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British Library Syriac MSS

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  • Thomas Daniel
    Dear list, Thought you might be interested to know that the British Library collection of Syriac MSS now has a catalogue on the internet at:
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 8, 2002
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    • thomas_pa1
      St. Severios was a Greek speaking Patriarch and His Holiness wrote only in Greek. Yet, he was called crown of Syrians . Why? I think this is because at that
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 11, 2002
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        St. Severios was a Greek speaking Patriarch and His Holiness
        wrote only in Greek. Yet, he was called "crown of Syrians".
        Why? I think this is because at that time Syrian ethnicity or
        pride about Syriac and Syriac studies was not the priority for
        the Church of Anthioc. The priority was "Orthodox faith" of
        St. Severios. But today the priority is Syrian ethnicity,
        infallibility and Syriac studies with the support of RCC
        scholars and funds. Even SOR is under Catholic domain.
        Where is Christian Orthodox faith this?

        I am not discouraging you in your noble goals in Syriac studies,
        but should respect that there are other communities just like
        suffering Syrians in Turkey; their rights and ambitions etc.
        Pride will only destroy unity in Orthodox Church.

        Peace to you.
        -Thomas
      • John Philip
        Dear Thomas Pal, I can understand your continuous hate towards Syrian Orthodox Church and its faithful who are within the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 12, 2002
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          Dear Thomas Pal,
           
          I can understand your continuous hate towards Syrian Orthodox Church and its faithful who are within the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Antioch & all the East. 
           
          Its a known fact that you are dead against the Syrian Orthodox Church and its liturgical language. But inspite of all these, your Church based at Kottayam still uses the name 'Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church' and also the entire community of yours (as also other denominations) still consider to be proud of themselves being 'Syrian Christians'. 
           
           
          Now about the collaboration of Syrian Orthodox Church with RC as mentioned by you:- 
           
                   I  know you are well aware of the fact that, from the early centuries, the Churches including yours rejected equally the teachings of RC as well as Orthodoxy of Constantinople, which is even now followed through your Church's fundamental teachings. Still you criticizes only RC & the Syrian Orthodox Church for its increased contacts with RC in the recent years.
           
          Before blaming the Syrian Orthodox Christians, first check weather your Church have any understandings with Roman Catholic Church in Kerala.  Within a few months a television channel is to be inaugurated by RC and your church is one of the main collaborates in that venture (much more than us).  Also, many, much publicized dialogues between your Church and RC are continuing even now, the concerned report has been periodically published in Malayala Manorama with so much importance.  According to the articles published in that paper, your Church like ours, too have reached at some sort of understandings with RC.  Again your Catholicose participate in many of the meetings held by RC, including one held two years back, in which the RC Chief Bishop of India has categorically declared that St.Peter is the chief of the Apostles. When that news came in the newspapers, though some of your magazines have criticized and warned Bawa to abstain from such functions held by RC.  But even after the Catholicose goes to almost every meeting in which he has an invitation. May be he has no objections to these hatred (particularly towards Roman Catholic Church) in this ecumenical era, but only a few others.
           
          So let us be more careful before publishing such arguments in a forum like this. 

           

            thomas_pa1 <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:

          St. Severios was a Greek speaking Patriarch and His Holiness
          wrote only in Greek. Yet, he was called "crown of Syrians".
          Why? I think this is because at that time Syrian ethnicity or
          pride about Syriac and Syriac studies was not the priority for
          the Church of Anthioc. The priority was "Orthodox faith" of
          St. Severios. But today the priority is Syrian ethnicity,
          infallibility and Syriac studies with the support of RCC
          scholars and funds. Even SOR is under Catholic domain.
          Where is Christian Orthodox faith this?

          I am not discouraging you in your noble goals in Syriac studies,
          but should respect that there are other communities just like
          suffering Syrians in Turkey; their rights and ambitions etc.
          Pride will only destroy unity in Orthodox Church.

