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Re: Jacobites' new stand

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  • Thomas Varughese
    Hi Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu(2912) I think you are not a Jacobite, if yes go and ask your grand parents what is the Jacobite heredity. For your knowledge,
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 6, 2010
      Hi Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu(2912)

      I think you are not a Jacobite, if yes go and ask your grand parents what is the Jacobite heredity.

      For your knowledge, The Parumalappally's (present orthodox pally) document in the name of Antioch patriarch.

      But there is no legal power to orthodox to get a chance in Manarcadu, Kothamangalam or the 1064 churches, which they trying to capture.

      So please leave your present dream.

      Thanks and regards
      Thomachen, Singapore

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    • Aji Thomas David
      Dear Mr. Sajy Is it not too much you are asking? Let deal with case by case. Parumala pally vs Kothamangalm pally is considerable, because both churches have a
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 6, 2010
        Dear Mr. Sajy

        Is it not too much you are asking? Let deal with case by case.
        Parumala pally vs Kothamangalm pally is considerable, because both churches have a common reason.

        Regarding Manaracd Pally let relate it with Puthupally Pally.

        Again in both case only spiritual fulfillment of the believers of both Church not any matter of the administration of the concerned parish.

        I think in that way both Churches will open a door for long lasting solution for the present problems in Malankara.

        In Christ
        Aji Thomas David
      • Reji Joseph
        Dear Sajy, I joined this forum very recently although I have been reading all the messages posted in this forum. Since you asked for comments, let me be
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 6, 2010
          Dear Sajy,

          I joined this forum very recently although I have been reading all the messages posted in this forum. Since you asked for comments, let me be amongst the first to tell you my thoughts...

          1. The arrangement of "shifts" for Holy Qurbana is there in a few of the churches that I know of. And in almost all these churches, there have been ugly fights over a lot of issues - not handing over the keys to the other party, creating problems even for the burial of departed faithfuls...etc. So "trouble" is perhaps the most natural result that will happen from such arrangements. Best option would be to have separate churches so each party can function independently without any clashes. This is what the Syriac Orthodox Church is trying for. But then the IOC seems to have a problem. This attitude of IOC reminds me of the Malayalam saying " ottu pullu thinnukem illa, ...."

          2. I don't think Syriac Orthodox Church has objected to the IOC building their own church in Kothamangalam or Manarcad. So IOC can go ahead, buy land and build their own church in these places. The proposal for allowing one Sunday to the patriarch faction to have Holy Mass on one Sunday in Parumala is only because of the
          objections to building our own church in Parumala.

          3. A bit of history now. I hail from Tiruvalla. We were in possession of the Kattappurathu palli before the great "samadhanam" of late 1950s. During that period, a request was put forth by the Methran Kakshis to just let them pray at the Kattappurathu church once. So all arrangements were made and with great celebration, their methran and party were welcomed to the church. Once inside the church, their attitude changed. Our beloved Kaniamparambil achan, one of the most respected priests in our church, was the vicar of Kattappurathu palli then. He was held by his beard and shoved out of the church!!! That is the incident which led to the establishment of St George Simhasana Church at Tiruvalla. And I am pretty sure the reason for so many other Simhasana churches would not be much different. Although we have forgiven the people responsible for this incident, that deep feeling of hurt still remains. And the lesson we learned is to not let such trouble makers in the Holy Church even once!

          Reji Joseph
          4513
        • Rev. Fr. Jerry Kurian
          Dear moderators, This is in response to Sajy s Thannikkottu s proposal..* Let one Sunday in every month be given to Patriarch side in Parumala church and one
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 7, 2010
            Dear moderators,

            This is in response to Sajy's Thannikkottu's proposal..*"Let one Sunday in every month be given to Patriarch side in Parumala church and one Sunday in every month be given to Orthodox side in Manarcadu & Kothamangalam churches."*

            The proposal as such is a good step to take by both churches. But before that we need to do certain things.

