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Re: British Library Syriac MSS

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  • thomas_pa1
    You continue to tell that I am against Syrian Orthodox. Do you know that I attend both sides for liturgy. Do you know that I invited Malankara Jacobite priest
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 14, 2002
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      You continue to tell that I am against Syrian Orthodox.
      Do you know that I attend both sides for liturgy. Do you
      know that I invited Malankara Jacobite priest who concelebrate
      for fucntions in my family. Do you give the same respect to
      Malankara Orthodox church? If not, how can you say with
      confidence that I am aganist Syrian Orthodox?

      You may discourage me attending a Malankara Jacobite church.
      But I will continue to do this until a final separation.

      Syrian Orthodox in my mind is different from the church
      portrayed by proud Malankara Jacobites, especially "chevaliers"
      and the aristocratic rich who stand for division.
      I know their position very well, because I was in their midst
      for many years attending only Malankara JAcobite church
      for about 6 continous years.

      Yes, to some extent I am against the modern Syrian Orthodox.
      But there is the Syrian Orthodox that is dying today:
      with large number of abandoned monasteries and churches in
      Turkey region. When I see large number of Syrian orthodox
      going to Anglican and RCC for communion, it is indeed a
      sad thing to me. A Malankara Jacobite told me:" I will
      contunie to commune from Anglican, but not from Orthodox".

      No explanation from my side can help you people understand me.
      I have good mnumber of books about the real old Syrian Orthodox.
      I do respect the old Syrian church which was pure in faith.
      I remain a lover of the old Syrian Orthodox Church, which
      I see is significantly different from the Syrian Church
      after Patriarch Yakub 111. I hope you will understand me.
      I wish to see a growing Syrian Orthodox in the middle east,
      in the land were old fathers of Anthiocian church are resting.

      Can you tell me how manuscripts ended up in British and Vatican
      libraries?

      -Thomas

      --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Fr. John Kunjukunju" <fatherjohnkk@h...>
      wrote:
      > My full support to what John Philip wrote. I had on many occasions
      wrote these matters to Mr Thomas P. No amount of explanation will
      satisfy him. After closely analyzing his various thoughts in various
      forums, what I derived of him is that his thoughts are disoriented and
      too unrelenting to others' views. It is a sort of fanatism. We can
      only pray for him., Love, Johnachan.
      >
    • thomas_pa1
      Dear Achen, Forgive me. Don t give me any special respect because my parent if from Malankara Jacobite side. Treat me just like you want to treat a Malankara
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 14, 2002
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        Dear Achen, Forgive me. Don't give me any special respect because
        my parent if from Malankara Jacobite side. Treat me just like
        you want to treat a Malankara Orthodox Christian or the way you
        want to treat an Indian Christian.

        St. Severios was not the only Greek father to occupy the throne
        of Anthioc. There were many others. I have no evidence for their
        works in Syriac. I do know that many of the works of St. Severios
        was later translated to Syriac. The Christians of Anatolia,
        and Northern Iraq regions used Syriac from ancient times.
        But in Anthioc, Greek was the predominant language.
        St. Severios was from a Monastery in Gaza region, were he lived
        with Egyptian monks. He was a man of great fasting and prayer.
        His hymn "B'slus emo deelethok..." (Nin maathavu Vishudhanmar...)
        was originally written by him in Greek ("O Monogenis ...").
        This hymn is also used by Greek churches.

        Even today, the major part of Anthiocian church is Greek apeaking.

        I have read the works of H.G. Mathews Mar Severios, especially
        his research in the area of theology of St. Philoxenos of Mabbug.
        There is no Petrine supremacy arguments in the works of St. Philoxenos
        of Mabbug. Being a follower of St. Severios, Mar Aksnaya (St.
        Philoxenos) wrote about the Christology of St. Cyril of Alexandria.
        Beyond this, there is no teaching about the modern line of thinking
        in the Malankara Jacobite church you find there.
        H.G. Mathews Mar Severios also lists all the works of St. Philoxenos
        of Mabbug.

        I myself learned Syriac. I consider it a great ecclesiastical
        language (like Coptic, Greek, Latin etc.). If church fathers
        living in Syria developed all the wonderful work before 6th century,
        we need to follow their footsteps and develop more and more
        works in Indian languages about faith. This will help the growth
        of Orthodox faith in India. This will happen only if we train
        younger genration in this direction beyond too much pride about
        Syriac language. Instead of allowing our church in India to die,
        we must allow it to grow.