          Peace to you.
          -Thomas



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        • Thomas V.M
          Dear sir, I do not know about Antioch leadership is syric fanatics.Our Bava himself initiated movement of peace with Roman Catholic church etc,The Orthodox
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 12, 2002
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            Dear sir,
            I do not know about Antioch leadership is syric
            fanatics.Our Bava himself initiated movement of peace
            with Roman Catholic church etc,The Orthodox group is
            not interested in peace
            In Kerala,since there is a section who wants to wipe r
            syric christians from time to time.That makes them
            more and more vigilant.There number may dwidling in
            wordly ways ,but who is left is becoming more
            steadfast.Now all of believe the Almighty who kept us
            safe last 'n' years will take us through.
            Regards
            v.m.thomas
            --- thomas_pa1 <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:
            > St. Severios was a Greek speaking Patriarch and His
            > Holiness
            > wrote only in Greek. Yet, he was called "crown of
            > Syrians".
            > Why? I think this is because at that time Syrian
            > ethnicity or
            > pride about Syriac and Syriac studies was not the
            > priority for
            > the Church of Anthioc. The priority was "Orthodox
            > faith" of
            > St. Severios. But today the priority is Syrian
            > ethnicity,
            > infallibility and Syriac studies with the support of
            > RCC
            > scholars and funds. Even SOR is under Catholic
            > domain.
            > Where is Christian Orthodox faith this?
            >
            > I am not discouraging you in your noble goals in
            > Syriac studies,
            > but should respect that there are other communities
            > just like
            > suffering Syrians in Turkey; their rights and
            > ambitions etc.
            > Pride will only destroy unity in Orthodox Church.
            >
            > Peace to you.
            > -Thomas
            >
            >
            >


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          • Thomas Daniel
            Dear brother Thomas We already discussed this subject in many different forums. Always you accuse the Syrian Orthodox church (Under Catholic domain). Your
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 12, 2002
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              Dear brother Thomas

              We already discussed this subject in many different forums. Always you accuse the Syrian Orthodox church (Under Catholic domain). Your accusation is based on the two mutual agreement between RC and SOC. As I explained to you many time, please go through the text of the agreement thoroughly (It is available in our file section). Your doubt will be cleared. But you don�t want to understand it.

              The so-called Malankara Orthodox Independent Church also is in dialogue with RC. What you think they are talking in the meetings?

              Above to all, please try to read the so-called Independent Church's constitution article # 5, which says the Church accept the Paris cannon. You must know that Rev. Fr. Paul Badjman a RC priest printed and published this Canon in 1898, to establish the Superiority of the Roman Pop in the universal church.The Honorable Supreme Court of India rejected this canon. n the itroduction page of the Cannon Fr. Badjman him self stated that, � Self added many more and deleted many from the original Hudoyo Canon"

              So please tell me who is under the RC dominion officially. Please try to own house at order first before accusing others.

              In Our Lords Love

              Thomas Daniel



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            • John Philip
              In this particular era of hatred of some unscrupulous elements against the Syrian Orthodox Church and its Holy Fathers; it will be very interesting to read
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 13, 2002
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                In this particular era of hatred of some unscrupulous elements against the Syrian Orthodox Church and its Holy Fathers;  it will be very interesting to read the  'Biography of Mor Gregorious' (Parumala Thirumeni), published by Vargheese Mapillai, the then Chief of Malayala Manorama in 1903, a year after the demise of the Saint (in Malayalam).  It can be accessed through the link below.
                 
                The article is related to the Collection of Resessha ( an amount given to the supreme head of church the Patriarch, which is similar to 'Catholica Dina Pirivu' of the present times) by Saint Gregorious. 
                 