            1. Have one to one meetings to iron out differences.
            2. Withdraw all cases in various courts.
            3. Have confidence building measures (CBM) to prepare the people, clergy and bishops on both sides to act in a cordial way. This should not be difficult if both sides allow the gospel readings each Sunday to talk to us, rather than talking to the gospel readings.
            4. Agree to the fact that it is not unity which should be discussed, but cordiality, acceptance and equality that should be discussed.
            5. Allow the majority in each church to run the church. They can on the other hand build a church for the minority. This model has already been found to be successful in many places in Kerala.
            6. Have several meetings to discuss issues. Once issues are settled, have a moratorium or ban on filing cases for a minimum period of 20 years. This can be in good faith. But for this, we have to start trusting each other, which is not as easy as it sounds.
            7. Have a moratorium or ban on claiming one anothers church for a minimum period of 20 years. This can initiate us into several future mutual tie ups.
            8. Talk and behave with each other with mutual respect and acceptance.
            Listen to each other rather than preaching to one another. Stop claiming the number one position in India. There is no such position.

            If we can get a few of these things done, it will help towards a better atmosphere of love and trust. Without this, if we talk of sharing Qurbana in big churches, we will get into a deeper hole, out of which we can never come out. Thanks to Mr. Sajy for initiating this dialogue.

            Warm regards, Jerry achen.
            (Fr. Jerry Kurian)
            I.D. no. 4500
          • Dr. Leena Mathew
            Dear Mr.Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu,   Our SOC church is not creating any problem for IOC to construct their chuch anywhere. I saw a beautiful picture of IOC
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 7, 2010
              Dear Mr.Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu,
               
              Our SOC church is not creating any problem for IOC to construct their chuch anywhere. I saw a beautiful picture of IOC celebrating the 325th Dukhrono of St. Baselios Yeldho in Kothamangalam. So your suggestion has no place in the present situation.
               
              With prayers,
              Leena
              4136
            • Dipu George
              Very Cunning , Why only one church for us and two churches for them Sajy? For a Start we will start with one diocese at a time .. Lets start with Niranam or
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 7, 2010
                Very Cunning ,

                Why only one church for us and two churches for them Sajy?

                For a Start we will start with one diocese at a time .. Lets start with Niranam or Thumpamon Diocese Agreed? and when that works.. we will think about the rest of the Diocese what say?

                In Christ

                D George
              • Jomon Varghese
                Dear Sajy, There is a difference in the view of each churches. I woul like to point out an example; Gurgan s church has been excommunicated by your supreme
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 7, 2010
                  Dear Sajy,

                  There is a difference in the view of each churches. I woul like to point out an example; Gurgan's church has been excommunicated by your supreme spiritual leader and thus you are not allowed to receive communion or any sacraments from him or any of his priests. If you do accept communion from his group still, you are acting against your own spiritual head, whether it is administrative issues or spiritual issues involved in the excommunication, and are subject to disciplinary action. Not only that since the excommunicatio is in effect, you dont believe that whatever the sacraments they perform is invalid. It doesnt matter to you whether these guys follows the same tradition, faith and liturgy as yours. If this is accepted by you, then you have to accept our view on IOC, which is at the same level as Gurgan church for you. Our spiritual leader has asked us not to associate with the so called IOC or receive communion or sacraments from them and we consider IOC's sacraments as invalid (I know many of those who do not take it that way, unfortunately). In that case if we need a sacrament to be performed at Parumala, it is easier for us to build another church nearby the saint's tomb and do that without going with your suggestion of 'a week rotation' in the St. Peter's church there. As you know it will not be accepted by your own leaders even. Instead of creating problems in entering the St. Peter's church there, we are building our own church to fullfil our needs which is very Christian way of doing it. IOC should not protest these peacefull step of SOC at Parumala, as IOC has done the same thing at Kothamangalam and other places by building new churches nearby the famous SOC churches, and none of us ever protested it!

