- Dear all, The series of postings on Piravom church by Chev.P.J.Philip has been very informative.It reflects his in depth knowledge of the local issues and hisMessage 1 of 15 , May 4, 2012View SourceDear all,
The series of postings on Piravom church by Chev.P.J.Philip has been very informative.It reflects his in depth knowledge of the local issues and his understanding of the nuances of legal matters. However, there are a few disturbing issues.There seems to be a lack of coordination between the concerned parish and the central church leadership. The people seem to wake up only when a crisis occurs. The parish legal team apparently keeps the central church legal team at arm's length! What a pitiable state of affairs! It is even more disheartening to note that a similar pattern was followed in Kolencherry. Are we working for SOC or are we working at cross purpose,bothered about only our egos.
We seem to have forgotten past legal lapses again- not getting the court to stay the ordination on Mor Ivanios Murimattam as Catholica in 1912, not sending notice to all parish churches for the Karingachira association of 1935, not forming an association with a constitution in 1970(the public effort in 1980s was stayed by HC, see the IOC move). There seem to have been a concerted legal effort at the central church leadership level since 1998-99 which has paid dividends as one can see from 2002. However the individual parishes need to sincerely cooperate with them.
The 1995 SC verdict is very favourable to individual parishes, IOC will be on the backfoot on this, the rights of the parish churches should not be frittered away.
Ultimately as Chev.Philip mentioned, the court ruling will prevail in a democracy, no politician and/or his administrative/police wing can run a writ to the contrary in the long term.
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- Dear all We should appreciate what Mr Abraham brought out the suffering of the Jacobite faithful in the southern part of Kerala and their sincere effort toMessage 2 of 15 , May 5, 2012View SourceDear all
We should appreciate what Mr Abraham brought out the suffering of the
Jacobite faithful in the southern part of Kerala and their sincere effort to bring back the faithful to true belief and real church. WE must start more churches nearby almost every orthodox church, initially with setting up new prayer meeting then the patriarchal Centre similar like Catholoc centre of the IOC in the north and then the full church. Now our church is fully organised, have enough finanacial strength to support these Jacobite faithful people. Church leadership should have a focussed and serious thinking about this matter.
- Dear All. I have read the message of Mr.T.C.Abraham, intention of the message is very clear and that is in line with the principal of Christianity. Root causeMessage 3 of 15 , May 5, 2012View SourceDear All.
I have read the message of Mr.T.C.Abraham, intention of the message is very clear and that is in line with the principal of Christianity.
Root cause of the problem in my perception.
1.Freedom in India : We forget that our country accepted all religion and it allowed it to grow. Now we exploit the situation in its full length. If we analyse the situation in Syria , Iraq, etc�what is happening..Christians are struggling because of the law�s of that country along with extremism.
2.Conveniently forget Jesus Christ�s Verses : Especially Jacobits / Orthodox faithful, by mistake thinking to continue focus on controversies of the court cases and to die without attaining what Jesus Christ advised.( Remember 10 virigin story ) we may miss the chance to have �Holy Spirit� in us before our death.
3. Money/Power : If we dig the problem in the beginning, then you would see money is one of the main culprit (including Vattippanam (interest) etc ). Let us think what is the connection between money and spirituality.?. God is ready to give Holy Spirit freely ( cannot buy with money). Again , 2 of our Bishops Jumped to IOC cleverly not because of any drain in spirituality in our church , they jumped with the Property of our church for to snatch something else. ( this part you all can analyze). Is it spirituality they want to attain ?.
4.Owner ship of Church property : We have to have a clear instruction in the matter that the church property should not be in any individual name ( property of church is actually originated from normal laymen�s coins). If it is in any individual name , again we may loose it on individual decisions ( This part is difficult , people who touch on this would be like touching in fire) . If we attain this by keeping the property in the Church�s name under prevailing law( let the legal cell to decide), then we can ensure that Jumping chance will reduce to nil.
5. Best Option : Now we are in a loop like situation where we caught up in 1000 legs octopus(court cases) . 1 Generation is over with this problem ( started in 1800- 2012) and if we wait for next 5 generation ( 500 � 600 years) nothing will happen. At last the question by Pilate will remain �WHAT IS TRUTH� . Pilate doesn�t know that time that Jesus Christ was the Truth. Now we knew that Jesus Christ is the Truth but still we are in the net of the Evil. God is always merciful, let us pray , try to settle the problems of each church one by one amicably ( Share and care) subsequently clear the court cases. Secondly, we may have to create our own identity in all manners.( to avoid future confusions) .