                                                      
                 
                 
                 
                (Source : htttp://www.parumalathirumeni.com)
                 
                Links from the pages:
                 
                 
                 




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              • Fr. John Kunjukunju
                Dear Reji, One day before, this very question was asked to me in an email and I with paternal regards gave him a reply. It was like this: While it is true that
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 13, 2002
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                  Dear Reji,
                  One day before, this very question was asked to me in an email and I with paternal regards gave him a reply. It was like this: While it is true that St Saverious wrote his major works in Greek, he had also written in Syriac. He was equally a scholar in Syriac too. The reason is not what you think. He wrote in Greek so that he wanted his message of church theology to be passed on to the intelligentsia. Why do we write in English while we are Malayalees? Because we need to pass on the message to those who do not Malayalam.
                  Syriac is not the mother language of the present Syrians but it is the vernacular of our Lord. The present Indian Orthodox bishop Mathai Mor Saverious is already in the process of reviving Syriac and he already published Gospel according to Mathew in Syriac, etc. The reply was about half a page. This is for your information.
                  I really appreciate your reply which is very apt. love, Johnachan.    
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Thomas Daniel
                  Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:00 AM
                  To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: British Library Syriac MSS
                   

                  Dear brother Thomas

                  We already discussed this subject in many different forums. Always you accuse the Syrian Orthodox church (Under Catholic domain). Your accusation is based on the two mutual agreement between RC and SOC. As I explained to you many time, please go through the text of the agreement thoroughly (It is available in our file section). Your doubt will be cleared. But you don’t want to understand it.

                  The so-called Malankara Orthodox Independent Church also is in dialogue with RC. What you think they are talking in the meetings?

                  Above to all, please try to read the so-called Independent Church's constitution article # 5, which says the Church accept the Paris cannon. You must know that Rev. Fr. Paul Badjman a RC priest printed and published this Canon in 1898, to establish the Superiority of the Roman Pop in the universal church.The Honorable Supreme Court of India rejected this canon. n the itroduction page of the Cannon Fr. Badjman him self stated that, “ Self added many more and deleted many from the original Hudoyo Canon"

                  So please tell me who is under the RC dominion officially. Please try to own house at order first before accusing others.

                  In Our Lords Love

                  Thomas Daniel



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                • Fr. John Kunjukunju
                  My full support to what John Philip wrote. I had on many occasions wrote these matters to Mr Thomas P. No amount of explanation will satisfy him. After closely
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 13, 2002
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                    My full support to what John Philip wrote. I had on many occasions wrote these matters to Mr Thomas P. No amount of explanation will satisfy him. After closely analyzing his various thoughts in various forums, what I derived of him is that his thoughts are disoriented and too unrelenting to others' views. It is a sort of fanatism. We can only pray for him., Love, Johnachan.  
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: John Philip
                    Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 12:38 AM
                    To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: British Library Syriac MSS
                     

                     

                    Dear Thomas Pal,
                     
                    I can understand your continuous hate towards Syrian Orthodox Church and its faithful who are within the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Antioch & all the East. 
                     
                    Its a known fact that you are dead against the Syrian Orthodox Church and its liturgical language. But inspite of all these, your Church based at Kottayam still uses the name 'Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church' and also the entire community of yours (as also other denominations) still consider to be proud of themselves being 'Syrian Christians'. 
                     
                     
                    Now about the collaboration of Syrian Orthodox Church with RC as mentioned by you:- 
                     
                             I  know you are well aware of the fact that, from the early centuries, the Churches including yours rejected equally the teachings of RC as well as Orthodoxy of Constantinople, which is even now followed through your Church's fundamental teachings. Still you criticizes only RC & the Syrian Orthodox Church for its increased contacts with RC in the recent years.
                     
                    Before blaming the Syrian Orthodox Christians, first check weather your Church have any understandings with Roman Catholic Church in Kerala.  Within a few months a television channel is to be inaugurated by RC and your church is one of the main collaborates in that venture (much more than us).  Also, many, much publicized dialogues between your Church and RC are continuing even now, the concerned report has been periodically published in Malayala Manorama with so much importance.  According to the articles published in that paper, your Church like ours, too have reached at some sort of understandings with RC.  Again your Catholicose participate in many of the meetings held by RC, including one held two years back, in which the RC Chief Bishop of India has categorically declared that St.Peter is the chief of the Apostles. When that news came in the newspapers, though some of your magazines have criticized and warned Bawa to abstain from such functions held by RC.  But even after the Catholicose goes to almost every meeting in which he has an invitation. May be he has no objections to these hatred (particularly towards Roman Catholic Church) in this ecumenical era, but only a few others.
                     