                  Jomon
                  3980
                • Sherin Chandy
                  No Way, Then we have to do church koodasha every month. S Chandy 4167
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 7, 2010
                    No Way, Then we have to do church koodasha every month.

                    S Chandy
                    4167

                    --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Sajy Thannikkottu wrote:
                    >
                    > Let one Sunday in every month be given to Patriarch side in Parumala church and one Sunday in every month be given to Orthodox side in Manarcadu & Kothamangalam churches.
                    >
                  • Sajy Thannikkottu
                    Thank you to all for overwhelming responses to my message posted here. Let me clarify in the beginning itself, as many know, I am not any kind of official
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 7, 2010
                      Thank you to all for overwhelming responses to my message posted here.

                      Let me clarify in the beginning itself, as many know, I am not any kind of official representative of the church & obviously my views expressing here are personal.

                      The problem with us in general is that we are always right but the other side is always wrong. But the fact is that one hand is not enough for clapping. We will continue to prick the other side as long we are not realising this fact. I hope I have attended those who said that the problem lies on the other side while saying above.

                      I am thankful to Rev Fr Jerry Kurian for attending me with many points. I am trying to attend them here.


                      1. Have one to one meetings to iron out differences

                      - This is the most important step required at this time.

                      2. Withdraw all cases in various courts

                      - I don't think this is going to happen very soon. Jacobite will ask withdrawal of cases, whereas MOC will ask for implementing what Jacobites bishops accepted in court. As both will not move from their own stand, I would suggest to maintain status quo.

                      3. Have confidence building measures (CBM) to prepare the people, clergy and bishops on both sides to act in a cordial way. This should not be difficult if both sides allow the gospel readings each Sunday to talk to us, rather than talking to the gospel readings.

                      - I am thankful to Achen for sharing this thought.

                      4. Agree to the fact that it is not unity which should be discussed, but cordiality, acceptance and equality that should be discussed.

                      - I agree to this point. Unity is the natural outcome if we can reach understanding on cordiality, acceptance and equality.

                      5. Allow the majority in each church to run the church. They can on the other hand build a church for the minority. This model has already been found to be successful in many places in Kerala.

                      - Let us maintain the status quo as I mentioned above but I don't agree building new churches which will normally get constructed few meters away from existing church. But I will agree if there is no church of either side within 5 KM radius. Otherwise we are simply increasing financial burden of followers.

                      In fact if we agree on point 4, we don't have to build new churches rather we will be able to live together.


                      6. Have several meetings to discuss issues. Once issues are settled, have a moratorium or ban on filing cases for a minimum period of 20 years. This can be in good faith. But for this, we have to start trusting each other, which is not as easy as it sounds.

                      - I agree to this point. We need to create confidence.


                      7. Have a moratorium or ban on claiming one anothers church for a minimum period of 20 years. This can initiate us into several future mutual tie ups.

                      - Referring to the point 2, I suggest to maintain status quo. Both side can agree not to file any new cases

                      8. Talk and behave with each other with mutual respect and acceptance. Listen to each other rather than preaching to one another. Stop claiming the number one position in India. There is no such position.

                      - I agree to this "Talk and behave with each other with mutual respect and acceptance. Listen to each other rather than preaching to one another. " For the rest of part in your message, currently our problem is not limited to India but it is going till Damascus. And so this remaining part should be applicable to all involved in this conflict & should not be limited to India if we are seriously looking for a solution.


                      Mr. Thomas Varughese said "I think you are not a Jacobite, if yes go and ask your grand parents what is the Jacobite heredity." The term Jacobite is using to mention those who followed Jacob Burdana. Those who followed Jacob Burdana means those who followed his faith. Jacob Burdana's faith is Orthodoxy. I hope this explanation will give you better insights.

                      Mr. Mathew G M said "you can't ask for a turn at Manarcadu and Kothamangalam for a turn just at Parumala". My proposal was only to begin with. Our leaders should sit across the table to find a way to come out. I have attended other part of your message in response to Rev Fr Jerry Kurian.

