Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Jacobites' new stand

Expand Messages
  • Issac K. Joseph
    Jacobites new stand ... The Jacobite Syrian Christian Church will not construct a new church dedicated to St. Gregorios at Parumala, if the Malankara
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 4, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Jacobites' new stand
      ---------------------

      "The Jacobite Syrian Christian Church will not construct a new church dedicated to St. Gregorios at Parumala, if the Malankara Orthodox Church lets it to conduct service at least on one Sunday every month at the St. Paul's and St. Peter's Church at Parumala that houses the tomb of St. Gregorios, said Geevarghese Mar Coorilos, Metropolitan of the Niranom diocese of the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church."

      http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/kerala/article813056.ece

      Very vice and bold statement indeed!! This is what I requested to our leaders through my previous posting.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/18564

      But how come this part of the statement is not seen in the official press release or in the excerpts of SOCM News??

      In Christ
      Issac K Joseph
      0917
      =====================================
      From the desk of moderators

      This statement was not in the original written press release. It was one of the answers given by Thirumeni, to the questions raised by the reporters.

      As the moderators of this forum, we do also support Thirumeni's statement. Those who object the construction of our own church at Parumala Island must think about it. It is not come straight from us, but forcfully broughtout by the MOSC authorities and their appointed press persons. Now the ball is in their court.
    • Sajy Thannikkottu
      Though I know it will be difficult for both parties to accept this proposal, may I know your comments for this proposal. Let one Sunday in every month be given
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 5, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Though I know it will be difficult for both parties to accept this proposal, may I know your comments for this proposal.

        Let one Sunday in every month be given to Patriarch side in Parumala church and one Sunday in every month be given to Orthodox side in Manarcadu & Kothamangalam churches.

        regards

        Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
        2912
      • Shinu Jesus Abraham
        Greetings to All Couldnt agree more with the moderators. Frankly I never imagined the MOC will get so much agitated and hurt with SOC plans for a small church
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 6, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Greetings to All

          Couldnt agree more with the moderators.

          Frankly I never imagined the MOC will get so much agitated and hurt with SOC plans for a small church in parumala. Atleast now they should be starting to feel the pain we all go through at the sight of our 30+ closed churches. Now what thirumeni demanded is the least minimum as we should have. I hope and pray this "parumalapally" will open the doors for the final settlement malankara church dispute.

          By the way we even have many positive things to take from the Ayodhya court verdict too. May the peace makers of the Cheengeri and Malabar churches be blessed who are wise and real christians and understood the path ahead of many. Let our prayers continue which will defenitely be heard.

          NB: Being a regular visitor to the holy tomb i started dreaming of participating in holy sacraments in our "parumalapally". Let Him be praised.

          Regards

          Shinu Jesus Abraham
          ID # 2908
        • Mathew G M
          Dear Sajy, The Syriac Orthodox (Jacobite) Church has no problems in sharing its most Holy Churches with the Indian Orthodox or other Christians who share the
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 6, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Sajy,

            The Syriac Orthodox (Jacobite) Church has no problems in sharing its most Holy Churches with the Indian Orthodox or other Christians who share the same faith. Actually we have already shared the most holy church, St. Marks Monastery where our Lord ate his Last Supper and established the Holy Qurbana with the Indian Orthodox. Various priests and Bishops who visit the Holy Land, are allowed to celeberate the Holy Qurbana at this Holy Church, even while the Indian Orthodox file court cases to obstruct the visit of the H.H the Patriarch to India.

            http://www.epilgrim.org/malankara_visitors.htm

            Now your proposal is a good one. To be fair, you can't ask for a turn at Manarcadu and Kothamangalam for a turn just at Parumala. It will have to a turn at Parumala and at Pazhaya Seminary.

            There should be one more condition. The Syriac (Jacobite) Orthodox will give in writing that SOC is not interested in gaining administrative control of Parumala Seminary or Pazhaya Seminary; all the SOC is asking for is a chance to offer the Holy Qurbana once a month. Similarly the Indian Orthodox will have to give in writing that they are not interested in gaining administrative control of Kothamangalam or Manarcadu churches, nor will it claim to enforce the 1934 constitution on these churches, and all they are interested is a chance to offer the Holy Qurbana once a month.

            Then I believe this could be a workable solution.

