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Re: Ammaye Njangal Marannalum, AnthyokkyayeMarakko olla

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  • Jacob V Joshua
    Dear Saju K Paulose, etc., I am very glad to see that the American Archdiocese is flourishing by the Grace of God.  I admire all those who are tirelessly
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 3, 2010
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      Dear Saju K Paulose, etc.,

      I am very glad to see that the American Archdiocese is flourishing by the Grace of God.  I admire all those who are tirelessly working for the Holy Church. At the same time, I am very sad to see the slogan used in the procession. 

      In the Seventees, when the present trouble started in our Church due to the stubbornness of the Kottayam Catholicose faction, I had also very loudly chanted this slogan from Vazhamuttom (Near Manjinikkara) to Ernakulam and back through loudspeakers, without knowing the meaning of it.  Now I understand what a blunder was this slogan.

      We should never forget our Amma, through whom and by whose sacrifice we have come to this world.  Even God had to choose a woman to come to this world.  The importance of a mother/Amma is not to be explained as every grown-up people know about it.  If the mother of a child does not sacrifice her life and look after carefully ever since the day of the birth of the child, that child will never grow complete in all aspects and become a perfect human being. 

      So, don't give any chance to forget our mother. We should also not forget Anthyokkya.  Why to bring Amma or Appa in the slogan shouting?

      Welcome discussions on this issue, if you desire.

      With prayers,

      Jacob V Joshua, New Delhi
      Memb. 911
    • Mathew G M
      Dear Mr Saju, This is very relevant. I agree with you 100%. Malankara Church has a historical connection with the See of Antioch and we will never forget the
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 5, 2010
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        Dear Mr Saju,
        This is very relevant. I agree with you 100%. Malankara Church has a historical connection with the See of Antioch and we will never forget the See of Antioch and will always have a special place in our mind for Antioch.

        The city of Antioch or the administrative set up of Antioch has no role in our salvation. The fullness of the faith in Jesus Christ as taught to us by the three ecumenical councils, is what we have to hold to. This fullness of faith was imparted to us by the fathers of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch. That is what will help us. So as long as we realize that it is our "faith" that we mean when we say we wont forget Antioch, then we are not in error.

        If it is some city or some race or ethnicity of people or some kind of language however old that langauge is; then it is utter foolishness for us to say that we wont forget that language or city or race of people even if we forget our mother.

        Mathew G M
        # 0929
      • Nebu Jacob
        Dear Jacob v Joshua You are totaly mistaken about the slogan.This slogan is for the people who is having great affection and relation to the Antiochian fathers
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 5, 2010
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          Dear Jacob v Joshua

          You are totaly mistaken about the slogan.This slogan is for the people who is having great affection and relation to the Antiochian fathers and saints who fought for the Christianity.Those saints and Sahada's forgot their life and home for christianity and for christ.

          "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me" - Mathew 10:37

          so the slogan doesnt mean that you should forget the mother and to remember Antioch.we know nobody can forget his /her mother,so this slogan shows our dedication to the community ,this slogan shows our love and commitment towards the Antiochan spiritual fathers and the liturgey.

          So This slogan is not at all a blunder...,

          "Antiocha Malankara Bandha Neenal Vaazhetteeeeee"
          "Ammee njangal Marannaalum Antiochayee Markoola...."
          "Moran MOr Ignarious Zakka Iwas I bavaa neenal vazhette.."
          "Aboon Mor Baselious Thomas pradhaman Bava neeval vazhettee...."



          Nebu Jacob
          Neelimangalam Chruch
          Kottayam.
          4133
        • Sajy Thannikkottu
          I happened to see the photographs. Seems like everyone enjoyed the occasion very well. Two things which I noticed here as irrelavant are 1. Slogan (Ammaye
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 6, 2010
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            I happened to see the photographs. Seems like everyone enjoyed the occasion very well.

            Two things which I noticed here as irrelavant are 1. Slogan (Ammaye marannalum .....) 2. 25-nmel Qurbana.

            25-nmel qurbana looks very good for its magical appearance. But I doubt its effectiveness as people will be more busy in evaluating each priests actions during any such Holy Qurbana. I think we should stop this practice in our church.

            And for the "Ammaye Marannlum..." slogan, I would say this is the worst ever slogan in any church in the entire world.