                      I will be traveling starting from Sunday. So I may not be able to take a follow up of this message properly. Just informing in advance to avoid comments from members that I ran away from this topic.


                      regards

                      Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
                      #2912
                    • BIBIN BABU
                      I think, its good to have one sunday for Jacobites at Parumala if they not allowing us to build our church. But we will not accept to give any sunday to IOC in
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 8, 2010
                        I think, its good to have one sunday for Jacobites at Parumala if they not allowing us to build our church. But we will not accept to give any sunday to IOC in Manarcad and Kothamangalam.

                        THANKS AND WITH REGARDS
                        BIBIN BABU

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                      • Sherin Chandy
                        Jomon, You explained the correct reason, Hi All, IOC is an excommunicated group so we cannot have communion with them, if any body is doing it they are doing
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 8, 2010
                          Jomon,

                          You explained the correct reason,

                          Hi All,

                          IOC is an excommunicated group so we cannot have communion with them, if any body is doing it they are doing wrong. In such a stand how can we allow IOC people to enter into our madbhaha, its a holy place and Holy qourbana is not a drama, play for show.

                          We can build churches where ever the law of the land allows.

                          in HIS love
                          S Chandy
                          id: 4167
                        • Dipu George
                          Dear All, I have to make a correction to what i wrote .. I failed to recall what our Moran Said when he visted Kerala last time. Our Holy Patriarch suggested
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 9, 2010
                            Dear All,

                            I have to make a correction to what i wrote .. I failed to recall what our Moran Said when he visted Kerala last time. Our Holy Patriarch suggested we and the Metran kakshis live together as sister churches.

                            I being an obedient Syriac Orthodox Church member abide by my Holy Father's wishes.

                            Concelebration of the Eucharist is impossible Sajy, Therefore Its better to co exist as two sister churches with their own individual church for the sake of peace and Brotherly Love Lets strive for that While the Cemetry can be shared ... The minorities can build their own church with ofcourse help from the majority in any church wich is disputed everwhere in Malankara ( Kerala) The Best case is Puthupally . Ever since the new church came up.. there has been no problem so far.

                            Let that be a shining example!

                            In Christ
                            D George
                            0174

                            P.S. Sajy - I pray and hope that this will sound wise to you too!
                          • Jaison Puthenpurayil
                            Dear members I really shocked when I read the statement of IOC s Mar Osthathios Tirumeni as he says orthodox church cannot accepts Primacy of St. Peter.
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 11, 2010
                              Dear members

                              I really shocked when I read the statement of IOC's Mar Osthathios Tirumeni as he says orthodox church cannot accepts Primacy of St. Peter. Respected Thirumeni, (Most of the people still respects him due to dedicated mission works.) I recalled my memories of my cousin sister's marriage which was solemnly blessed by Osthathios Tirumeni at Kuzhimattom Pally, Kottayam, long years back. Still haunting me the song "VEEDIN BHARANOM SHEEMONUM" I.E CHURCH RULER IS St.Peter .

                              I don't know IOC still using the same liturgy.

                              I remembered one of the news regarding the Primacy of St.Peter, Osthathios Tirumeni signed a statement, in the ecumenical meeting held at Changanacherry Catholic Bishop house (I think at the time of Bishop Antony Padiyara) as he represented for IOC, but I could not remember when it was signed. May be Moderators can bring back that news.

                              With prayers

                              Jaison Kuwait
                              2376
                            • Shinosh Philip
                              Hi Jaison, I am attaching the newspaper cutting of Mathrubhumi of said Syriac- Catholic Meeting. Ellarum kannadachiruttaakukayalle... ethra kaalam neelumennu
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 12, 2010
                              Hi Jaison,

                              I am attaching the newspaper cutting of Mathrubhumi of said Syriac- Catholic Meeting. Ellarum kannadachiruttaakukayalle... ethra kaalam neelumennu namukkuvnokkamm...

                              Shinosh Geevarghese Philip
                              Kuwait
                              4079
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