                    So let us be more careful before publishing such arguments in a forum like this. 

                     

                      thomas_pa1 <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:

                    St. Severios was a Greek speaking Patriarch and His Holiness
                    wrote only in Greek. Yet, he was called "crown of Syrians".
                    Why? I think this is because at that time Syrian ethnicity or
                    pride about Syriac and Syriac studies was not the priority for
                    the Church of Anthioc. The priority was "Orthodox faith" of
                    St. Severios. But today the priority is Syrian ethnicity,
                    infallibility and Syriac studies with the support of RCC
                    scholars and funds. Even SOR is under Catholic domain.
                    Where is Christian Orthodox faith this?

                    I am not discouraging you in your noble goals in Syriac studies,
                    but should respect that there are other communities just like
                    suffering Syrians in Turkey; their rights and ambitions etc.
                    Pride will only destroy unity in Orthodox Church.

                    Peace to you.
                    -Thomas



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                  • thomas_pa1
                    You continue to tell that I am against Syrian Orthodox. Do you know that I attend both sides for liturgy. Do you know that I invited Malankara Jacobite priest
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 14, 2002
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                      You continue to tell that I am against Syrian Orthodox.
                      Do you know that I attend both sides for liturgy. Do you
                      know that I invited Malankara Jacobite priest who concelebrate
                      for fucntions in my family. Do you give the same respect to
                      Malankara Orthodox church? If not, how can you say with
                      confidence that I am aganist Syrian Orthodox?

                      You may discourage me attending a Malankara Jacobite church.
                      But I will continue to do this until a final separation.

                      Syrian Orthodox in my mind is different from the church
                      portrayed by proud Malankara Jacobites, especially "chevaliers"
                      and the aristocratic rich who stand for division.
                      I know their position very well, because I was in their midst
                      for many years attending only Malankara JAcobite church
                      for about 6 continous years.

                      Yes, to some extent I am against the modern Syrian Orthodox.
                      But there is the Syrian Orthodox that is dying today:
                      with large number of abandoned monasteries and churches in
                      Turkey region. When I see large number of Syrian orthodox
                      going to Anglican and RCC for communion, it is indeed a
                      sad thing to me. A Malankara Jacobite told me:" I will
                      contunie to commune from Anglican, but not from Orthodox".

                      No explanation from my side can help you people understand me.
                      I have good mnumber of books about the real old Syrian Orthodox.
                      I do respect the old Syrian church which was pure in faith.
                      I remain a lover of the old Syrian Orthodox Church, which
                      I see is significantly different from the Syrian Church
                      after Patriarch Yakub 111. I hope you will understand me.
                      I wish to see a growing Syrian Orthodox in the middle east,
                      in the land were old fathers of Anthiocian church are resting.

                      Can you tell me how manuscripts ended up in British and Vatican
                      libraries?

                      -Thomas

                      --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Fr. John Kunjukunju" <fatherjohnkk@h...>
                      wrote:
                      > My full support to what John Philip wrote. I had on many occasions
                      wrote these matters to Mr Thomas P. No amount of explanation will
                      satisfy him. After closely analyzing his various thoughts in various
                      forums, what I derived of him is that his thoughts are disoriented and
                      too unrelenting to others' views. It is a sort of fanatism. We can
                      only pray for him., Love, Johnachan.
                      >
                    • thomas_pa1
                      Dear Achen, Forgive me. Don t give me any special respect because my parent if from Malankara Jacobite side. Treat me just like you want to treat a Malankara
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 14, 2002
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                        Dear Achen, Forgive me. Don't give me any special respect because
                        my parent if from Malankara Jacobite side. Treat me just like
                        you want to treat a Malankara Orthodox Christian or the way you
                        want to treat an Indian Christian.