            If the SOC can allow the IOC to celebrate the Holy Qurbana at the most Holy Church with in its possession in Jerusalem, with nothing in return for the IOC other than just hate and obstructions during the visit of H.H Patriarch, then the SOC can definitely give the IOC the chance to offer Holy Qurbana at Manarcadu or Kothamangalam.

            In Christ,
            Mathew G M

            --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Sajy Thannikkottu wrote:
            >
            > Though I know it will be difficult for both parties to accept this proposal, may I know your comments for this proposal.
            >
            > Let one Sunday in every month be given to Patriarch side in Parumala church and one Sunday in every month be given to Orthodox side in Manarcadu & Kothamangalam churches.
            >
            > regards
            >
            > Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
            > 2912
            >
          • Thomas Varughese
            Hi Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu(2912) I think you are not a Jacobite, if yes go and ask your grand parents what is the Jacobite heredity. For your knowledge,
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 6, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu(2912)

              I think you are not a Jacobite, if yes go and ask your grand parents what is the Jacobite heredity.

              For your knowledge, The Parumalappally's (present orthodox pally) document in the name of Antioch patriarch.

              But there is no legal power to orthodox to get a chance in Manarcadu, Kothamangalam or the 1064 churches, which they trying to capture.

              So please leave your present dream.

              Thanks and regards
              Thomachen, Singapore

              ===============================================
              From the desk of the Moderator:

              Please sign your messages with member ID. If not having a member ID, please send your details including contact number to moderators(SOCM-FORUM-owner@yahoogroups.com)and obtain a member ID BEFORE POSTING ANY MORE MESSAGES in SOCM. Thank you for your cooperation.
            • Aji Thomas David
              Dear Mr. Sajy Is it not too much you are asking? Let deal with case by case. Parumala pally vs Kothamangalm pally is considerable, because both churches have a
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 6, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Mr. Sajy

                Is it not too much you are asking? Let deal with case by case.
                Parumala pally vs Kothamangalm pally is considerable, because both churches have a common reason.

                Regarding Manaracd Pally let relate it with Puthupally Pally.

                Again in both case only spiritual fulfillment of the believers of both Church not any matter of the administration of the concerned parish.

                I think in that way both Churches will open a door for long lasting solution for the present problems in Malankara.

                In Christ
                Aji Thomas David
              • Reji Joseph
                Dear Sajy, I joined this forum very recently although I have been reading all the messages posted in this forum. Since you asked for comments, let me be
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 6, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Sajy,

                  I joined this forum very recently although I have been reading all the messages posted in this forum. Since you asked for comments, let me be amongst the first to tell you my thoughts...

                  1. The arrangement of "shifts" for Holy Qurbana is there in a few of the churches that I know of. And in almost all these churches, there have been ugly fights over a lot of issues - not handing over the keys to the other party, creating problems even for the burial of departed faithfuls...etc. So "trouble" is perhaps the most natural result that will happen from such arrangements. Best option would be to have separate churches so each party can function independently without any clashes. This is what the Syriac Orthodox Church is trying for. But then the IOC seems to have a problem. This attitude of IOC reminds me of the Malayalam saying " ottu pullu thinnukem illa, ...."

                  2. I don't think Syriac Orthodox Church has objected to the IOC building their own church in Kothamangalam or Manarcad. So IOC can go ahead, buy land and build their own church in these places. The proposal for allowing one Sunday to the patriarch faction to have Holy Mass on one Sunday in Parumala is only because of the
                  objections to building our own church in Parumala.

                  3. A bit of history now. I hail from Tiruvalla. We were in possession of the Kattappurathu palli before the great "samadhanam" of late 1950s. During that period, a request was put forth by the Methran Kakshis to just let them pray at the Kattappurathu church once. So all arrangements were made and with great celebration, their methran and party were welcomed to the church. Once inside the church, their attitude changed. Our beloved Kaniamparambil achan, one of the most respected priests in our church, was the vicar of Kattappurathu palli then. He was held by his beard and shoved out of the church!!! That is the incident which led to the establishment of St George Simhasana Church at Tiruvalla. And I am pretty sure the reason for so many other Simhasana churches would not be much different. Although we have forgiven the people responsible for this incident, that deep feeling of hurt still remains. And the lesson we learned is to not let such trouble makers in the Holy Church even once!