            I would be happy to watch if there is any videos available.

            regards
            Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
            #2912
          • Mathew Chacko
            Dear All, I just saw a mesage in IOC forum and a gentle man from Malasia is asking for contact details of Moosa Gurgan.I am sure there will soon be a Malasian
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 6, 2010
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              Dear All,
              I just saw a mesage in IOC forum and a gentle man from Malasia is asking for contact details of Moosa Gurgan.I am sure there will soon be a Malasian Diocease for Antiochian Orthodox Church of Europe - (AOCE) and the gentleman may be consecrated as its Bishop by Moosa Gurgan, likely to be assited by synod memebers of AOCE.

              If he likes to get consecrated at an undisclosed location,I would suggest, he should fly to Kerala and pay a vist to Mannuthy or Moovattupuzha.Carry a fax machine or Blackberry with you incase of any emergency.

              Best Regards
              Mathew Chacko
              ID#2382
            • Abin
              Jacob,I like to clarify your confusion regarding slogan Ammaye Njangal Marannalum, AnthyokkyayeMarakko olla . First of all let me tell that this slogan is not
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 6, 2010
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                Jacob,I like to clarify your confusion regarding slogan "Ammaye Njangal Marannalum, AnthyokkyayeMarakko olla". First of all let me tell that this slogan is not a simple one and not created from a foolish thought. It has a very vast meaning that is not explainable, that is beyound our thoughts, that is how it is created by our fore fathers who have great faith towards the holy throne of ANTIOCH. And I like to make understand the meaning of it.In the Bible you can see a sentence like "even if your mother forget you.... your God will not leave you ..." Here you can see the heights of relation between you and your God, more than the mother-child relation. 

                Let me start from the begining. In our life what is the importance of ones mother.... - that word itself is all ..... everything.... even no word in world is able to describe it. I think you agree with that.Let me come to the next point. Do you believe the place of God is more than that....? Surely it is.... if i tell "Ammaye Njangal Marannalum, nagaludae sataya daivamaya Yahovayae Marakko olla" it is also correct... right?

                Let me explain the exact meaning of this sentence. - Forget your mother is the worst moment in anyones life.... either he might be that much cruel... or beacuse of some reason.... Anyway that is the worst case in anybodys stage, may be its place, is just before the hell. After forget ones mother is there any meaning to live further ? Definitly it is not possible. We all should have to pray that we should not get into such a satanic stage.... 

                So now please think about our Lord's the holy throne of ANTIOCH. Its our lord Jesus Christ's throne, its our mother. If anybody forget that throne ... don't know what to say for that- a pathetic situation in life.... As i said earlier, If forget your mother is in a state just before the hell, then the state of forget the holy throne of ANTIOCH is the state of hell itself. So its real meaning is - even if we get into a situation, a worst one - forget our mother, we will not forget holy throne of ANTIOCH.

                Really that much importance is there. It is not a joke. That is why even if we die we are not ready to forget the holy throne of ANTIOCH. If you ask to our bishops/priests studied at Manjanikara dayro under Mor Julius Elias Bava or Mor Julius Jacob tirumeni or At Aluva, St Atahanasius Valiya tirumeny or to students of Chathuruthy, St. Mor Gregorius tirumeni, they will tell how they taught to younger generations about this holy faith in a very careful manner.

                I know that many of our faitful dont know exactly the importance of holy throne of ANTIOCH. We have to study the faith, history of chruch in detail. Don't under estimate our holy forefathers, If they made such a slogan, that has its own inner meaning which is in very depth,and may be not understandable very easy. So dear Jacob dont be worry about the slogan. Be proud of it. Its created by our wise fore fathers in the name of God to show their sincerity and loyathy towards God and the holy throne of our Lord Jesus Christ, - the throne of ANTIOCH.

                So we can say once more by understanding its right meaning.... "Ammaye Njangal Marannalum, AnthyokkyayeMarakko olla"

                Abin
                St Mary's Cathedral Valya Paly
                # 3257
              • Mathew G M
                Dear Nebu, There are Orthodox fathers that has taught us the faith. It is not the Antiochian Spiritual Fathers that we respect. It is the fathers who held on
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 6, 2010
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                  Dear Nebu,
                  There are Orthodox fathers that has taught us the faith. It is not the Antiochian Spiritual Fathers that we respect. It is the fathers who held on to the true faith. If you think all the fathers and saints that we remember in the 5th Thubden are Anthiochian then you are mistaken.
                  For example:

                  1) Mor Clemis (St Clement). Clement is Roman and was the fourth Bishop (Pope) of Rome.

