- Dear moderators,
Please see the attached files and put the same in the forum . The settlement has been reached after continuous pressure from Govt. Now a days our church is forced to fight against the Govt. The whole govt. machinery is acting as IOC. Our believers who are in responsible positions in Govt is not able to stand with the church . Otherwise the corrupt MPZ RDO and DySp would not have been in that seat. Collector even forgetting about his status has passed a fake order which created this problem. Now the same problem he has refered to AG!!! . For the worst he is now threatening to close the church !! We are passing through very difficult situation . In this circumstance Our Bava directed us to move away from this IOC satan by allowing a charity. So the Parish assembly decided to give the Sundayschool Ground.
Please remember and pray for our church in each and every moment. With a sinking heart the Piravom Jacobites allowed the "Nestorian Qurbana" to be conducted in the Sunday School compound. Nestore torched our Church, using the then rulers of Middle east. Now IOC (the Modern Nestore) is doing the same using Umman Chandi and Thiruvanchoor. We overcame that period throug prayer and meditation. Request the same from everybody.
Let us express our heartfelt gratitude to the believers from Kollam Kattachira and Manarcadu who were with us during the "PrarthanaYanjam". They were in doubt how we allowed this . Hope evrybody understands the reality.
- To All.
Praise the LORD.
There is no settlement with regards to the Piravum church "cathedral" declaration by IOC. IOC is allowed to use the ground for their holy qurubana..
What IOC will do they will utilize that time and declare as Piravum church as cathedral�, even though the church is not under IOC custody..
At the end it was an utter failure on behalf of Syrian Orthodox Church..
I wish in future if somebody of Syrian Orthodox Church become the Prime Minister of India and he/she loves the Syrian Church; could help SOC in resolving all church disputes (i.e. no rights for IOC in SOC church & its properties)..
- The news regarding the agreement with IO church allowing them to declare OUR Piravom church as a Cathedral is very painful.
There are Christian communities struggling to survive from assaults from non-Christians. But there may not be any church like ours in this world, which has to survive against the arrogance and greed of our own brothers.
It is a shameful display of the IO church leadership's deceit and meanness, to declare our Pirvavom church without supporters sufficient to fill its corridor, as a Cathedral. Is their intended 7-alter Qurbana to glorify God or some kind of a demonstration.
It will be a surprise if this issue ends with the declaration. Their malicious and wicked intentions will start rolling out soon.
If they need a church to worship, they have a catholicate centre big enough for them.
How many of them, including their forefathers, have contributed with money or efforts to build these churches? The only basis for their claim is that someone from these churches, have attended their association meeting. We have seen our members mention instances of unauthorized persons from our churches like S.Parur church attending it, with a letter from the betrayer Bishop Athanasius who himself can never go anywhere near it.
His friend bishop Militios contemptuously refers to our church as Jacobite society church in his messages, forgetting that he was ordained by this society church, and his present associates didn't see the need to ordain him again properly after their association's democratic procedures as per their constitution.
If there was any goodness in them, we would have settled these issues long ago, and concentrated on issues for which the church is meant for. When we cannot agree to be together, it is better to part gracefully. The Group with fewer members can claim compensation from the majority to build a church for worship and exist as sister Churches. If we prosper spiritually and goodness returns, our future generations may see reasons to unite as one church.
We, unfortunately, do not have the luxury of dealing with people with decency and fairness. How can anyone negotiate with such a wretched and dishonest people? They are getting more ambitious and vicious. They feel comfortable enough to destroy the peace where they are in a minority, assisted by the present political leadership in Kerala.
The IO church is able to hurt our church with the help of the bishops and some priests who were with us and who have betrayed our church and its people. For their personal survival they tend to out beat the originals in inflicting so much suffering to our people and still live among us. In spite of their quoting the constitution, history and whatever that suits them, it is greed, arrogance and dishonesty that drive them. Negotiations will never work with those who keep repeating ... subject to acceptance of 1934.....� which is a treasure to exercise their manipulating skills with their inherent dishonesty and cunningness. They will never understand and appreciate fairness.