                  Reji Joseph
                  4513
                • Rev. Fr. Jerry Kurian
                  Dear moderators, This is in response to Sajy s Thannikkottu s proposal..* Let one Sunday in every month be given to Patriarch side in Parumala church and one
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 7, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear moderators,

                    This is in response to Sajy's Thannikkottu's proposal..*"Let one Sunday in every month be given to Patriarch side in Parumala church and one Sunday in every month be given to Orthodox side in Manarcadu & Kothamangalam churches."*

                    The proposal as such is a good step to take by both churches. But before that we need to do certain things.

                    1. Have one to one meetings to iron out differences.
                    2. Withdraw all cases in various courts.
                    3. Have confidence building measures (CBM) to prepare the people, clergy and bishops on both sides to act in a cordial way. This should not be difficult if both sides allow the gospel readings each Sunday to talk to us, rather than talking to the gospel readings.
                    4. Agree to the fact that it is not unity which should be discussed, but cordiality, acceptance and equality that should be discussed.
                    5. Allow the majority in each church to run the church. They can on the other hand build a church for the minority. This model has already been found to be successful in many places in Kerala.
                    6. Have several meetings to discuss issues. Once issues are settled, have a moratorium or ban on filing cases for a minimum period of 20 years. This can be in good faith. But for this, we have to start trusting each other, which is not as easy as it sounds.
                    7. Have a moratorium or ban on claiming one anothers church for a minimum period of 20 years. This can initiate us into several future mutual tie ups.
                    8. Talk and behave with each other with mutual respect and acceptance.
                    Listen to each other rather than preaching to one another. Stop claiming the number one position in India. There is no such position.

                    If we can get a few of these things done, it will help towards a better atmosphere of love and trust. Without this, if we talk of sharing Qurbana in big churches, we will get into a deeper hole, out of which we can never come out. Thanks to Mr. Sajy for initiating this dialogue.

                    Warm regards, Jerry achen.
                    (Fr. Jerry Kurian)
                    I.D. no. 4500
                  • Dr. Leena Mathew
                    Dear Mr.Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu,   Our SOC church is not creating any problem for IOC to construct their chuch anywhere. I saw a beautiful picture of IOC
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 7, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Mr.Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu,
                       
                      Our SOC church is not creating any problem for IOC to construct their chuch anywhere. I saw a beautiful picture of IOC celebrating the 325th Dukhrono of St. Baselios Yeldho in Kothamangalam. So your suggestion has no place in the present situation.
                       
                      With prayers,
                      Leena
                      4136
                    • Dipu George
                      Very Cunning , Why only one church for us and two churches for them Sajy? For a Start we will start with one diocese at a time .. Lets start with Niranam or
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 7, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Very Cunning ,

                        Why only one church for us and two churches for them Sajy?

                        For a Start we will start with one diocese at a time .. Lets start with Niranam or Thumpamon Diocese Agreed? and when that works.. we will think about the rest of the Diocese what say?

                        In Christ

                        D George
                      • Jomon Varghese
                        Dear Sajy, There is a difference in the view of each churches. I woul like to point out an example; Gurgan s church has been excommunicated by your supreme
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 7, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Sajy,

                          There is a difference in the view of each churches. I woul like to point out an example; Gurgan's church has been excommunicated by your supreme spiritual leader and thus you are not allowed to receive communion or any sacraments from him or any of his priests. If you do accept communion from his group still, you are acting against your own spiritual head, whether it is administrative issues or spiritual issues involved in the excommunication, and are subject to disciplinary action. Not only that since the excommunicatio is in effect, you dont believe that whatever the sacraments they perform is invalid. It doesnt matter to you whether these guys follows the same tradition, faith and liturgy as yours. If this is accepted by you, then you have to accept our view on IOC, which is at the same level as Gurgan church for you. Our spiritual leader has asked us not to associate with the so called IOC or receive communion or sacraments from them and we consider IOC's sacraments as invalid (I know many of those who do not take it that way, unfortunately). In that case if we need a sacrament to be performed at Parumala, it is easier for us to build another church nearby the saint's tomb and do that without going with your suggestion of 'a week rotation' in the St. Peter's church there. As you know it will not be accepted by your own leaders even. Instead of creating problems in entering the St. Peter's church there, we are building our own church to fullfil our needs which is very Christian way of doing it. IOC should not protest these peacefull step of SOC at Parumala, as IOC has done the same thing at Kothamangalam and other places by building new churches nearby the famous SOC churches, and none of us ever protested it!

