a vow to Parumala pally, no such vows are valid. It is a sinful act.
If you really believe in St. Gregorious study at least his Salmusa, as he is our Saint and beloved son of Patriarch of ANTIOCH, take vow to St. Gregorious and get baptized at any of the parishes dedicated to the Saint by our Syriac Orthodox Church.
So the children of SYRIAC orthodox church members should be baptized by the Priest/Bishop of our church, who only have the priesthood. Don't think that anybody who wear some sort of wardrobe who are just trying to imitate like a Priest/Bishop of SYRIAC ORTHODOX have valid Priesthood. In Gospel we can see "Kalla Cristukalum Kalla Pravachakanmarum nigalae tettikan varum". Those who imitate are also in this category to made the faithful in the wrong path. So we should have to teach this to entire world.
Again don't put any offerings at these churches, we are seeing that many of our members during their visit to Parumala pally,put some offerings there. This is also a sinful act. As Saint belongs to ours, visit his tomb come back and submit you offerings to your parish or any of the Shrines of Saint. It seems like a psychological things many feel bad, like went at the tomb of beloved Saint without put some amount there.Nothing bad is going to happen to you. Just think that the amount you offered are used for pay the salary for the said anti-priests(kallakristukal) and for case purposes and to work against our HOLY THRONE OF ANTIOCH. Saint know the situation. You know all these things, still If you do so, understand that you are working against our church itself, that will not get cleared in front our Lord. Just remind it always.
Few months back only some of our faithful distributed the Salmusa of St.Gregorious, near to Parumala church and the guys who read this got wonder. Oh! the Saint is like that!!! They asked.... I am requesting during speeches our Priest/Bishops should have to teach this to our faithful. It is high time for us to work.
I don't want anybody to discuss about the things that mentioned above. These are the faith related matters.
JUST UNDERSTAND and ACT ACCORDINGLY. IT IS NOT FOR DISUSSION.
God may give wisdom to us to be with HOLY THRONE OF ANTIOCH, the church of our LORD JESUS CHRIST.
Pray for our H.H IGNATIUS ZAKKA 1 Bava, H.B Baselius Thomas 1 Bava , all the our church father and faithful all over the world during this Pentecost. Remind that we are through a tough time.
Can you please ask Dr. Sinu to share his Phone number to me?
St Mary's Cathedral Valya Paly
> I agree. It is about time to wrap up this discussion.Dear Brother in Jesus, Mathew,
> I want to thank Dr. Sinu John, a great son of the Church , my brother in Christ for having the patience with me and engaging in this very detailed discussion.
I always enjoyed the discussion we had in this forum and I respect your differences of opinion. I appreciate your love for SOC amidst of all your differences of opinion. The discussions with my fellow IO church members (and also with protestant church members) only enriched my Orthodox faith and convinced me the need for remaining as a single church. I am not worthy of your good words you mentioned about me, but appreciate your good will.
I also thank Rev. Dn. Zach for his valuable comments. I congratulate and pray for Rev. Dn. Zach on the occasion of his ordination to the full priesthood. I thank Mr. Benny and Mr. Abin and others who commented on the same subject. I request all of your prayers for the growth of our church, SOC, united as ONE church, irrespective of all the differences of opinion we have.
Day of Pentecost To Remember:
Our Lord God once split the people on earth into different ethnic groups and nationalities, speaking different languages(Genesis 11:5-6).
"5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city" (KJV)
The same Lord later united all the people in one language and in one single church of God through Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-41).
"Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and was confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God" (KJV)
In a few days we will remember the day of Pentecost, where people of different ethnicity (both Jewish converts as well as gentiles of different languages and nationality) from different parts of the world united to hear in one language through Holy Spirit and became part of the single church. Acts 2:44: "And all that believed were together, and had all things common". The day of Pentecost is a reversal of what Lord did in Genesis 11:5. God united all the people who spoke different languages, belonged to different ethnicity and nationality, into his body through H. Spirit. So why should we split the church again and again based on ethnicity, nationality and language. Lord instituted the church on earth for all the nations irrespective of all these differences within them. Let us remain as a single church (John 10:16 "and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd") and preach the good news to all the world irrespective of their nationality and language (Mark 16:15-18 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature").
Sinu P. John, PhD
Boston, MA, USA
Member ID: 0076