It is time to be more aggressive to protect our churches. Our efforts must be better co-ordinated. Enlist the support for all willing members from all our churches in Kerala. We must be able to have a mechanism to identify, and act swiftly and decisively with the help of resourceful members and friends of our church. We must stop them from even dreaming to capture churches built by somebody else's sweat. The people who live amongst us and collude with the church capturers must think of how they will live there after trying to capture our properties.
Make our church much more cohesive. Activate Prayer groups in all parishes, and organize joint prayer meetings periodically. Our church must grow spiritually and our fellowship must grow stronger. Resolve disputes amongt us. Have a system to review and correct mistakes in managing the affairs of our church, with representation of lay members of our church wherever prudent, so that complaints and grievances are resolved soon, so that our church and its institutions are free of frustration.
When our members and parishes are united, our opinion matters to authorities.
Encourage everyone we know to contribute to the best of their ability and make themselves available for the church as much as possible, in these days when the very survival of our church is threatened, and must pray for our bishops, priests and other servants of our church and our shresta Catholica bawa who is lead by Lord Jesus.
May God bless our church.
- Dear Friends,
The saga of Piravom Church being converted to a Cathedral is coming to a close.
One is left to wonder as to what purpose is achieved by this sort of declaration being done outside the Church.
High Religious dignitaries of both the Sabha are not able to enter inside the Piravom Church and conduct Holy Qurbana from its Altar.
Even after 12th of May/2012, the Piravom Church building will continue to be of the same shape and size.
However, to bring out the truth relating to the affairs,I would like to say the following,viz;
" [i] There was a Suit, O.S No 15/1977, instituted by the Catholicos faction basically to declare that the Piravom Church to be administered by the provisions of the 1934, Constitution of malankara orthodox church.In 1980-1981, there was Court direction to conduct election of managing committee and trustees through an Advocate Commissioner without following the provisions of any Constitution. This was carried out. Committee members and trustees elected were directed to continue as Receivers of the Court,
[ii] Needless to say that all committee members and trustees were from the Patriarch Faction. Point to be noted is that it was a court held election without following any disputed Constitution. The records of this election is in Court and it is public record.The number of voters identifying with both factions is clear friom the said record,
[iii] After the judgement of Supreme Court in 1995, the Orthodox Faction withdrew from O S No 15 of 1977.They also wanted the court elected committee members to hand over possession to those who were in management on the date of the said suit.
[iv] The above stand of the Orthodox Faction ultimately resulted in the Judgement of the Division Bench of the High Court of Kerala reported in AIR 1998 KERALA 237.The Division Bench directed Conduct of elections of fresh Committee members and trustees of Piravom Church by following the provisions of the 1934, Constitution through COMMISSIONERS.
[V] There was a direction that each voter of the Parish Assembly of the Piravom Church should swear allegiance to the 1934, Constitution in the form of an affidavit presented to the Commissioners.The reasoning of the Division Bench was that each Voter of the Parish Assembly is holding an "office" in the Malankara Church and is ,therefore, bound by the directions contained in the Apex Court order reported in AIR 1997 SC 1035,
[VI] The Apex Court had directed that each office bearer appointed by the rival factions after 1.1.1971 should swear allegiance to 1934, Constitution subject to which status quo was directed to be maintained till a fair election of the Managing Committee of the Malankara Association is held,
[vii] A "Voter" of the Parish Assembly is not appointed by anyone. He gets his rights as a voter by virtue of the fact that he/she is a member of the Church.It is an integral part of the democracy which is recognised as a basic tenent of the Church by the Supreme Court of INDIA. THE DIRECTION TO THE VOTER TO SWEAR ALLEGIANCE TO 1934, CONSTITUTION IS FUNDAMENDALLY WRONG AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHALLENGED,
[viii] The " Legal Cell" of the Piravom Church in their wisdom did not challenge it. They forced each voter of Piravom Church to affix Signatures in affidavits swearing allegiance to the 1934, Constitution. Accordingly fresh elections were held through Court and the trusttees and committee members took charge of Piravom Pally. It was repeated in subsequent years also. The present trustees and committee members are obviously elected by following this procedure through Court,
[ix] In other words, the trustees and committee members of Piravom Church are holding office on the basis of interim directions passed by the Court[ Special Court for Church Cases and confirmed by the HIGH COURT OF KERALA. THEY ARE ALL BOUND BY THE DIVISION BENCH RULING MENTIONED ABOVE WITH RESPECT TO PIRAVOM CHURCH.