                        St. Severios was not the only Greek father to occupy the throne
                        of Anthioc. There were many others. I have no evidence for their
                        works in Syriac. I do know that many of the works of St. Severios
                        was later translated to Syriac. The Christians of Anatolia,
                        and Northern Iraq regions used Syriac from ancient times.
                        But in Anthioc, Greek was the predominant language.
                        St. Severios was from a Monastery in Gaza region, were he lived
                        with Egyptian monks. He was a man of great fasting and prayer.
                        His hymn "B'slus emo deelethok..." (Nin maathavu Vishudhanmar...)
                        was originally written by him in Greek ("O Monogenis ...").
                        This hymn is also used by Greek churches.

                        Even today, the major part of Anthiocian church is Greek apeaking.

                        I have read the works of H.G. Mathews Mar Severios, especially
                        his research in the area of theology of St. Philoxenos of Mabbug.
                        There is no Petrine supremacy arguments in the works of St. Philoxenos
                        of Mabbug. Being a follower of St. Severios, Mar Aksnaya (St.
                        Philoxenos) wrote about the Christology of St. Cyril of Alexandria.
                        Beyond this, there is no teaching about the modern line of thinking
                        in the Malankara Jacobite church you find there.
                        H.G. Mathews Mar Severios also lists all the works of St. Philoxenos
                        of Mabbug.

                        I myself learned Syriac. I consider it a great ecclesiastical
                        language (like Coptic, Greek, Latin etc.). If church fathers
                        living in Syria developed all the wonderful work before 6th century,
                        we need to follow their footsteps and develop more and more
                        works in Indian languages about faith. This will help the growth
                        of Orthodox faith in India. This will happen only if we train
                        younger genration in this direction beyond too much pride about
                        Syriac language. Instead of allowing our church in India to die,
                        we must allow it to grow.

                        The Syrian pride I mentioned in my mails is the pride of
                        some "chevaliers" and aristocratic families about Syrian identity:
                        the feeling of superiority they get by imagining Syrian identity.
                        You know what I mean. So, please do not criticise me beyond what
                        I really mean.

                        Sincerely,
                        Thomas



                        --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Fr. John Kunjukunju" <fatherjohnkk@h...>
                        wrote:
                        > Dear Reji,
                        > One day before, this very question was asked to me in an email and I
                        with paternal regards gave him a reply. It was like this: While it is
                        true that St Saverious wrote his major works in Greek, he had also
                        written in Syriac. He was equally a scholar in Syriac too. The reason
                        is not what you think. He wrote in Greek so that he wanted his message
                        of church theology to be passed on to the intelligentsia. Why do we
                        write in English while we are Malayalees? Because we need to pass on
                        the message to those who do not Malayalam.
                        > Syriac is not the mother language of the present Syrians but it is
                        the vernacular of our Lord. The present Indian Orthodox bishop Mathai
                        Mor Saverious is already in the process of reviving Syriac and he
                        already published Gospel according to Mathew in Syriac, etc. The reply
                        was about half a page. This is for your information.
                        > I really appreciate your reply which is very apt. love, Johnachan.
                      • thomas_pa1
                        Dear brothers, Please listen to me. Last week I talked to a Malankara Jacobite relative of mine. He told me that it is fine to commune in Anglican church ( I
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 14, 2002
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                          Dear brothers, Please listen to me. Last week I talked to
                          a Malankara Jacobite relative of mine. He told me that it is
                          fine to commune in Anglican church ( I know that in Kerala this
                          person does not commune from Mar Thoma church). He also mentioned
                          that he can commune from RCC. Another close relative and an altar
                          servant of Malankara Jacobite church communes from Anglican church.
                          He was an youth leader in the Church and a person with strong
                          adherence to Mar Divannasios. So, where is faith in all these.
                          The faith my grand-mother taught me is significantly different
                          from what I see today. I know that both Malankara Jacobite and
                          Malnakara Orthodox side will ignore me.

