Re: British Library Syriac MSS
- You continue to tell that I am against Syrian Orthodox.
Do you know that I attend both sides for liturgy. Do you
know that I invited Malankara Jacobite priest who concelebrate
for fucntions in my family. Do you give the same respect to
Malankara Orthodox church? If not, how can you say with
confidence that I am aganist Syrian Orthodox?
You may discourage me attending a Malankara Jacobite church.
But I will continue to do this until a final separation.
Syrian Orthodox in my mind is different from the church
portrayed by proud Malankara Jacobites, especially "chevaliers"
and the aristocratic rich who stand for division.
I know their position very well, because I was in their midst
for many years attending only Malankara JAcobite church
for about 6 continous years.
Yes, to some extent I am against the modern Syrian Orthodox.
But there is the Syrian Orthodox that is dying today:
with large number of abandoned monasteries and churches in
Turkey region. When I see large number of Syrian orthodox
going to Anglican and RCC for communion, it is indeed a
sad thing to me. A Malankara Jacobite told me:" I will
contunie to commune from Anglican, but not from Orthodox".
No explanation from my side can help you people understand me.
I have good mnumber of books about the real old Syrian Orthodox.
I do respect the old Syrian church which was pure in faith.
I remain a lover of the old Syrian Orthodox Church, which
I see is significantly different from the Syrian Church
after Patriarch Yakub 111. I hope you will understand me.
I wish to see a growing Syrian Orthodox in the middle east,
in the land were old fathers of Anthiocian church are resting.
Can you tell me how manuscripts ended up in British and Vatican
--- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Fr. John Kunjukunju" <fatherjohnkk@h...>
> My full support to what John Philip wrote. I had on many occasionswrote these matters to Mr Thomas P. No amount of explanation will
satisfy him. After closely analyzing his various thoughts in various
forums, what I derived of him is that his thoughts are disoriented and
too unrelenting to others' views. It is a sort of fanatism. We can
only pray for him., Love, Johnachan.
- Dear Achen, Forgive me. Don't give me any special respect because
my parent if from Malankara Jacobite side. Treat me just like
you want to treat a Malankara Orthodox Christian or the way you
want to treat an Indian Christian.
St. Severios was not the only Greek father to occupy the throne
of Anthioc. There were many others. I have no evidence for their
works in Syriac. I do know that many of the works of St. Severios
was later translated to Syriac. The Christians of Anatolia,
and Northern Iraq regions used Syriac from ancient times.
But in Anthioc, Greek was the predominant language.
St. Severios was from a Monastery in Gaza region, were he lived
with Egyptian monks. He was a man of great fasting and prayer.
His hymn "B'slus emo deelethok..." (Nin maathavu Vishudhanmar...)
was originally written by him in Greek ("O Monogenis ...").
This hymn is also used by Greek churches.
Even today, the major part of Anthiocian church is Greek apeaking.
I have read the works of H.G. Mathews Mar Severios, especially
his research in the area of theology of St. Philoxenos of Mabbug.
There is no Petrine supremacy arguments in the works of St. Philoxenos
of Mabbug. Being a follower of St. Severios, Mar Aksnaya (St.
Philoxenos) wrote about the Christology of St. Cyril of Alexandria.
Beyond this, there is no teaching about the modern line of thinking
in the Malankara Jacobite church you find there.
H.G. Mathews Mar Severios also lists all the works of St. Philoxenos
I myself learned Syriac. I consider it a great ecclesiastical
language (like Coptic, Greek, Latin etc.). If church fathers
living in Syria developed all the wonderful work before 6th century,
we need to follow their footsteps and develop more and more
works in Indian languages about faith. This will help the growth
of Orthodox faith in India. This will happen only if we train
younger genration in this direction beyond too much pride about
Syriac language. Instead of allowing our church in India to die,
we must allow it to grow.
The Syrian pride I mentioned in my mails is the pride of
some "chevaliers" and aristocratic families about Syrian identity:
the feeling of superiority they get by imagining Syrian identity.
You know what I mean. So, please do not criticise me beyond what
I really mean.
--- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Fr. John Kunjukunju" <fatherjohnkk@h...>
> Dear Reji,with paternal regards gave him a reply. It was like this: While it is
> One day before, this very question was asked to me in an email and I
true that St Saverious wrote his major works in Greek, he had also
written in Syriac. He was equally a scholar in Syriac too. The reason
is not what you think. He wrote in Greek so that he wanted his message
of church theology to be passed on to the intelligentsia. Why do we
write in English while we are Malayalees? Because we need to pass on
the message to those who do not Malayalam.
> Syriac is not the mother language of the present Syrians but it isthe vernacular of our Lord. The present Indian Orthodox bishop Mathai
Mor Saverious is already in the process of reviving Syriac and he
already published Gospel according to Mathew in Syriac, etc. The reply
was about half a page. This is for your information.
> I really appreciate your reply which is very apt. love, Johnachan.