                  2) Mor Deevannasios (St. Dionysius the Great) is Greek was the first Bishop of Athens.

                  3) Mor Athanasius is Coptic Egyptian as was the Bishop (Pope) of Alexandria.

                  4) Mor Yulios (St Julius) is Roman as was the Bishop (Pope) of Rome.

                  5) Mor Dioscoros is Coptic Egyptian and was the Bishop (Pope) of Alexandria.

                  6) Mor Timotheos is Coptic Egyptian and succeeded Mor Dioscoros as the Pope of Alexandria.

                  7) Mor Antemos is Greek and was the Patriarch of Contantinople

                  8) Mor Ivanios (St. John Chrysostom) was the Patriarch of Constantinople

                  9) Mor Koorilos (St Cyril of Alexandria) Coptic Egyptian, Patriarch of Alexandria.

                  As you can see a lot of the fathers that we respect and hold dear to our heart are Orthodox fathers who taught us the true faith. They belonged to all various sees Rome, Alexandria, Contantinople etc. As long as their theology was true and complete (Orthodox) we consider them our spiritual father.

                  Antioch always has a special place in the heart of every Malankara Christian. But please dont misunderstand that every spiritual father that we remember in our liturgy are Antiochean fathers. In fact most of them are not.

                  Some of the key Antiochean / Syriac fathers that we have are:
                  St. Ignatious of Antioch, St. Ephrem the Syrian, Mor Jacob of Serug, Mor Severious of Antioch etc.

                  Mathew G M
                  # 0929
                • Shinosh Philip
                  It seems that Saji and others who do not like the Slogan Ammaye Njangal marannalum Anthyokyaaye Marakilla , will not like the Holy Verses from Isaiah Can a
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 9, 2010
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                    It seems that Saji and others who do not like the Slogan "Ammaye Njangal marannalum Anthyokyaaye Marakilla"�, will not like the Holy Verses from Isaiah "Can a woman forgether sucking child,that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forgetthee." (Isaiah 49:15)Here, Our Lord Almighty says a mother may forget her child.

                    The said slogan does not mean or teach to forget their Mother. If you think so, I must say you are reading between the lines and that is a foolish thought as well. What would you say about the Song of Songs? If we read that Book in the same manner, we could say that Song of Songs is full of vulgar usages isn't it? In our Wedding ceremony we sing that "Nadha Nokkuka Sundhari njan, Enne Ettuka
                    Maniyarayil, Ninnude madiyil Shayanam Cheythaliyatte njan sukha Nidhra"� We can give different interpretation, if we wish to. But that is never the case.

                    OMG!!!!! Are you approaching all the Old sayings in the same way?

                    For one to forget or abandon his mother / parents, Forgetting or remembering Antioch the Holy See would never be a hindrance to his/ her decision; he would do so otherwise also.

                    I am evaluating the slogan with the hardship of our Antiochean Fathers who shed their blood for Malankara Church. I strongly believe that if they didn't shed their blood for Malankara Church, sometimes we might have been converted to Roman Church or even Marthomites. I doubt if any of the Indian fathers worked this hard for their believers during their spiritual persecution times like the Antiochean fathers ever did (That doesn't mean I am degrading the hard work and hardship of our fathers in Malankara). That blood shedding might not be for the Methran Kakshi church; it is 100% for the Holy Jacobite Syrian Church. That is why every Jacobites proudly says that "Ammaye Njangal Marannalum Anthyokyaaye Marakkilla"� and that comes from the bottom of our hearts with lots of memories.

                    Allathe Ammaye marakkum Ennala Angane Artham Kaanunna Methrankakshi Church nu Sthuthiyaayirikkatte.

                    God Bless

                    Shinosh Geevarghese Philip
                    Kuwait
                    4079
                  • John
                    Few guys are closing their eyes towards the fact. People who can rewrite(?) the history of Malankara Church is acting like as if they dont know the real
                    Message 9 of 9 , Aug 19, 2010
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                      Few guys are closing their eyes towards the fact.

                      People who can "rewrite(?)" the history of Malankara Church is acting like as if they dont know the real meaning of this slogan.

                      Even a high school student is aware that this slogan is not telling us to forget our mother...but to show our relationship with the holy throne...

                      Ente mashe engane kannadachu eruttakkalleeeeee

                      Brothers, beware that HISTORIANs may come up with even more crazy definitions...

                      Alex John
                      #2321
                      St Peters & St Pauls JSO Church, Bangalore
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