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Re: RCC communion

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  • daniel_reji
    Dear brother Thomas P If laymen do not follow the guidelines of the Synod or the instructions of the church, we can t blame the Church or its leaders for that.
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 15, 2002
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      Dear brother Thomas P

      If laymen do not follow the guidelines of the Synod or the
      instructions of the church, we can't blame the Church or its leaders
      for that. As we are the part of the Church, it is our duty and we
      have to follow them.

      Now comes back to Malankara, as long as the Christianity exist in
      Malankara, the laymen will attend the Liturgies of other factions.
      This is not because of the understanding of the theology but it is
      because of our relations. Especially in the Travancore area each
      family have the relatives from all the Christian sects. They can't
      run away or stay away from the other liturgy services. As long as
      Syrian Orthodox Church has an understanding with RC on Holy Qurbono
      the belivers can receive the Holy Communion with out any second
      thoughts. This applied to both factions of the Malankara
      (Catholicose / Patriarch), because the Church in Malankara is the
      integral part of the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church (By the
      Malankara Constitution and the verdict of Honorable Supreme Court of
      India and teaching of the late laminated fathers.)

      Above all Orthodoxy is not a religion it is a way of life, which
      taught us by the Almighty and his Apostle.

      In my personal opinion if a layman accept the Holy Bread and Holy
      Wine with the stern believe that what he receiving is the Body &
      Blood of the Almighty he will be benefited from it regardless it is
      given by whom (within apostolic church)?

      If a Malankara Syrian Christian receives the Holy Communion from
      Patriarch or Catholicose with out the true believe, that will be only
      a "Godampappm and Munthiri Charu".

      How many of us respect the Holy Bread and Wine? How many of us
      participated the Holy Qurbono from the beginning of the Liturgy? How
      many of us know what happening their? How many of us know what
      happening during the "Anpudayooney….." singing? I notice many people
      take this short period for a rest. One more thing which I noticed
      (includes me) we stand with a lazy mood with typical "Kiyee Ketty
      Nilpu" even on "Ezhinnallipu".

      For all these things I cant blame my church. We should blame our
      parents and godparents for it. And partially the Priesthood also has
      to be blamed. Nowadays majority of them are not interested the Gospel
      works instead of they are interested so called "Jeeva Karunya
      Pravarthanagal", were they can get public image, name and so on….

      So let us rectify our self before blaming our Church & Holy Synod.
      Because we are Church. Without us no Church.

      Thomas Daniel


      --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "thomas_pa1" <thomas_pa1@y...> wrote:

      > So, to answer Daniel, it is true that His Holiness Patriarch's
      > agreement means only communion in certain situations. But, knowing
      > our people, I can predict for sure that eventually younger
      generation
      > (especially those living outside Kerala) will go to RCC because
      > of shorter service. Also there is no singing and other participation
      > of laity in RCC liturgy.

      > -Thomas
    • John Philip
      Thomas_ Pal brother, In your last response to me, you severely criticized all our SyrianFathers. Here again you are criticizing only our bishops. Why you
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 15, 2002
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        Thomas_ Pal  brother,
         
         In your last response to me, you severely criticized all our SyrianFathers.  Here again you are criticizing only our bishops. Why you are not looking into your own community instead of digging into others.  Do you think everyone in your church are ok.  Can you deny the fact that even your church have reservations about many of your highest dignitaries.  In this era of switching loyalties for material gains, do you know there is a Very Important person in your Church who has stopped going to the Church itself.  Do you really wants to know why ?, Please come here at Kottayam and contact your top Church dignitary and enquire who is it & why ?  Remember he has not switched sides, but stopped going to Churches and avoids all the Priests and Bishops.  This may eventually happen  among the entire Orthodox Christians of Kerala, if some continue to encroach their neighbors for material gains.
         
        You critisize us for so called aristocratic rich persons in our Church who creates problems.  Whatever you tries to say, the Malankarites knows very well in which group this so called aristocratic group belongs and their role in manipulating everything, for their perosnal gains.  You come here to Kottayam and verify whether anyone in our Church had occupied any of the Church properties.  Now check if there are anyone in your Church with that culture.  Come to Kottayam and ask your leadership.
         
        Now one more thing, you criticize us saying that we are appreciating only the foreign (what is foreign?) fathers.  Every one here knows the fact that, we have many other Holy Fathers in India, like  Pulikottil Thirumeni, Parumala Thirumeni, Kadavil Thirumeni, Ambattu Thirumeni, Paulose Mor Koorilose Thirumeni , Athansius Valiya Thirumeni , late Catholica Baselious Paulose II Bawa, late Koorilose Thirumeni and many others.  You just come over here to India and enquire how we consider them. For persons like you, we are only after the foreigners, that's the mistake you always try to conclude.  Who really are the foreigners ? You or me?
        Now whatever you tries to argue, the fact is that that atleast some of the Syrian fathers have suffered much, which is accepted by the forefathers of all the people of the two Orthodox Churches in India.  If you have any doubt read once again the extract from the biography published by Manorama.   In a book by a priest published from your Kottayam Seminary a few years back, he criticized Pulikottil Thirumeni for his support of Antiochean fathers, but at the same time he is avoiding criticizing Parumala Thirumeni who was Pulikottil Thirumeni's closest aide and Patriarch's secretary and closest companion, and a strong supporter of all the decisions taken by the Patriarch.  So why you criticize Pulikottil Thirumeni only ? you and every one knows the reason.  Do you know Parumala Thirumeni had appeared in the local court continuously for 14 days.  What he has declared there is a historical record which is available in court records. It is certainly not the faith of the present Independent groups.
         