6.Gospel, Every church have to have minimum 1 time �Dhyanam� in each month in order to spread gospel so that all should learn the way of Christian life. ( Currently we will keep our forefinger on nose once we analyses liquor consumption datas in Easter & Christmas). Please let us not crucify our Lord and savior Jesus Christ again. He took all the sins for the dead , living and those yet to born. It is our duty to show the world that we are reflecting the love of Jesus Christ through our life.
All above were my own perceptions, it is up to the readers to decide.
- Dear Moderators Chev. Adv. Philip is now writing in this forum about legal issues which is like an argument note for the IOC advocates for Piravom case.Message 4 of 15 , May 7, 2012View SourceDear Moderators
Chev. Adv. Philip is now writing in this forum about legal issues which is like an argument note for the IOC advocates for Piravom case. There is something to be read in between lines. Any sensible person will be able understand the purpose of the analysis. Is it because of some difference of opinion? Who got the 'status quo' order from SC subject to 1934 constitution during the pendency of the SLP? Which is no more in force after the final verdict of the SC, in respect of parish churches. There is no point in blaming? We need collective wisdom in legal issues! We have leaders who intimidate those who talk about some of the legal issues/opinions. The SOC is not a slave to anybody's wisdom. Don't question the integrity of those who air their voice only because of concern for the Church.
Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo
- Dear All, Hope we are not blaming each other, whatever happened is happened and we have to work together in countering IOC. One thing is sure, only the FittestMessage 5 of 15 , May 8, 2012View SourceDear All,
Hope we are not blaming each other, whatever happened is happened and we have to work together in countering IOC. One thing is sure, only the Fittest will Survive this Fight. This will depend on few things like how strong is our legal cell, leadership. We cannot always win this war with physical power alone. In all aspects we have to be smart enough to foresee the next move of IOC.
We have many cases against individual churches, we should call for a review meeting of these church cases in presence of our central legal cell at Patriarch center. Decide combine actions to be taken ahead in court considering past failures. We cry only when court verdict comes, I think we are expecting some more verdicts by this year. Please do a status meeting with those churches atleast now.
Strengthen our central legal team with advocates for our church itself. Make sure, No future cases by any Jacobite church should be submitted in court without the review of our central legal cell.
When we blame our past, please consider the facts
In 80s- 90s hardly 50% or less youth may had any college degree in our parishes. Today we are well ahead to standup.
In 80s-90s hardly 10% or less members of a parish where in abroad/middle east. Today its 50-60% of homes have some presence, whatever may be labor or blue color. We can fund church.
In 80s- 90s hardly 10% or less had TV or daily news paper or internet at home.. Today its 100% with so many options. You cannot be misguided today.
In 80s-90s per cent of land cost is Rs. 900, now its Rs. 2-3 lacs, We are more confident in facing challenges.
80s -90s was a true period of struggle, but God graced as well and we are more happy than those days. Thank him.
Let us appreciate the members who resisted IOC move in 80s-90s. They did their job well within their limitations. Now we have to take it forward, without mistakes. when we are in fight for survival, there is no space for ego.
--- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Sabu Alias wrote:
> Dear moderators,
> Please see the attached files and put the same in the forum . The settlement has been reached after continuous pressure from Govt. Now a days our church is forced to fight against the Govt. The whole govt. machinery is acting as IOC. Our believers who are in responsible positions in Govt is not able to stand with the church . Otherwise the corrupt MPZ RDO and DySp would not have been in that seat. Collector even forgetting about his status has passed a fake order which created this problem. Now the same problem he has refered to AG!!! . For the worst he is now threatening to close the church !! We are passing through very difficult situation . In this circumstance Our Bava directed us to move away from this IOC satan by allowing a charity. So the Parish assembly decided to give the Sundayschool Ground.
- Dear all, I had personally withdrawn from writing anything about church cases in this forum, since i didnt want to argue with some of our eminent priests. MyMessage 6 of 15 , May 8, 2012View SourceDear all,
I had personally withdrawn from writing anything about church cases in this forum, since i didnt want to argue with some of our eminent priests.
My communication is only to people who belong to the individual parish churches.
Anybody going through 95 SC can understand that there are four specific parts to that judgment. Simhasana Churches and EAE are given express orders to remain in their own armpit.. ie fully under the Holy See.. Knanaya is given a leverage for their existence... ie they are asked to follow 34 constitution as being part of malankara church but subject to their own constitution... needless to say the knanaya constitution will prevail because there is no question of them accepting 34.