        The Syrian pride I mentioned in my mails is the pride of
        some "chevaliers" and aristocratic families about Syrian identity:
        the feeling of superiority they get by imagining Syrian identity.
        You know what I mean. So, please do not criticise me beyond what
        I really mean.

        Sincerely,
        Thomas



        --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Fr. John Kunjukunju" <fatherjohnkk@h...>
        wrote:
        > Dear Reji,
        > One day before, this very question was asked to me in an email and I
        with paternal regards gave him a reply. It was like this: While it is
        true that St Saverious wrote his major works in Greek, he had also
        written in Syriac. He was equally a scholar in Syriac too. The reason
        is not what you think. He wrote in Greek so that he wanted his message
        of church theology to be passed on to the intelligentsia. Why do we
        write in English while we are Malayalees? Because we need to pass on
        the message to those who do not Malayalam.
        > Syriac is not the mother language of the present Syrians but it is
        the vernacular of our Lord. The present Indian Orthodox bishop Mathai
        Mor Saverious is already in the process of reviving Syriac and he
        already published Gospel according to Mathew in Syriac, etc. The reply
        was about half a page. This is for your information.
        > I really appreciate your reply which is very apt. love, Johnachan.
      • thomas_pa1
        Dear brothers, Please listen to me. Last week I talked to a Malankara Jacobite relative of mine. He told me that it is fine to commune in Anglican church ( I
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 14, 2002
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          Dear brothers, Please listen to me. Last week I talked to
          a Malankara Jacobite relative of mine. He told me that it is
          fine to commune in Anglican church ( I know that in Kerala this
          person does not commune from Mar Thoma church). He also mentioned
          that he can commune from RCC. Another close relative and an altar
          servant of Malankara Jacobite church communes from Anglican church.
          He was an youth leader in the Church and a person with strong
          adherence to Mar Divannasios. So, where is faith in all these.
          The faith my grand-mother taught me is significantly different
          from what I see today. I know that both Malankara Jacobite and
          Malnakara Orthodox side will ignore me.

          So, to answer Daniel, it is true that His Holiness Patriarch's
          agreement means only communion in certain situations. But, knowing
          our people, I can predict for sure that eventually younger generation
          (especially those living outside Kerala) will go to RCC because
          of shorter service. Also there is no singing and other participation
          of laity in RCC liturgy.

          Hope I made my concerns clear. I have the same concerns about
          Malankara Orthodocx church entering in to such agreements with RCC.
          We also need to keep in mind that RCC accepts any kind of thing:
          even cultic worship. Also according to Cardinal Ratzinger of
          congregation of faith, a church entering to any kind of communion
          agreement with RCC would mean (from RCC perspective) that, the
          church is a part of RCC accpting the supremacy of Pope. This is
          written clearly in "Dominus Iesus" statement, official statement
          of faith from Vatican.

          -Thomas
        • daniel_reji
          Dear brother Thomas P If laymen do not follow the guidelines of the Synod or the instructions of the church, we can t blame the Church or its leaders for that.
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 15, 2002
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            Dear brother Thomas P

            If laymen do not follow the guidelines of the Synod or the
            instructions of the church, we can't blame the Church or its leaders
            for that. As we are the part of the Church, it is our duty and we
            have to follow them.

            Now comes back to Malankara, as long as the Christianity exist in
            Malankara, the laymen will attend the Liturgies of other factions.
            This is not because of the understanding of the theology but it is
            because of our relations. Especially in the Travancore area each
            family have the relatives from all the Christian sects. They can't
            run away or stay away from the other liturgy services. As long as
            Syrian Orthodox Church has an understanding with RC on Holy Qurbono
            the belivers can receive the Holy Communion with out any second
            thoughts. This applied to both factions of the Malankara
            (Catholicose / Patriarch), because the Church in Malankara is the
            integral part of the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church (By the
            Malankara Constitution and the verdict of Honorable Supreme Court of
            India and teaching of the late laminated fathers.)

            Above all Orthodoxy is not a religion it is a way of life, which
            taught us by the Almighty and his Apostle.

            In my personal opinion if a layman accept the Holy Bread and Holy
            Wine with the stern believe that what he receiving is the Body &
            Blood of the Almighty he will be benefited from it regardless it is
            given by whom (within apostolic church)?

            If a Malankara Syrian Christian receives the Holy Communion from
            Patriarch or Catholicose with out the true believe, that will be only
            a "Godampappm and Munthiri Charu".