- Dear brothers, Please listen to me. Last week I talked to
a Malankara Jacobite relative of mine. He told me that it is
fine to commune in Anglican church ( I know that in Kerala this
person does not commune from Mar Thoma church). He also mentioned
that he can commune from RCC. Another close relative and an altar
servant of Malankara Jacobite church communes from Anglican church.
He was an youth leader in the Church and a person with strong
adherence to Mar Divannasios. So, where is faith in all these.
The faith my grand-mother taught me is significantly different
from what I see today. I know that both Malankara Jacobite and
Malnakara Orthodox side will ignore me.
So, to answer Daniel, it is true that His Holiness Patriarch's
agreement means only communion in certain situations. But, knowing
our people, I can predict for sure that eventually younger generation
(especially those living outside Kerala) will go to RCC because
of shorter service. Also there is no singing and other participation
of laity in RCC liturgy.
Hope I made my concerns clear. I have the same concerns about
Malankara Orthodocx church entering in to such agreements with RCC.
We also need to keep in mind that RCC accepts any kind of thing:
even cultic worship. Also according to Cardinal Ratzinger of
congregation of faith, a church entering to any kind of communion
agreement with RCC would mean (from RCC perspective) that, the
church is a part of RCC accpting the supremacy of Pope. This is
written clearly in "Dominus Iesus" statement, official statement
of faith from Vatican.
- Dear brother Thomas P
If laymen do not follow the guidelines of the Synod or the
instructions of the church, we can't blame the Church or its leaders
for that. As we are the part of the Church, it is our duty and we
have to follow them.
Now comes back to Malankara, as long as the Christianity exist in
Malankara, the laymen will attend the Liturgies of other factions.
This is not because of the understanding of the theology but it is
because of our relations. Especially in the Travancore area each
family have the relatives from all the Christian sects. They can't
run away or stay away from the other liturgy services. As long as
Syrian Orthodox Church has an understanding with RC on Holy Qurbono
the belivers can receive the Holy Communion with out any second
thoughts. This applied to both factions of the Malankara
(Catholicose / Patriarch), because the Church in Malankara is the
integral part of the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church (By the
Malankara Constitution and the verdict of Honorable Supreme Court of
India and teaching of the late laminated fathers.)
Above all Orthodoxy is not a religion it is a way of life, which
taught us by the Almighty and his Apostle.
In my personal opinion if a layman accept the Holy Bread and Holy
Wine with the stern believe that what he receiving is the Body &
Blood of the Almighty he will be benefited from it regardless it is
given by whom (within apostolic church)?
If a Malankara Syrian Christian receives the Holy Communion from
Patriarch or Catholicose with out the true believe, that will be only
a "Godampappm and Munthiri Charu".
How many of us respect the Holy Bread and Wine? How many of us
participated the Holy Qurbono from the beginning of the Liturgy? How
many of us know what happening their? How many of us know what
happening during the "Anpudayooney .." singing? I notice many people
take this short period for a rest. One more thing which I noticed
(includes me) we stand with a lazy mood with typical "Kiyee Ketty
Nilpu" even on "Ezhinnallipu".
For all these things I cant blame my church. We should blame our
parents and godparents for it. And partially the Priesthood also has
to be blamed. Nowadays majority of them are not interested the Gospel
works instead of they are interested so called "Jeeva Karunya
Pravarthanagal", were they can get public image, name and so on .
So let us rectify our self before blaming our Church & Holy Synod.
Because we are Church. Without us no Church.
--- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "thomas_pa1" <thomas_pa1@y...> wrote:
> So, to answer Daniel, it is true that His Holiness Patriarch's
> agreement means only communion in certain situations. But, knowing
> our people, I can predict for sure that eventually younger
> (especially those living outside Kerala) will go to RCC because
> of shorter service. Also there is no singing and other participation
> of laity in RCC liturgy.
- Thomas_ Pal brother,In your last response to me, you severely criticized all our SyrianFathers. Here again you are criticizing only our bishops. Why you are not looking into your own community instead of digging into others. Do you think everyone in your church are ok. Can you deny the fact that even your church have reservations about many of your highest dignitaries. In this era of switching loyalties for material gains, do you know there is a Very Important person in your Church who has stopped going to the Church itself. Do you really wants to know why ?, Please come here at Kottayam and contact your top Church dignitary and enquire who is it & why ? Remember he has not switched sides, but stopped going to Churches and avoids all the Priests and Bishops. This may eventually happen among the entire Orthodox Christians of Kerala, if some continue to encroach their neighbors for material gains.You critisize us for so called aristocratic rich persons in our Church who creates problems. Whatever you tries to say, the Malankarites knows very well in which group this so called aristocratic group belongs and their role in manipulating everything, for their perosnal gains. You come here to Kottayam and verify whether anyone in our Church had occupied any of the Church properties. Now check if there are anyone in your Church with that culture. Come to Kottayam and ask your leadership.Now one more thing, you criticize us saying that we are appreciating only the foreign (what is foreign?) fathers. Every one here knows the fact that, we have many other Holy Fathers in India, like Pulikottil Thirumeni, Parumala Thirumeni, Kadavil Thirumeni, Ambattu Thirumeni, Paulose Mor Koorilose Thirumeni , Athansius Valiya Thirumeni , late Catholica Baselious Paulose II Bawa, late Koorilose Thirumeni and many others. You just come over here to India and enquire how we consider them. For persons like you, we are only after the foreigners, that's the mistake you always try to conclude. Who really are the foreigners ? You or me?Now whatever you tries to argue, the fact is that that atleast some of the Syrian fathers have suffered much, which is accepted by the forefathers of all the people of the two Orthodox Churches in India. If you have any doubt read once again the extract from the biography published by Manorama. In a book by a priest published from your Kottayam Seminary a few years back, he criticized Pulikottil Thirumeni for his support of Antiochean fathers, but at the same time he is avoiding criticizing Parumala Thirumeni who was Pulikottil Thirumeni's closest aide and Patriarch's secretary and closest companion, and a strong supporter of all the decisions taken by the Patriarch. So why you criticize Pulikottil Thirumeni only ? you and every one knows the reason. Do you know Parumala Thirumeni had appeared in the local court continuously for 14 days. What he has declared there is a historical record which is available in court records. It is certainly not the faith of the present Independent groups.Anyhow let us all stop these arguments, which in no way, either of us will win, but only increase the enmity. If you want to continue with your silly arguments, please respond it in your forums, there are many persons to listen and appreciate you. Please, avoid us. We are poor Syrian Christians of Kerala. In this way we can be good neighbors.END.