Now comes the church... Since the malankara association was called by SC with an SC appointed Observer in place in 2002 at parumala, i dont think we have anything to claim on the common properties. ( we have means of claiming them if we go according to the cochin award, but sadly none of us are interested)
Now the parish churches.. Where do they stand... Its fact that 95 SC gave them a sort of in-dependency... Unlike the common trust properties 95 SC didnt consider the parish churches as an integral part of malankara church...
This is where the creation of a seperate association mattered... Because once the parish churches were given a sort of independency by SC there was always scope for a seperate association of those parish churches...
Now, people who have always been against the creation of this association can vomit anything now...
Just consider our situation pre 95, 95-2002, and post 2002... Since the creation of Jacobite Syrian Christian Association we have had a platform to stay together... and this association is never barred from functioning by any court in this land... and any individual parish church who wants to associate with this association have that right...
That is where it counts... Are those parish churches part of this association.... If so why they pull back from declaring it...
95-2002 period some of our parish churches had to declare allegiance to 34 constitution... but why those same parish churches are not clearly declaring their allegiance to 2002 association now...
The problem with some of our parish churches now is that they are not "stable" enough to declare that they are part of 2002 association... Probably some people who were against the formation of 2002 association is behind that...
To mani rajan achen... 1.95 SC had given full freedom for simhasana churches to be directly under the Holy See... but in arthat simhasana church we see kottayam catholica conducting services... why is it so... even after 17 years... ( no need to reply because i know the answer...)
does it mean that there was any mistake in the way we conducted the cases... personally i will never tell that...
2. """"There is no point in blaming? We need collective wisdom in legal issues!"""""
Few years back i went to an advocate for simhasana churches to collect a copy of their affidavet in Kerala HC in the Execution petition filed by IOC..( 3 days after the discussion in hotel excellency in which you were also there)... He ( a member of our church) declined and told me to get a copy from HC after paying the fee... So much to talk about "collective wisdom"
People who can open their eyes can see why some of our churches are losing but some others are winning...
But, Jacobite Syrian Christian association remains even now after 10 years of existence, unchallenged in a court of law..
frankly, i feel its better for the parish churches to face the court, in association with the jacobite syrian christian association rather than pulling up some centuries old udampadis... people who tell me iam wrong should tell me why churches who are upholding the udampadis directly fell into ioc trap...
St George Valiapally
- DEAR MODERATORS/FRIENDS, 1] I was advised not to respond. However, being a personal attack, I feel that there should be a clarification, 2] Whatever that IMessage 7 of 15 , May 8, 2012View SourceDEAR MODERATORS/FRIENDS,
1] I was advised not to respond. However, being a personal attack, I feel that there should be a clarification,
2] Whatever that I have mentioned in my message are borne out by records available in court. AIR 1998 KERALA 237 is a reported decision which anyone can obtain and read.The intention is not to instrcut the IOC Lawyers as the writer of the message imagines. The idea is to point out the inadvertent mistakes to my brothers so that it is not repeated at this final stage of the litigation,
3]Whatever has been read between the lines by Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo,is baseless.If somebody imagines that there is a Ghost in between the lines of my message, it is his own problem.
4] During the pendency of the SLP,there was no such status quo as mentioned by Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo. The status quo order is dated 12.4.1991 which directed that conduct of religious services and administration of each parish church will continue as on the date of judgement of Division Bench till the disposal of the Appeal.It was followed by two directions allowing the Patriarch Faction to fill up vacancies of Vicara/Priests and Bishops on 30.10.1991 and 5.12.1991.Who got these orders?
5] The order referred to by Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo is after the disposal of the Appeals by the Supreme Court pending election of Malankara Association and its Managing Committee in accordance with the amended 1934,Constitution. Any right minded person reading the Judgement of Supreme Court reported in AIR 1995 SC 2001, AIR 1996 SC 3121 AND AIR 1997 SC 1035 CAN UNDERSTAND THIS FACT.
6] Who is intimidating whom? Is Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo intimidated by the "leaders" mentioned in the message. Shall we read between the lines here?
7] I have a simple question to ask Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo. Do you accept the formation of the JACOBITE SYRIAN CHRISTIAN ASSOCIATION AND ITS CONSTITUTION OF 2002? Who is instrumental in its formation? Who opined that the erstwhile Patriarh Faction can exist without being slave to the Catholicos faction by relying upon the Indian Constitution?
Shall we read between the lines,Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo???
- Dear Gleeson, Excellent Post Brother.This is an eye opener. And congratulations on Arakkunnam JSO Church declared as Valiya Pally . In your post you mentionedMessage 8 of 15 , May 9, 2012View SourceDear Gleeson,
Excellent Post Brother.This is an eye opener.