[xi] There is now a Suit, O.S No 6 of 1985= under consideration by the Special Court for Church Cases [Additional District Court, Ernakulam]. The prayer therein is that there should be a Declaration that the Piravom Church should be administered by the 1934, Constitution. Trial has started. It is at an advanced stage.
This is the time for those in charge of the affairs of this ancient Jacobite Church to carefully apply their mind as to what exactly is their defence in this Suit.Did they have a discussion with the Jacobite Church Legal Cell under His Beatitude as to whether their contentions are legally and factually tenable at this stage? Heve they read the Judgement by the Special Court for Church Cases [Additional District Court, Ernakulam] in the Kolencherry Church case?
Hope that you will do it so that the Piravom Church will not be trapped by the Orthodox Faction through judicial process.
MISTAKES COMMITTED ARE THE FOLLOWING,VIZ;
[A] Not challenging the illegal direction that each voter of the Parish Assembly is holding an office in the Malankara Church and that they should swear allegiance to the 1934, Constituition of the Malankara Church to qualify as a Voter,
[B] Not challenging the order of the District Collector immediately. Waiting for our function to be over and then challenging it was a mistake.
It is hoped that our emotional brothers at Piravom Church will not repeat the above mistakes. Ignore vested interests with bloated ego at work. Contact Church Secretary and Bva and get your matter discussed and considered at Sabha level. Kolencherry people did not do it when their suit was considered by the Special Court for Church Cases [Additional District Court, Ernakulam]. They lost the case.Rest is history.
Chev; Advocate P J PHILIP,
- Dear All,
I had seen lot of members expressing their view to file cases against
IOC in their parishes where jacobite faithfuls are minority in order
to counter attack their acting of giving cases against jacobite
parishes. It is a true fact that they are playing the game putting the
ball in our court, whatever happens win or lose, they are making gain
out of them. So filing cases against some orthodox parishes where
there is jacobite faithful presence will help to put the ball in their
court also .
But I personally disagree to this view as it is against Christian
values. More over we know the pain and sufferings of court cases. Why
we make innocent orthodox faithful to be suffered for their leadership
action's. Then there will be no difference between orthodox and a
jacobite. we don't forget the fact that a huge majority of general
orthodox faithful have respect on our church and they know that they
are actually a part of universal Syrian orthodox church where their
spiritual father is Patriarch of Antioch. In fact they are very much
disturbed with the recent happenings in their church like
manipulations in their association election, blade people governing
their church, destroying the church name in front of public by
entering into politics and public street protest for cases against
jacobite churches and about the last trend of giving birth of new
churches from IOC. We see that two new churches has been generated
from IOC named Bharathiya orthodox church and Malankara Nazrani
orthodox church. Lot of priests and Faithfuls left IOC and joined new
church. We can see some eight to ten IOC priests attending a Holy mass
by the new bishop of the new church ( BOC ) in the photos uploaded in
Face book. In their own news paper, Malayala Manorama we see that even
a new catholica bava ( MNOC ) has been ordained from IOC. If the
result of their priest trustee election was different, then by this
time we should see another church formed in North from IOC. In future
we can see more churches generated from IOC. The symptoms started in
places like amayannur, mavelikara, kottarakara, Kollam etc. Even we
see one of the big parish of IOC with 250 + families at vennikulam
have conducted holy mass with the new bishop from the new church. So
now they started earning for what they done in past and still
continuing. For selfishness they get separated from Syrian orthodox
church in past and at that time they never think that in future this
may lead for generating new churches from them in each districts.
People who read the last two or three editions of their magazine "
Malankara Dheepam " can see lot of priests and faithfuls expressing
their anger and frustrations with regard to the election of priest
trustee. Soon we can observe the outcome of this.