                          So, to answer Daniel, it is true that His Holiness Patriarch's
                          agreement means only communion in certain situations. But, knowing
                          our people, I can predict for sure that eventually younger generation
                          (especially those living outside Kerala) will go to RCC because
                          of shorter service. Also there is no singing and other participation
                          of laity in RCC liturgy.

                          Hope I made my concerns clear. I have the same concerns about
                          Malankara Orthodocx church entering in to such agreements with RCC.
                          We also need to keep in mind that RCC accepts any kind of thing:
                          even cultic worship. Also according to Cardinal Ratzinger of
                          congregation of faith, a church entering to any kind of communion
                          agreement with RCC would mean (from RCC perspective) that, the
                          church is a part of RCC accpting the supremacy of Pope. This is
                          written clearly in "Dominus Iesus" statement, official statement
                          of faith from Vatican.

                          -Thomas
                        • daniel_reji
                          Dear brother Thomas P If laymen do not follow the guidelines of the Synod or the instructions of the church, we can t blame the Church or its leaders for that.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 15, 2002
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                            Dear brother Thomas P

                            If laymen do not follow the guidelines of the Synod or the
                            instructions of the church, we can't blame the Church or its leaders
                            for that. As we are the part of the Church, it is our duty and we
                            have to follow them.

                            Now comes back to Malankara, as long as the Christianity exist in
                            Malankara, the laymen will attend the Liturgies of other factions.
                            This is not because of the understanding of the theology but it is
                            because of our relations. Especially in the Travancore area each
                            family have the relatives from all the Christian sects. They can't
                            run away or stay away from the other liturgy services. As long as
                            Syrian Orthodox Church has an understanding with RC on Holy Qurbono
                            the belivers can receive the Holy Communion with out any second
                            thoughts. This applied to both factions of the Malankara
                            (Catholicose / Patriarch), because the Church in Malankara is the
                            integral part of the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church (By the
                            Malankara Constitution and the verdict of Honorable Supreme Court of
                            India and teaching of the late laminated fathers.)

                            Above all Orthodoxy is not a religion it is a way of life, which
                            taught us by the Almighty and his Apostle.

                            In my personal opinion if a layman accept the Holy Bread and Holy
                            Wine with the stern believe that what he receiving is the Body &
                            Blood of the Almighty he will be benefited from it regardless it is
                            given by whom (within apostolic church)?

                            If a Malankara Syrian Christian receives the Holy Communion from
                            Patriarch or Catholicose with out the true believe, that will be only
                            a "Godampappm and Munthiri Charu".

                            How many of us respect the Holy Bread and Wine? How many of us
                            participated the Holy Qurbono from the beginning of the Liturgy? How
                            many of us know what happening their? How many of us know what
                            happening during the "Anpudayooney….." singing? I notice many people
                            take this short period for a rest. One more thing which I noticed
                            (includes me) we stand with a lazy mood with typical "Kiyee Ketty
                            Nilpu" even on "Ezhinnallipu".

                            For all these things I cant blame my church. We should blame our
                            parents and godparents for it. And partially the Priesthood also has
                            to be blamed. Nowadays majority of them are not interested the Gospel
                            works instead of they are interested so called "Jeeva Karunya
                            Pravarthanagal", were they can get public image, name and so on….

                            So let us rectify our self before blaming our Church & Holy Synod.
                            Because we are Church. Without us no Church.

                            Thomas Daniel


                            --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "thomas_pa1" <thomas_pa1@y...> wrote:

                            > So, to answer Daniel, it is true that His Holiness Patriarch's
                            > agreement means only communion in certain situations. But, knowing
                            > our people, I can predict for sure that eventually younger
                            generation
                            > (especially those living outside Kerala) will go to RCC because
                            > of shorter service. Also there is no singing and other participation
                            > of laity in RCC liturgy.