And congratulations on Arakkunnam JSO Church declared as "Valiya Pally". In your post you mentioned its intended for those belonging to 'individual parish churches'. Now I know Piravom Church is one among this list.What are the other Churches? Kothamangalam Church? Manarcadu too? Now things are even more clear!
Hope some of our Metropolitans active in this FORUM will take a print out of this debate and discuss in the SYNOD meetings(?). By the way Mannuthi is doing this! Hope SOCM debate is making some change whatever small it might be!
Frusturation is high. We know its easy to blame. Can our leaders persuade those church trustee(s)/vicar(s) to cordinate before taking
any measures. Many of the SOCM readers dont know who's who in our working committe ! Who is Lay Trustee, Treasurer and Clergy Trustee ? And their duties? Check these link of other Faiths:
The IO plan is clear now - Muscle power in SOUTH and LEGAL power in NORTH and the 3 member alliance (MVPA-MANNUTHI-PAMKDA) is ready to take on us and they have made all resources available at their finger tip!
Its hurting and now irritating - Few Jacobite churches just getting life by youth power! it is THE time to reward our Youth by making them the next leaders! Name and fame who cares!For us FAITH comes first. If no action from leadership, can't blame Jacobite going/joining Catholic Churches that got similar Qurbana System. Read the signs please! Left and Right to each of our famous churches new new Catholic churches are coming up!
Its obvious that 'Individualistic' practice will bite back one day.
Its also learned that unfriendly authorities can create fake orders.
It is also clear that 1-1 game is played-but sadly with our properties
(Read - collector support at Thrikkunnath and Collector order for Piravom)
Its time to take proactive measures.Whatever happened is GOOD.
Lets us work as a team and let this be our first assignment.
One should listen to this educative video :
Link : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m42oUro8sw
But below one is THE MOST hurting and provocative!
- Dear Moderators What is to be read in between lines? 1. The office bearers of the Piravom church are not consulting the central legal cell. 2. TheMessage 9 of 15 , May 10, 2012View SourceDear Moderators
What is to be read in between lines?
1. The office bearers of the Piravom church are not consulting the central legal cell.
2. The signatories of the agreement to allow IOC to stage some declaration is not legally valid and in the wisdom of some others it will end up in further issues.
3. The legal cell of the Piravom church is acting contrary to wisdom of central legal cell.
My humble question is – “Are these to be debated in a public forum?” To enlighten the Piravom church office bearers, which is the forum? Is it appropriate to make the office bearers anxious about the chances of failure in the case which will persuade office bearers to consult the central legal cell or to persuade faithful of the Piravom church to turn against their own elected office bearers? - is that the agenda.
What is collective wisdom?
I am not referring to any name here which is never my agenda. Kunnamkulam Simhasana church case was initiated in 1959, there were two remand orders since 1959 and now the case is before HC after three judgments from the District court. Somebody was referring to 17 years of case history of Kunnamkulam Simhasana church. It has a long history of 53 years. It is just to clarify that.
In the SLP before the SC somebody suggested (no names are to be mentioned) that the Church (JSC) will make arrangement to represent for the Simhasana Church cases. Late Mor Osthatheos Bennyamin Joseph thirumeni of blessed memory was firm that there is conflict of interest and it should be represented separately. It is in this context that some documents were not shared with some persons as accused in the posting. One must learn to see others point of view.
Collective wisdom is not blindly following anybody’s wisdom. Therefore, I have posted what I thought I must seeing repeated postings of the kind. I would like to bring out specific instances to substantiate what I have written but it will not serve the interest of Church, therefore I will not. Autonomy of the churches are to be respected in any case. Anybody can advise! Sorry if my posting insulted anybody which was not my motive.
Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-episcopo
- Very Rev Achan, Is there any effective central legal cell as you highlight?. What we have seen is some greedy lawyers who are not interested in protecting ourMessage 10 of 15 , May 14, 2012View SourceVery Rev Achan,
Is there any effective central legal cell as you highlight?. What we have seen is some greedy lawyers who are not interested in protecting our churches rather to thicken their pockets. Every one is advocating not to mention the 2002 constitution or the JSC association!. How do we get justice?. Our church which is 163 year old and having a registered udampadi of 1890 is now closed because of our vicar's defection and now the Govt and police are advocating for the defected preist and his hooligans. We still do not have a collective forum to discuss the legal issues of our various churches. Only GOD can save us.
In HIS Love,
--- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Very Rev. Dr. Mani Rajan Corepiscopo wrote:
> Dear Moderators
> What is to be read in between lines?