        Anyhow let us all stop these arguments, which in no way, either of us will win, but only increase the enmity.  If you want to continue with your silly arguments, please respond it in your forums, there are many persons to listen and appreciate you.  Please, avoid us.  We are poor Syrian Christians of Kerala.  In this way we can be good neighbors.
         
        END.

         




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      • Fr. John Kunjukunju
        Dear Reji, I fully agree with many of your observations and yet there is a little difference. I would share my experience. Truly, I came into the priesthood
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 15, 2002
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          Dear Reji,
          I fully agree with many of your observations and yet there is a little difference.
          I would share my experience. Truly, I came�into the priesthood through gospel speech. More clearly, my then vicar use to offer me chance to speak once in a while. People then used to appreciate by fabulous words. But when I�became a priest people's attitude changed. I used to�confuse if I had changed. The fact is people do not like to hear gospel. The first and only complaint about me is that my speeches are long. People do not have patience to hear much The first instruction I received from the honorable faithful - rather administrators - is that gospel should not exceed 10 minutes. Even that 10 minutes speech should be only certain statements like "Neethisaram." Service should be cut short, etc. Nowadays people are more educated and affluent than priests in most cases and they think the priest has no right to�advise/correct them and gospel in its true spirit invariably involves certain amount of advise and correction�and call spade a spade.�The priests are mere paid servants and ironically in our church and in this diocese (USA) especially�no priest is paid a salary. Maximum is a hundred dollar per service in most cases. In other words, they are merely "Kurbanathozhilalikal." I doubt how this generation shall escape the wrath of God and if you say so you will be evicted out. In this pathetic situation blaming priests alone will not be fair. Honestly, I am the one regretting having taken up this robe and cannot do anything. Love, Johnachan.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: daniel_reji
          Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 4:49 AM
          To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: RCC communion
          Dear brother Thomas P

          If laymen do not follow the guidelines of the Synod or the
          instructions of the church, we can't blame
        • Thomas V.M
          Dear freind, This is not theology.This is just psycology.What I see is a sort of mixed hatred.Like ,your loved thing in with someone.You are burning with that
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 18, 2002
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            Dear freind,
            This is not theology.This is just psycology.What I see
            is a sort of mixed hatred.Like ,your loved thing in
            with someone.You are burning with that feeling.Inside
            you the genetic jacobite feeling is there.But now you
            have taken up the new indian orthodox identity.
            Which you yourself feel is not the real one.Step
            Father cannot be the real father.
            So ddonot fight this false fight you get hurt.
            What we were taught by our fathers are to be believed
            and accepted.There is nothing better outside.We are
            thomas,mathais,kuriakose etc from the day xtians are
            in Kerala.I donot want bto change names.
            Regards

            --- thomas_pa1 <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:
            > Dear Achen, Forgive me. Don't give me any special
            > respect because
            > my parent if from Malankara Jacobite side. Treat me
            > just like
            > you want to treat a Malankara Orthodox Christian or
            > the way you
            > want to treat an Indian Christian.
            ________________________________________________
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          • thomas_pa1
            But now you ... Names like Oommen, Chacko, etc. are pure Indian names. We started using English first names only after CMS missionaries in India. Before this
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 21, 2002
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              But now you
              > have taken up the new indian orthodox identity.
              > Which you yourself feel is not the real one.Step
              > Father cannot be the real father.
              > So ddonot fight this false fight you get hurt.
              > What we were taught by our fathers are to be believed
              > and accepted.There is nothing better outside.We are
              > thomas,mathais,kuriakose etc from the day xtians are
              > in Kerala.I donot want bto change names.
              > Regards

              Names like Oommen, Chacko, etc. are pure Indian names.
              We started using English first names only after
              CMS missionaries in India. Before this we used names
              like Chandy, Itty, Kochummen, chacko etc. You will not
              find such names in any other part of the world. Regarding
              ancestry, it is well written in my family history (the Pakalomattom
              one) that our ancestor was an Indian Brahmin. So there
              is no confusion here.

              But, in Orthodox confession, ethnicity is not important.
              This means equal importance to all ethnicities without
              reecting one's own God given identity. Our Indian identity
              is God given and hence blessed. We remember Coptic fathers
              like St. Cyril, St. Diascoros, not because of their Coptic
              ethincity, but because of their faith.

              There is no mixed emotions or confusion here. My confusion
              is about the way chevaliers's behaved to me in Kerala.
              As a young man, I am too worried about these chevaliers'
              splitting Malankara church for personal gains and destroying
              their real identiy. Knanaya is now going away based on their
              Syrian identity.

              Pray and work for unity based on Orthodox confession. One Malankara
              Synod is better than numerous divisions. I want all relatives to be
              under one Holy Synod. This will bring lots of peace in family
              life.

              Thomas
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