                            > -Thomas
                          • John Philip
                            Thomas_ Pal brother, In your last response to me, you severely criticized all our SyrianFathers. Here again you are criticizing only our bishops. Why you
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 15, 2002
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                              Thomas_ Pal  brother,
                               
                               In your last response to me, you severely criticized all our SyrianFathers.  Here again you are criticizing only our bishops. Why you are not looking into your own community instead of digging into others.  Do you think everyone in your church are ok.  Can you deny the fact that even your church have reservations about many of your highest dignitaries.  In this era of switching loyalties for material gains, do you know there is a Very Important person in your Church who has stopped going to the Church itself.  Do you really wants to know why ?, Please come here at Kottayam and contact your top Church dignitary and enquire who is it & why ?  Remember he has not switched sides, but stopped going to Churches and avoids all the Priests and Bishops.  This may eventually happen  among the entire Orthodox Christians of Kerala, if some continue to encroach their neighbors for material gains.
                               
                              You critisize us for so called aristocratic rich persons in our Church who creates problems.  Whatever you tries to say, the Malankarites knows very well in which group this so called aristocratic group belongs and their role in manipulating everything, for their perosnal gains.  You come here to Kottayam and verify whether anyone in our Church had occupied any of the Church properties.  Now check if there are anyone in your Church with that culture.  Come to Kottayam and ask your leadership.
                               
                              Now one more thing, you criticize us saying that we are appreciating only the foreign (what is foreign?) fathers.  Every one here knows the fact that, we have many other Holy Fathers in India, like  Pulikottil Thirumeni, Parumala Thirumeni, Kadavil Thirumeni, Ambattu Thirumeni, Paulose Mor Koorilose Thirumeni , Athansius Valiya Thirumeni , late Catholica Baselious Paulose II Bawa, late Koorilose Thirumeni and many others.  You just come over here to India and enquire how we consider them. For persons like you, we are only after the foreigners, that's the mistake you always try to conclude.  Who really are the foreigners ? You or me?
                              Now whatever you tries to argue, the fact is that that atleast some of the Syrian fathers have suffered much, which is accepted by the forefathers of all the people of the two Orthodox Churches in India.  If you have any doubt read once again the extract from the biography published by Manorama.   In a book by a priest published from your Kottayam Seminary a few years back, he criticized Pulikottil Thirumeni for his support of Antiochean fathers, but at the same time he is avoiding criticizing Parumala Thirumeni who was Pulikottil Thirumeni's closest aide and Patriarch's secretary and closest companion, and a strong supporter of all the decisions taken by the Patriarch.  So why you criticize Pulikottil Thirumeni only ? you and every one knows the reason.  Do you know Parumala Thirumeni had appeared in the local court continuously for 14 days.  What he has declared there is a historical record which is available in court records. It is certainly not the faith of the present Independent groups.
                               
                              Anyhow let us all stop these arguments, which in no way, either of us will win, but only increase the enmity.  If you want to continue with your silly arguments, please respond it in your forums, there are many persons to listen and appreciate you.  Please, avoid us.  We are poor Syrian Christians of Kerala.  In this way we can be good neighbors.
                               
                              END.

                               




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                            • Fr. John Kunjukunju
                              Dear Reji, I fully agree with many of your observations and yet there is a little difference. I would share my experience. Truly, I came into the priesthood
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 15, 2002
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                                Dear Reji,
                                I fully agree with many of your observations and yet there is a little difference.
                                I would share my experience. Truly, I came�into the priesthood through gospel speech. More clearly, my then vicar use to offer me chance to speak once in a while. People then used to appreciate by fabulous words. But when I�became a priest people's attitude changed. I used to�confuse if I had changed. The fact is people do not like to hear gospel. The first and only complaint about me is that my speeches are long. People do not have patience to hear much The first instruction I received from the honorable faithful - rather administrators - is that gospel should not exceed 10 minutes. Even that 10 minutes speech should be only certain statements like "Neethisaram." Service should be cut short, etc. Nowadays people are more educated and affluent than priests in most cases and they think the priest has no right to�advise/correct them and gospel in its true spirit invariably involves certain amount of advise and correction�and call spade a spade.�The priests are mere paid servants and ironically in our church and in this diocese (USA) especially�no priest is paid a salary. Maximum is a hundred dollar per service in most cases. In other words, they are merely "Kurbanathozhilalikal." I doubt how this generation shall escape the wrath of God and if you say so you will be evicted out. In this pathetic situation blaming priests alone will not be fair. Honestly, I am the one regretting having taken up this robe and cannot do anything. Love, Johnachan.
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: daniel_reji
                                Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 4:49 AM
                                To: SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] Re: RCC communion
                                Dear brother Thomas P