So in this scenario, it is not good to follow the same thing they had
done towards our church by giving court cases against them.This will
only help to provoke them which will lead to violence and the goodwill
our church will get affected. Instead of that we should start taking
steps to make innocent orthodox faithful attracted towards our
church.This won't be never through offering money or positions like
how they did. We should only welcome those faithfuls and priests who
want to be proud on becoming a member of a universal church with great
tradition and history ( Its not like, in one morning simply telling
that this is 1960th birthday of church ) There are lot of jacobite
faithfulls left as members of orthodox churches in the southern part
of kerala. ( For example in Kayamkulam kadheesha church, Puthuppally
church, Omalloor orthodox church, Thiruvalla kattappuram church,
Kottarakara church etc ). Till now our church have not taken any
steps to support them. So now we have to take steps to bring them back
to our church. we should identify such areas and try to include them
in nearby jacobite churches or to take initiative to start new
parishes if needed. Initially there should be obstacles and we can't
expect all the said faithfuls joining back our church in a single call
but i am sure good follow up will give better results and what ever we
are gaining is a win for us.
I humbly request our leadership to have a call of all bishops, priests
& committee members of all spiritual organizations from southern part
of kerala including central kerala to collect data and information's
on this subject and later have to action for getting things done. When
they started realizing that they are loosing faithfuls from their
parishes then this will help to minimize the strength of there
satanic acting's in our parishes in north. May be this will become an
eye opener to lot of other orthodox faithfuls for their non christian
My parish is in south and there are few orthodox parishes in and
around my parish out of which our nearby two orthodox parish have some
jacobite families as its members. In one parish there is around 15
families and in other one there is around 30 families. Our parish had
taken the initiative to have discussion with these families and to
make them join our parish under B class membership.Several round of
discussion already over and at last 20 families are ready to join our
parish. We are in process of preparing legal documents in order to
take sign from them on account that later they won't create any issues
in our parish. In order to keep the confidentiality I am not
disclosing the name of our parish. But we were wondering if each
parish of our church in central kerala and south kerala should take
this initiative then what will be the result. there will be
difficulties and obstacles in this project but the result will make us
to rejoice. Even in this mission initially we got resistance from our
own family members in our parish but slowly we were able to convince
them and at last when result came they also become more active on
this. Even we are planning to make monthly membership free for newly
come poor families and to construct a common cell in cemetery for them
freely. These mentioned family members stood in orthodox parishes at
the time of split that happens in 1970's. We asked these family
members, why they didn't join the nearby jacobite parishes or
construct new parish. We got different answers out which i am
mentioning some of their replies below.
a) At that time Our church doesn't have a administrative set up to
b) They don't have enough money to establish a new parish
c) Issues lied between different families doesn't allow them to join
nearby jacobite parishes
d) The strength of orthodox in southern part allow the orthodox people
to dominate them.
e) Seeking peace they didn't go for any protests
So i strongly believe this as a better way to give a reply to IOC for
their false preachings and acting's. IOC way have more professors and
millionaires than us, they may have some more number of parishes,
cathedrals, priests, dioceses and bishops than us, they may have more
institutions and medias than us, they may have more political
influence and muscle power than us. But in two areas they are very
below to us , In faith and in number of faithful's. We have 1 church
with 3000+ families where they didn't have a single one, we have 3
churches with more than 2000+ families where they didn't have anything
, we have more than 10 churches with 1000+ families where they have
only two. Their big church puthuppally parish is only having a
strength of 600 families only out of which around 150 families are
jacobite faithful's currently. Apart from thisMore than 125 jacobite
families already get separated few years back and build a new parish
in front of puthuppally parish.This is number excluding We have
several old churches which is more than 1000 years old where that have
only very few, that also forcefully taken away from us. More than this
we have our Holy father jesus christ, our spiritual leader Moran and
our aboon with us.
So be proud of our church and joint hands together to protect our
faith and to ensure that even a single faithful ( our strength )
shouldn't left our church. I humbly request your views and concerns on
this matter and also request if anybody who is in touch with our
leadership should seriously discuss this matter with our leadership
and do the needfull to get this mission on action.
Moreover, this is a cashless effort, only required is action from
everyone. Thank god for not having big corporates and blade mafias as
members of our church otherwise by this time we will also become a
professionally originated & managed church like IOC where they give
value only for wealth and money.