            How many of us respect the Holy Bread and Wine? How many of us
            participated the Holy Qurbono from the beginning of the Liturgy? How
            many of us know what happening their? How many of us know what
            happening during the "Anpudayooney….." singing? I notice many people
            take this short period for a rest. One more thing which I noticed
            (includes me) we stand with a lazy mood with typical "Kiyee Ketty
            Nilpu" even on "Ezhinnallipu".

            For all these things I cant blame my church. We should blame our
            parents and godparents for it. And partially the Priesthood also has
            to be blamed. Nowadays majority of them are not interested the Gospel
            works instead of they are interested so called "Jeeva Karunya
            Pravarthanagal", were they can get public image, name and so on….

            So let us rectify our self before blaming our Church & Holy Synod.
            Because we are Church. Without us no Church.

            Thomas Daniel


            --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "thomas_pa1" <thomas_pa1@y...> wrote:

            > So, to answer Daniel, it is true that His Holiness Patriarch's
            > agreement means only communion in certain situations. But, knowing
            > our people, I can predict for sure that eventually younger
            generation
            > (especially those living outside Kerala) will go to RCC because
            > of shorter service. Also there is no singing and other participation
            > of laity in RCC liturgy.

            > -Thomas
          • John Philip
            Thomas_ Pal brother, In your last response to me, you severely criticized all our SyrianFathers. Here again you are criticizing only our bishops. Why you
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 15, 2002
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              Thomas_ Pal  brother,
               
               In your last response to me, you severely criticized all our SyrianFathers.  Here again you are criticizing only our bishops. Why you are not looking into your own community instead of digging into others.  Do you think everyone in your church are ok.  Can you deny the fact that even your church have reservations about many of your highest dignitaries.  In this era of switching loyalties for material gains, do you know there is a Very Important person in your Church who has stopped going to the Church itself.  Do you really wants to know why ?, Please come here at Kottayam and contact your top Church dignitary and enquire who is it & why ?  Remember he has not switched sides, but stopped going to Churches and avoids all the Priests and Bishops.  This may eventually happen  among the entire Orthodox Christians of Kerala, if some continue to encroach their neighbors for material gains.
               
              You critisize us for so called aristocratic rich persons in our Church who creates problems.  Whatever you tries to say, the Malankarites knows very well in which group this so called aristocratic group belongs and their role in manipulating everything, for their perosnal gains.  You come here to Kottayam and verify whether anyone in our Church had occupied any of the Church properties.  Now check if there are anyone in your Church with that culture.  Come to Kottayam and ask your leadership.
               
              Now one more thing, you criticize us saying that we are appreciating only the foreign (what is foreign?) fathers.  Every one here knows the fact that, we have many other Holy Fathers in India, like  Pulikottil Thirumeni, Parumala Thirumeni, Kadavil Thirumeni, Ambattu Thirumeni, Paulose Mor Koorilose Thirumeni , Athansius Valiya Thirumeni , late Catholica Baselious Paulose II Bawa, late Koorilose Thirumeni and many others.  You just come over here to India and enquire how we consider them. For persons like you, we are only after the foreigners, that's the mistake you always try to conclude.  Who really are the foreigners ? You or me?
              Now whatever you tries to argue, the fact is that that atleast some of the Syrian fathers have suffered much, which is accepted by the forefathers of all the people of the two Orthodox Churches in India.  If you have any doubt read once again the extract from the biography published by Manorama.   In a book by a priest published from your Kottayam Seminary a few years back, he criticized Pulikottil Thirumeni for his support of Antiochean fathers, but at the same time he is avoiding criticizing Parumala Thirumeni who was Pulikottil Thirumeni's closest aide and Patriarch's secretary and closest companion, and a strong supporter of all the decisions taken by the Patriarch.  So why you criticize Pulikottil Thirumeni only ? you and every one knows the reason.  Do you know Parumala Thirumeni had appeared in the local court continuously for 14 days.  What he has declared there is a historical record which is available in court records. It is certainly not the faith of the present Independent groups.
               
              Anyhow let us all stop these arguments, which in no way, either of us will win, but only increase the enmity.  If you want to continue with your silly arguments, please respond it in your forums, there are many persons to listen and appreciate you.  Please, avoid us.  We are poor Syrian Christians of Kerala.  In this way we can be good neighbors.
               
              END.