                          Jomon
                          3980
                        • Sherin Chandy
                          No Way, Then we have to do church koodasha every month. S Chandy 4167
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 7, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            No Way, Then we have to do church koodasha every month.

                            S Chandy
                            4167

                            --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Sajy Thannikkottu wrote:
                            >
                            > Let one Sunday in every month be given to Patriarch side in Parumala church and one Sunday in every month be given to Orthodox side in Manarcadu & Kothamangalam churches.
                            >
                          • Sajy Thannikkottu
                            Thank you to all for overwhelming responses to my message posted here. Let me clarify in the beginning itself, as many know, I am not any kind of official
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 7, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thank you to all for overwhelming responses to my message posted here.

                              Let me clarify in the beginning itself, as many know, I am not any kind of official representative of the church & obviously my views expressing here are personal.

                              The problem with us in general is that we are always right but the other side is always wrong. But the fact is that one hand is not enough for clapping. We will continue to prick the other side as long we are not realising this fact. I hope I have attended those who said that the problem lies on the other side while saying above.

                              I am thankful to Rev Fr Jerry Kurian for attending me with many points. I am trying to attend them here.


                              1. Have one to one meetings to iron out differences

                              - This is the most important step required at this time.

                              2. Withdraw all cases in various courts

                              - I don't think this is going to happen very soon. Jacobite will ask withdrawal of cases, whereas MOC will ask for implementing what Jacobites bishops accepted in court. As both will not move from their own stand, I would suggest to maintain status quo.

                              3. Have confidence building measures (CBM) to prepare the people, clergy and bishops on both sides to act in a cordial way. This should not be difficult if both sides allow the gospel readings each Sunday to talk to us, rather than talking to the gospel readings.

                              - I am thankful to Achen for sharing this thought.

                              4. Agree to the fact that it is not unity which should be discussed, but cordiality, acceptance and equality that should be discussed.

                              - I agree to this point. Unity is the natural outcome if we can reach understanding on cordiality, acceptance and equality.

                              5. Allow the majority in each church to run the church. They can on the other hand build a church for the minority. This model has already been found to be successful in many places in Kerala.

                              - Let us maintain the status quo as I mentioned above but I don't agree building new churches which will normally get constructed few meters away from existing church. But I will agree if there is no church of either side within 5 KM radius. Otherwise we are simply increasing financial burden of followers.

                              In fact if we agree on point 4, we don't have to build new churches rather we will be able to live together.


                              6. Have several meetings to discuss issues. Once issues are settled, have a moratorium or ban on filing cases for a minimum period of 20 years. This can be in good faith. But for this, we have to start trusting each other, which is not as easy as it sounds.

                              - I agree to this point. We need to create confidence.


                              7. Have a moratorium or ban on claiming one anothers church for a minimum period of 20 years. This can initiate us into several future mutual tie ups.

                              - Referring to the point 2, I suggest to maintain status quo. Both side can agree not to file any new cases

                              8. Talk and behave with each other with mutual respect and acceptance. Listen to each other rather than preaching to one another. Stop claiming the number one position in India. There is no such position.

                              - I agree to this "Talk and behave with each other with mutual respect and acceptance. Listen to each other rather than preaching to one another. " For the rest of part in your message, currently our problem is not limited to India but it is going till Damascus. And so this remaining part should be applicable to all involved in this conflict & should not be limited to India if we are seriously looking for a solution.


                              Mr. Thomas Varughese said "I think you are not a Jacobite, if yes go and ask your grand parents what is the Jacobite heredity." The term Jacobite is using to mention those who followed Jacob Burdana. Those who followed Jacob Burdana means those who followed his faith. Jacob Burdana's faith is Orthodoxy. I hope this explanation will give you better insights.

                              Mr. Mathew G M said "you can't ask for a turn at Manarcadu and Kothamangalam for a turn just at Parumala". My proposal was only to begin with. Our leaders should sit across the table to find a way to come out. I have attended other part of your message in response to Rev Fr Jerry Kurian.