T C Abraham
Membership ID : 4521
- Dear all,
The series of postings on Piravom church by Chev.P.J.Philip has been very informative.It reflects his in depth knowledge of the local issues and his understanding of the nuances of legal matters. However, there are a few disturbing issues.There seems to be a lack of coordination between the concerned parish and the central church leadership. The people seem to wake up only when a crisis occurs. The parish legal team apparently keeps the central church legal team at arm's length! What a pitiable state of affairs! It is even more disheartening to note that a similar pattern was followed in Kolencherry. Are we working for SOC or are we working at cross purpose,bothered about only our egos.
We seem to have forgotten past legal lapses again- not getting the court to stay the ordination on Mor Ivanios Murimattam as Catholica in 1912, not sending notice to all parish churches for the Karingachira association of 1935, not forming an association with a constitution in 1970(the public effort in 1980s was stayed by HC, see the IOC move). There seem to have been a concerted legal effort at the central church leadership level since 1998-99 which has paid dividends as one can see from 2002. However the individual parishes need to sincerely cooperate with them.
The 1995 SC verdict is very favourable to individual parishes, IOC will be on the backfoot on this, the rights of the parish churches should not be frittered away.
Ultimately as Chev.Philip mentioned, the court ruling will prevail in a democracy, no politician and/or his administrative/police wing can run a writ to the contrary in the long term.
From the desk of the Moderators:
Please sign your messages with member ID. If you do not have a member ID, please send your details including contact number to moderators (SOCM-FORUMemail@example.com) and obtain a member ID BEFORE POSTING ANY MORE MESSAGES in SOCM. Thank you for your cooperation.
- Dear all
We should appreciate what Mr Abraham brought out the suffering of the
Jacobite faithful in the southern part of Kerala and their sincere effort to bring back the faithful to true belief and real church. WE must start more churches nearby almost every orthodox church, initially with setting up new prayer meeting then the patriarchal Centre similar like Catholoc centre of the IOC in the north and then the full church. Now our church is fully organised, have enough finanacial strength to support these Jacobite faithful people. Church leadership should have a focussed and serious thinking about this matter.
- Dear All.
I have read the message of Mr.T.C.Abraham, intention of the message is very clear and that is in line with the principal of Christianity.
Root cause of the problem in my perception.
1.Freedom in India : We forget that our country accepted all religion and it allowed it to grow. Now we exploit the situation in its full length. If we analyse the situation in Syria , Iraq, etc�what is happening..Christians are struggling because of the law�s of that country along with extremism.
2.Conveniently forget Jesus Christ�s Verses : Especially Jacobits / Orthodox faithful, by mistake thinking to continue focus on controversies of the court cases and to die without attaining what Jesus Christ advised.( Remember 10 virigin story ) we may miss the chance to have �Holy Spirit� in us before our death.
3. Money/Power : If we dig the problem in the beginning, then you would see money is one of the main culprit (including Vattippanam (interest) etc ). Let us think what is the connection between money and spirituality.?. God is ready to give Holy Spirit freely ( cannot buy with money). Again , 2 of our Bishops Jumped to IOC cleverly not because of any drain in spirituality in our church , they jumped with the Property of our church for to snatch something else. ( this part you all can analyze). Is it spirituality they want to attain ?.
4.Owner ship of Church property : We have to have a clear instruction in the matter that the church property should not be in any individual name ( property of church is actually originated from normal laymen�s coins). If it is in any individual name , again we may loose it on individual decisions ( This part is difficult , people who touch on this would be like touching in fire) . If we attain this by keeping the property in the Church�s name under prevailing law( let the legal cell to decide), then we can ensure that Jumping chance will reduce to nil.
5. Best Option : Now we are in a loop like situation where we caught up in 1000 legs octopus(court cases) . 1 Generation is over with this problem ( started in 1800- 2012) and if we wait for next 5 generation ( 500 � 600 years) nothing will happen. At last the question by Pilate will remain �WHAT IS TRUTH� . Pilate doesn�t know that time that Jesus Christ was the Truth. Now we knew that Jesus Christ is the Truth but still we are in the net of the Evil. God is always merciful, let us pray , try to settle the problems of each church one by one amicably ( Share and care) subsequently clear the court cases. Secondly, we may have to create our own identity in all manners.( to avoid future confusions) .