               




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            • Fr. John Kunjukunju
              Dear Reji, I fully agree with many of your observations and yet there is a little difference. I would share my experience. Truly, I came into the priesthood
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 15, 2002
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                Dear Reji,
                I fully agree with many of your observations and yet there is a little difference.
                I would share my experience. Truly, I came�into the priesthood through gospel speech. More clearly, my then vicar use to offer me chance to speak once in a while. People then used to appreciate by fabulous words. But when I�became a priest people's attitude changed. I used to�confuse if I had changed. The fact is people do not like to hear gospel. The first and only complaint about me is that my speeches are long. People do not have patience to hear much The first instruction I received from the honorable faithful - rather administrators - is that gospel should not exceed 10 minutes. Even that 10 minutes speech should be only certain statements like "Neethisaram." Service should be cut short, etc. Nowadays people are more educated and affluent than priests in most cases and they think the priest has no right to�advise/correct them and gospel in its true spirit invariably involves certain amount of advise and correction�and call spade a spade.�The priests are mere paid servants and ironically in our church and in this diocese (USA) especially�no priest is paid a salary. Maximum is a hundred dollar per service in most cases. In other words, they are merely "Kurbanathozhilalikal." I doubt how this generation shall escape the wrath of God and if you say so you will be evicted out. In this pathetic situation blaming priests alone will not be fair. Honestly, I am the one regretting having taken up this robe and cannot do anything. Love, Johnachan.
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: daniel_reji
                Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 4:49 AM
                To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: RCC communion
                Dear brother Thomas P

                If laymen do not follow the guidelines of the Synod or the
                instructions of the church, we can't blame
              • Thomas V.M
                Dear freind, This is not theology.This is just psycology.What I see is a sort of mixed hatred.Like ,your loved thing in with someone.You are burning with that
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 18, 2002
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                  Dear freind,
                  This is not theology.This is just psycology.What I see
                  is a sort of mixed hatred.Like ,your loved thing in
                  with someone.You are burning with that feeling.Inside
                  you the genetic jacobite feeling is there.But now you
                  have taken up the new indian orthodox identity.
                  Which you yourself feel is not the real one.Step
                  Father cannot be the real father.
                  So ddonot fight this false fight you get hurt.
                  What we were taught by our fathers are to be believed
                  and accepted.There is nothing better outside.We are
                  thomas,mathais,kuriakose etc from the day xtians are
                  in Kerala.I donot want bto change names.
                  Regards

                  --- thomas_pa1 <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:
                  > Dear Achen, Forgive me. Don't give me any special
                  > respect because
                  > my parent if from Malankara Jacobite side. Treat me
                  > just like
                  > you want to treat a Malankara Orthodox Christian or
                  > the way you
                  > want to treat an Indian Christian.
                  ________________________________________________
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                • thomas_pa1
                  But now you ... Names like Oommen, Chacko, etc. are pure Indian names. We started using English first names only after CMS missionaries in India. Before this
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 21, 2002
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                    But now you
                    > have taken up the new indian orthodox identity.
                    > Which you yourself feel is not the real one.Step
                    > Father cannot be the real father.
                    > So ddonot fight this false fight you get hurt.
                    > What we were taught by our fathers are to be believed
                    > and accepted.There is nothing better outside.We are
                    > thomas,mathais,kuriakose etc from the day xtians are
                    > in Kerala.I donot want bto change names.
                    > Regards

                    Names like Oommen, Chacko, etc. are pure Indian names.
                    We started using English first names only after
                    CMS missionaries in India. Before this we used names
                    like Chandy, Itty, Kochummen, chacko etc. You will not
                    find such names in any other part of the world. Regarding
                    ancestry, it is well written in my family history (the Pakalomattom
                    one) that our ancestor was an Indian Brahmin. So there
                    is no confusion here.

                    But, in Orthodox confession, ethnicity is not important.
                    This means equal importance to all ethnicities without
                    reecting one's own God given identity. Our Indian identity
                    is God given and hence blessed. We remember Coptic fathers
                    like St. Cyril, St. Diascoros, not because of their Coptic
                    ethincity, but because of their faith.

                    There is no mixed emotions or confusion here. My confusion
                    is about the way chevaliers's behaved to me in Kerala.
                    As a young man, I am too worried about these chevaliers'
                    splitting Malankara church for personal gains and destroying
                    their real identiy. Knanaya is now going away based on their
                    Syrian identity.

                    Pray and work for unity based on Orthodox confession. One Malankara
                    Synod is better than numerous divisions. I want all relatives to be
                    under one Holy Synod. This will bring lots of peace in family
                    life.

                    Thomas
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