                                If laymen do not follow the guidelines of the Synod or the
                                instructions of the church, we can't blame
                              • Thomas V.M
                                Dear freind, This is not theology.This is just psycology.What I see is a sort of mixed hatred.Like ,your loved thing in with someone.You are burning with that
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 18, 2002
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                                  Dear freind,
                                  This is not theology.This is just psycology.What I see
                                  is a sort of mixed hatred.Like ,your loved thing in
                                  with someone.You are burning with that feeling.Inside
                                  you the genetic jacobite feeling is there.But now you
                                  have taken up the new indian orthodox identity.
                                  Which you yourself feel is not the real one.Step
                                  Father cannot be the real father.
                                  So ddonot fight this false fight you get hurt.
                                  What we were taught by our fathers are to be believed
                                  and accepted.There is nothing better outside.We are
                                  thomas,mathais,kuriakose etc from the day xtians are
                                  in Kerala.I donot want bto change names.
                                  Regards

                                  --- thomas_pa1 <thomas_pa1@...> wrote:
                                  > Dear Achen, Forgive me. Don't give me any special
                                  > respect because
                                  > my parent if from Malankara Jacobite side. Treat me
                                  > just like
                                  > you want to treat a Malankara Orthodox Christian or
                                  > the way you
                                  > want to treat an Indian Christian.
                                  ________________________________________________
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                                • thomas_pa1
                                  But now you ... Names like Oommen, Chacko, etc. are pure Indian names. We started using English first names only after CMS missionaries in India. Before this
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jan 21, 2002
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                                    But now you
                                    > have taken up the new indian orthodox identity.
                                    > Which you yourself feel is not the real one.Step
                                    > Father cannot be the real father.
                                    > So ddonot fight this false fight you get hurt.
                                    > What we were taught by our fathers are to be believed
                                    > and accepted.There is nothing better outside.We are
                                    > thomas,mathais,kuriakose etc from the day xtians are
                                    > in Kerala.I donot want bto change names.
                                    > Regards

                                    Names like Oommen, Chacko, etc. are pure Indian names.
                                    We started using English first names only after
                                    CMS missionaries in India. Before this we used names
                                    like Chandy, Itty, Kochummen, chacko etc. You will not
                                    find such names in any other part of the world. Regarding
                                    ancestry, it is well written in my family history (the Pakalomattom
                                    one) that our ancestor was an Indian Brahmin. So there
                                    is no confusion here.

                                    But, in Orthodox confession, ethnicity is not important.
                                    This means equal importance to all ethnicities without
                                    reecting one's own God given identity. Our Indian identity
                                    is God given and hence blessed. We remember Coptic fathers
                                    like St. Cyril, St. Diascoros, not because of their Coptic
                                    ethincity, but because of their faith.

                                    There is no mixed emotions or confusion here. My confusion
                                    is about the way chevaliers's behaved to me in Kerala.
                                    As a young man, I am too worried about these chevaliers'
                                    splitting Malankara church for personal gains and destroying
                                    their real identiy. Knanaya is now going away based on their
                                    Syrian identity.

                                    Pray and work for unity based on Orthodox confession. One Malankara
                                    Synod is better than numerous divisions. I want all relatives to be
                                    under one Holy Synod. This will bring lots of peace in family
                                    life.

                                    Thomas
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