6.Gospel, Every church have to have minimum 1 time �Dhyanam� in each month in order to spread gospel so that all should learn the way of Christian life. ( Currently we will keep our forefinger on nose once we analyses liquor consumption datas in Easter & Christmas). Please let us not crucify our Lord and savior Jesus Christ again. He took all the sins for the dead , living and those yet to born. It is our duty to show the world that we are reflecting the love of Jesus Christ through our life.
All above were my own perceptions, it is up to the readers to decide.
- Dear Moderators
Chev. Adv. Philip is now writing in this forum about legal issues which is like an argument note for the IOC advocates for Piravom case. There is something to be read in between lines. Any sensible person will be able understand the purpose of the analysis. Is it because of some difference of opinion? Who got the 'status quo' order from SC subject to 1934 constitution during the pendency of the SLP? Which is no more in force after the final verdict of the SC, in respect of parish churches. There is no point in blaming? We need collective wisdom in legal issues! We have leaders who intimidate those who talk about some of the legal issues/opinions. The SOC is not a slave to anybody's wisdom. Don't question the integrity of those who air their voice only because of concern for the Church.
Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo
- Dear All,
Hope we are not blaming each other, whatever happened is happened and we have to work together in countering IOC. One thing is sure, only the Fittest will Survive this Fight. This will depend on few things like how strong is our legal cell, leadership. We cannot always win this war with physical power alone. In all aspects we have to be smart enough to foresee the next move of IOC.
We have many cases against individual churches, we should call for a review meeting of these church cases in presence of our central legal cell at Patriarch center. Decide combine actions to be taken ahead in court considering past failures. We cry only when court verdict comes, I think we are expecting some more verdicts by this year. Please do a status meeting with those churches atleast now.
Strengthen our central legal team with advocates for our church itself. Make sure, No future cases by any Jacobite church should be submitted in court without the review of our central legal cell.
When we blame our past, please consider the facts
In 80s- 90s hardly 50% or less youth may had any college degree in our parishes. Today we are well ahead to standup.
In 80s-90s hardly 10% or less members of a parish where in abroad/middle east. Today its 50-60% of homes have some presence, whatever may be labor or blue color. We can fund church.
In 80s- 90s hardly 10% or less had TV or daily news paper or internet at home.. Today its 100% with so many options. You cannot be misguided today.
In 80s-90s per cent of land cost is Rs. 900, now its Rs. 2-3 lacs, We are more confident in facing challenges.
80s -90s was a true period of struggle, but God graced as well and we are more happy than those days. Thank him.
Let us appreciate the members who resisted IOC move in 80s-90s. They did their job well within their limitations. Now we have to take it forward, without mistakes. when we are in fight for survival, there is no space for ego.
--- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Sabu Alias wrote:
> Dear moderators,
> Please see the attached files and put the same in the forum . The settlement has been reached after continuous pressure from Govt. Now a days our church is forced to fight against the Govt. The whole govt. machinery is acting as IOC. Our believers who are in responsible positions in Govt is not able to stand with the church . Otherwise the corrupt MPZ RDO and DySp would not have been in that seat. Collector even forgetting about his status has passed a fake order which created this problem. Now the same problem he has refered to AG!!! . For the worst he is now threatening to close the church !! We are passing through very difficult situation . In this circumstance Our Bava directed us to move away from this IOC satan by allowing a charity. So the Parish assembly decided to give the Sundayschool Ground.
- Dear all,
I had personally withdrawn from writing anything about church cases in this forum, since i didnt want to argue with some of our eminent priests.
My communication is only to people who belong to the individual parish churches.
Anybody going through 95 SC can understand that there are four specific parts to that judgment. Simhasana Churches and EAE are given express orders to remain in their own armpit.. ie fully under the Holy See.. Knanaya is given a leverage for their existence... ie they are asked to follow 34 constitution as being part of malankara church but subject to their own constitution... needless to say the knanaya constitution will prevail because there is no question of them accepting 34.