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- Dear Reji,I fully agree with many of your observations and yet there is a little difference.I would share my experience. Truly, I came�into the priesthood through gospel speech. More clearly, my then vicar use to offer me chance to speak once in a while. People then used to appreciate by fabulous words. But when I�became a priest people's attitude changed. I used to�confuse if I had changed. The fact is people do not like to hear gospel. The first and only complaint about me is that my speeches are long. People do not have patience to hear much The first instruction I received from the honorable faithful - rather administrators - is that gospel should not exceed 10 minutes. Even that 10 minutes speech should be only certain statements like "Neethisaram." Service should be cut short, etc. Nowadays people are more educated and affluent than priests in most cases and they think the priest has no right to�advise/correct them and gospel in its true spirit invariably involves certain amount of advise and correction�and call spade a spade.�The priests are mere paid servants and ironically in our church and in this diocese (USA) especially�no priest is paid a salary. Maximum is a hundred dollar per service in most cases. In other words, they are merely "Kurbanathozhilalikal." I doubt how this generation shall escape the wrath of God and if you say so you will be evicted out. In this pathetic situation blaming priests alone will not be fair. Honestly, I am the one regretting having taken up this robe and cannot do anything. Love, Johnachan.�----- Original Message -----From: daniel_rejiSent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 4:49 AMTo: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.comSubject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: RCC communion�Dear brother Thomas P
If laymen do not follow the guidelines of the Synod or the
instructions of the church, we can't blame
- Dear freind,
This is not theology.This is just psycology.What I see
is a sort of mixed hatred.Like ,your loved thing in
with someone.You are burning with that feeling.Inside
you the genetic jacobite feeling is there.But now you
have taken up the new indian orthodox identity.
Which you yourself feel is not the real one.Step
Father cannot be the real father.
So ddonot fight this false fight you get hurt.
What we were taught by our fathers are to be believed
and accepted.There is nothing better outside.We are
thomas,mathais,kuriakose etc from the day xtians are
in Kerala.I donot want bto change names.
--- thomas_pa1 <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:
> Dear Achen, Forgive me. Don't give me any special________________________________________________
> respect because
> my parent if from Malankara Jacobite side. Treat me
> just like
> you want to treat a Malankara Orthodox Christian or
> the way you
> want to treat an Indian Christian.
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- But now you
> have taken up the new indian orthodox identity.Names like Oommen, Chacko, etc. are pure Indian names.
> Which you yourself feel is not the real one.Step
> Father cannot be the real father.
> So ddonot fight this false fight you get hurt.
> What we were taught by our fathers are to be believed
> and accepted.There is nothing better outside.We are
> thomas,mathais,kuriakose etc from the day xtians are
> in Kerala.I donot want bto change names.
We started using English first names only after
CMS missionaries in India. Before this we used names
like Chandy, Itty, Kochummen, chacko etc. You will not
find such names in any other part of the world. Regarding
ancestry, it is well written in my family history (the Pakalomattom
one) that our ancestor was an Indian Brahmin. So there
is no confusion here.
But, in Orthodox confession, ethnicity is not important.
This means equal importance to all ethnicities without
reecting one's own God given identity. Our Indian identity
is God given and hence blessed. We remember Coptic fathers
like St. Cyril, St. Diascoros, not because of their Coptic
ethincity, but because of their faith.
There is no mixed emotions or confusion here. My confusion
is about the way chevaliers's behaved to me in Kerala.
As a young man, I am too worried about these chevaliers'
splitting Malankara church for personal gains and destroying
their real identiy. Knanaya is now going away based on their
Pray and work for unity based on Orthodox confession. One Malankara
Synod is better than numerous divisions. I want all relatives to be
under one Holy Synod. This will bring lots of peace in family