                              I will be traveling starting from Sunday. So I may not be able to take a follow up of this message properly. Just informing in advance to avoid comments from members that I ran away from this topic.


                              regards

                              Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
                              #2912
                            • BIBIN BABU
                              I think, its good to have one sunday for Jacobites at Parumala if they not allowing us to build our church. But we will not accept to give any sunday to IOC in
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 8, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I think, its good to have one sunday for Jacobites at Parumala if they not allowing us to build our church. But we will not accept to give any sunday to IOC in Manarcad and Kothamangalam.

                                THANKS AND WITH REGARDS
                                BIBIN BABU

                                ===============================================
                                From the desk of the Moderator:

                                Please sign your messages with member ID. If not having a member ID, please send your details including contact number to moderators(SOCM-FORUM-owner@yahoogroups.com)and obtain a member ID BEFORE POSTING ANY MORE MESSAGES in SOCM. Thank you for your cooperation.
                              • Sherin Chandy
                                Jomon, You explained the correct reason, Hi All, IOC is an excommunicated group so we cannot have communion with them, if any body is doing it they are doing
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 8, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Jomon,

                                  You explained the correct reason,

                                  Hi All,

                                  IOC is an excommunicated group so we cannot have communion with them, if any body is doing it they are doing wrong. In such a stand how can we allow IOC people to enter into our madbhaha, its a holy place and Holy qourbana is not a drama, play for show.

                                  We can build churches where ever the law of the land allows.

                                  in HIS love
                                  S Chandy
                                  id: 4167
                                • Dipu George
                                  Dear All, I have to make a correction to what i wrote .. I failed to recall what our Moran Said when he visted Kerala last time. Our Holy Patriarch suggested
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 9, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dear All,

                                    I have to make a correction to what i wrote .. I failed to recall what our Moran Said when he visted Kerala last time. Our Holy Patriarch suggested we and the Metran kakshis live together as sister churches.

                                    I being an obedient Syriac Orthodox Church member abide by my Holy Father's wishes.

                                    Concelebration of the Eucharist is impossible Sajy, Therefore Its better to co exist as two sister churches with their own individual church for the sake of peace and Brotherly Love Lets strive for that While the Cemetry can be shared ... The minorities can build their own church with ofcourse help from the majority in any church wich is disputed everwhere in Malankara ( Kerala) The Best case is Puthupally . Ever since the new church came up.. there has been no problem so far.

                                    Let that be a shining example!

                                    In Christ
                                    D George
                                    0174

                                    P.S. Sajy - I pray and hope that this will sound wise to you too!
                                  • Jaison Puthenpurayil
                                    Dear members I really shocked when I read the statement of IOC s Mar Osthathios Tirumeni as he says orthodox church cannot accepts Primacy of St. Peter.
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Oct 11, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dear members

                                      I really shocked when I read the statement of IOC's Mar Osthathios Tirumeni as he says orthodox church cannot accepts Primacy of St. Peter. Respected Thirumeni, (Most of the people still respects him due to dedicated mission works.) I recalled my memories of my cousin sister's marriage which was solemnly blessed by Osthathios Tirumeni at Kuzhimattom Pally, Kottayam, long years back. Still haunting me the song "VEEDIN BHARANOM SHEEMONUM" I.E CHURCH RULER IS St.Peter .

                                      I don't know IOC still using the same liturgy.

                                      I remembered one of the news regarding the Primacy of St.Peter, Osthathios Tirumeni signed a statement, in the ecumenical meeting held at Changanacherry Catholic Bishop house (I think at the time of Bishop Antony Padiyara) as he represented for IOC, but I could not remember when it was signed. May be Moderators can bring back that news.

                                      With prayers

                                      Jaison Kuwait
                                      2376
                                    • Shinosh Philip
                                      Hi Jaison, I am attaching the newspaper cutting of Mathrubhumi of said Syriac- Catholic Meeting. Ellarum kannadachiruttaakukayalle... ethra kaalam neelumennu
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Oct 12, 2010
                                      Hi Jaison,

                                      I am attaching the newspaper cutting of Mathrubhumi of said Syriac- Catholic Meeting. Ellarum kannadachiruttaakukayalle... ethra kaalam neelumennu namukkuvnokkamm...

                                      Shinosh Geevarghese Philip
                                      Kuwait
                                      4079
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.