Now comes the church... Since the malankara association was called by SC with an SC appointed Observer in place in 2002 at parumala, i dont think we have anything to claim on the common properties. ( we have means of claiming them if we go according to the cochin award, but sadly none of us are interested)
Now the parish churches.. Where do they stand... Its fact that 95 SC gave them a sort of in-dependency... Unlike the common trust properties 95 SC didnt consider the parish churches as an integral part of malankara church...
This is where the creation of a seperate association mattered... Because once the parish churches were given a sort of independency by SC there was always scope for a seperate association of those parish churches...
Now, people who have always been against the creation of this association can vomit anything now...
Just consider our situation pre 95, 95-2002, and post 2002... Since the creation of Jacobite Syrian Christian Association we have had a platform to stay together... and this association is never barred from functioning by any court in this land... and any individual parish church who wants to associate with this association have that right...
That is where it counts... Are those parish churches part of this association.... If so why they pull back from declaring it...
95-2002 period some of our parish churches had to declare allegiance to 34 constitution... but why those same parish churches are not clearly declaring their allegiance to 2002 association now...
The problem with some of our parish churches now is that they are not "stable" enough to declare that they are part of 2002 association... Probably some people who were against the formation of 2002 association is behind that...
To mani rajan achen... 1.95 SC had given full freedom for simhasana churches to be directly under the Holy See... but in arthat simhasana church we see kottayam catholica conducting services... why is it so... even after 17 years... ( no need to reply because i know the answer...)
does it mean that there was any mistake in the way we conducted the cases... personally i will never tell that...
2. """"There is no point in blaming? We need collective wisdom in legal issues!"""""
Few years back i went to an advocate for simhasana churches to collect a copy of their affidavet in Kerala HC in the Execution petition filed by IOC..( 3 days after the discussion in hotel excellency in which you were also there)... He ( a member of our church) declined and told me to get a copy from HC after paying the fee... So much to talk about "collective wisdom"
People who can open their eyes can see why some of our churches are losing but some others are winning...
But, Jacobite Syrian Christian association remains even now after 10 years of existence, unchallenged in a court of law..
frankly, i feel its better for the parish churches to face the court, in association with the jacobite syrian christian association rather than pulling up some centuries old udampadis... people who tell me iam wrong should tell me why churches who are upholding the udampadis directly fell into ioc trap...
St George Valiapally
- DEAR MODERATORS/FRIENDS,
1] I was advised not to respond. However, being a personal attack, I feel that there should be a clarification,
2] Whatever that I have mentioned in my message are borne out by records available in court. AIR 1998 KERALA 237 is a reported decision which anyone can obtain and read.The intention is not to instrcut the IOC Lawyers as the writer of the message imagines. The idea is to point out the inadvertent mistakes to my brothers so that it is not repeated at this final stage of the litigation,
3]Whatever has been read between the lines by Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo,is baseless.If somebody imagines that there is a Ghost in between the lines of my message, it is his own problem.
4] During the pendency of the SLP,there was no such status quo as mentioned by Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo. The status quo order is dated 12.4.1991 which directed that conduct of religious services and administration of each parish church will continue as on the date of judgement of Division Bench till the disposal of the Appeal.It was followed by two directions allowing the Patriarch Faction to fill up vacancies of Vicara/Priests and Bishops on 30.10.1991 and 5.12.1991.Who got these orders?
5] The order referred to by Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo is after the disposal of the Appeals by the Supreme Court pending election of Malankara Association and its Managing Committee in accordance with the amended 1934,Constitution. Any right minded person reading the Judgement of Supreme Court reported in AIR 1995 SC 2001, AIR 1996 SC 3121 AND AIR 1997 SC 1035 CAN UNDERSTAND THIS FACT.
6] Who is intimidating whom? Is Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo intimidated by the "leaders" mentioned in the message. Shall we read between the lines here?
7] I have a simple question to ask Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo. Do you accept the formation of the JACOBITE SYRIAN CHRISTIAN ASSOCIATION AND ITS CONSTITUTION OF 2002? Who is instrumental in its formation? Who opined that the erstwhile Patriarh Faction can exist without being slave to the Catholicos faction by relying upon the Indian Constitution?
Shall we read between the lines,Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-epicopo???
- Dear Gleeson,
Excellent Post Brother.This is an eye opener.
And congratulations on Arakkunnam JSO Church declared as "Valiya Pally". In your post you mentioned its intended for those belonging to 'individual parish churches'. Now I know Piravom Church is one among this list.What are the other Churches? Kothamangalam Church? Manarcadu too? Now things are even more clear!
Hope some of our Metropolitans active in this FORUM will take a print out of this debate and discuss in the SYNOD meetings(?). By the way Mannuthi is doing this! Hope SOCM debate is making some change whatever small it might be!
Frusturation is high. We know its easy to blame. Can our leaders persuade those church trustee(s)/vicar(s) to cordinate before taking
any measures. Many of the SOCM readers dont know who's who in our working committe ! Who is Lay Trustee, Treasurer and Clergy Trustee ? And their duties? Check these link of other Faiths:
The IO plan is clear now - Muscle power in SOUTH and LEGAL power in NORTH and the 3 member alliance (MVPA-MANNUTHI-PAMKDA) is ready to take on us and they have made all resources available at their finger tip!
Its hurting and now irritating - Few Jacobite churches just getting life by youth power! it is THE time to reward our Youth by making them the next leaders! Name and fame who cares!For us FAITH comes first. If no action from leadership, can't blame Jacobite going/joining Catholic Churches that got similar Qurbana System. Read the signs please! Left and Right to each of our famous churches new new Catholic churches are coming up!
Its obvious that 'Individualistic' practice will bite back one day.
Its also learned that unfriendly authorities can create fake orders.
It is also clear that 1-1 game is played-but sadly with our properties
(Read - collector support at Thrikkunnath and Collector order for Piravom)
Its time to take proactive measures.Whatever happened is GOOD.
Lets us work as a team and let this be our first assignment.
One should listen to this educative video :
Link : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m42oUro8sw
But below one is THE MOST hurting and provocative!
- Dear Moderators
What is to be read in between lines?
1. The office bearers of the Piravom church are not consulting the central legal cell.
2. The signatories of the agreement to allow IOC to stage some declaration is not legally valid and in the wisdom of some others it will end up in further issues.
3. The legal cell of the Piravom church is acting contrary to wisdom of central legal cell.
My humble question is – “Are these to be debated in a public forum?” To enlighten the Piravom church office bearers, which is the forum? Is it appropriate to make the office bearers anxious about the chances of failure in the case which will persuade office bearers to consult the central legal cell or to persuade faithful of the Piravom church to turn against their own elected office bearers? - is that the agenda.
What is collective wisdom?
I am not referring to any name here which is never my agenda. Kunnamkulam Simhasana church case was initiated in 1959, there were two remand orders since 1959 and now the case is before HC after three judgments from the District court. Somebody was referring to 17 years of case history of Kunnamkulam Simhasana church. It has a long history of 53 years. It is just to clarify that.
In the SLP before the SC somebody suggested (no names are to be mentioned) that the Church (JSC) will make arrangement to represent for the Simhasana Church cases. Late Mor Osthatheos Bennyamin Joseph thirumeni of blessed memory was firm that there is conflict of interest and it should be represented separately. It is in this context that some documents were not shared with some persons as accused in the posting. One must learn to see others point of view.
Collective wisdom is not blindly following anybody’s wisdom. Therefore, I have posted what I thought I must seeing repeated postings of the kind. I would like to bring out specific instances to substantiate what I have written but it will not serve the interest of Church, therefore I will not. Autonomy of the churches are to be respected in any case. Anybody can advise! Sorry if my posting insulted anybody which was not my motive.
Dr. Mani Rajan Cor-episcopo
- Very Rev Achan,
Is there any effective central legal cell as you highlight?. What we have seen is some greedy lawyers who are not interested in protecting our churches rather to thicken their pockets. Every one is advocating not to mention the 2002 constitution or the JSC association!. How do we get justice?. Our church which is 163 year old and having a registered udampadi of 1890 is now closed because of our vicar's defection and now the Govt and police are advocating for the defected preist and his hooligans. We still do not have a collective forum to discuss the legal issues of our various churches. Only GOD can save us.
In HIS Love,
--- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Very Rev. Dr. Mani Rajan Corepiscopo wrote:
> Dear Moderators
> What is to be read in between lines?