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Re: ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY

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  • thomas_pa1@yahoo.com
    ... Dear Daniel, Writings of Syrian fathers were not always in Syriac as you think. Some wrote only in Greek, e.g. Patairch Severios, you may not like him
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 12, 2001
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      --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Thomas Daniel" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:

      > For someone who would point to you the "tainted history" of the
      > Syriac Orthodox Church, I have a retort: What good has come of the
      > Malankara Church in the near 2000 years of its existence? The Syriac
      > Church has produced innumerable fathers and doctors who are today
      > held in reverence by Christians all over the world. It produced the
      > earliest translations of the bible, innumerable commentaries on the
      > Bible, 80 anaphoras, thousands of metrical hymns and homilies, and
      > the list goes on. What has the Malankara Church, with its apparent
      > glorious history produced during the same 2000 years? If the history
      > of the Syriac Church was that bad, why are the Malankara Orthodox
      > still using exclusively all the fruits of that dubious history?
      >

      Dear Daniel, Writings of Syrian fathers were not always in Syriac
      as you think. Some wrote only in Greek, e.g. Patairch Severios,
      you may not like him these days since you accept RC. There is
      nothing wrong in an unity with RC, provided it happens after
      discussion with rest of Oriental Orthodox Churches. That should
      be our Christian way.

      Also liturgy is not an intellectual property of an ethnic Church.
      Ethiopians use Coptic liturgy for sacraments, but in Geez, Amharic
      language. Indian Churches use Syrian liturgy as it was used
      in Jerusalem. We follow the Jerusalem writes received from,
      Mar Gregorios of Jerusalem, but in Malayalam language. Also
      many of our customs are different from that of Syrians.
      Similarly Coptic Church also produced many theologians and
      saints.

      It is not that we didn't had our own liturgy. We had everything,
      but foreign churches imposed their liturgy on us and distroying
      our works.

      Malankara Church does not lack in theological scholars and
      spiritual writings. There are many commentaries of Holy
      Eucharist written by 20th century Malankara fathers. In the
      area of theological dialogues with Eastern Orthodox, theologians
      from India contributed more than any. If you catalogue the
      works properly, perhaps 20th century Malankara Church
      produced more works than 20th century Syrian Church.
      Syrian Church did produce great works when the concentration
      of the Church was more on spiritual matters. Todays Church,
      I fear is a shadow of past glory. I think any Church has a
      dynamic existence confronting contemporary problems. Projecting
      just works of the past in not enough. Fathers of the past,
      when they wrote, were writing in respinse to problems they
      faced at that time, mostly theological controversies. But today
      we face more problems than this, especially problems created
      by advances in technology and changes in life style.
      Writings of some of the 20th century Malankara Fathers are more
      popular in Oriental, Eastern Orthodox and RC world than any
      other works originating from Oriental Orthodox Church.

      Some how we tend to give our own leaders and their works a
      low value. This lack in self confidence is due to our West-centric
      view of Christianity. Indian Christians tend to think that
      Christinaity is a Western (middle-eastern in your case) Semitic
      faith. But the Church of new testament can exist in a non
      semitic world. That is the beauty of Orthodox Christianity.
      Today we have Churches in all Indian cities, mission centeres
      with the full support of the Indian goverment. Do you know the
      reason why Indian government support the mission of Malankara
      Church and not RC?


      T
    • Emil@copticchurch.net
      ... years ... Hi reji and thomas. The reason why I joined this discussion group is to learn more about a fellow Oriental Orthodox Church along with the Coptic.
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 12, 2001
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        --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Thomas Daniel" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:
        > PS: The article in Glastonbury Review is possibly by Abba Seraphim,
        > bishop of the British Orthodox Church and relies heavily on Western
        > histories written by Catholics and Protestants who had their own
        > agenda in the Middle East. The British Orthodox themselves for
        years
        > had attempted to be in communion with the Syriac Orthodox until the
        > mid 90s, when they joined the Copts.
        >

        Hi reji and thomas.

        The reason why I joined this discussion group is to learn more about
        a fellow Oriental Orthodox Church along with the Coptic. And I am
        slowly trying to put things together as this is the first time I've
        encountered such history b/w the Syrian Orthodox Church and the
        Indian Orthodox.

        Can you please tell me more about the above information you posted
        regarding the British Orthodox Church. I remember Fr.Gregory of the
        British Orthodox Church came to visit us in Melbourne Australia and
        he mentioned the BOC trying to unite with the Antiochian church and
        it didn't work out because of problems. He also mentioned that
        Abba Seraphim was advised (in love and meekness) to seek communion
        with the Coptic Orthodox. What was the reasons behind this, and
        were there, is there any problems still within the Syrian Church as a
        whole? Forgive me if I'm wording things wrong... I'm an amateur in
        this area.

        I also remember Fr.Gregory stating Abba Seraphim tried with the Greek
        Orthodox too. He said all the Easterners were concerned about is
        land, money and the number of people within the Church. Things didn't
        work out there.

        In XC
        Emil
      • thomas_pa1@yahoo.com
        ... 1000s martyrs of Syrian church are there in Syria ... priest a ... St. Thomas!!! St. Thomas was a Malayali Orthodox Apostle who died for all Indians. I
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 15, 2001
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          --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Daniel Thomas" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:
          > Dear Members
          1000s martyrs of Syrian church are there
          in Syria
          > died for their belief, can U show me 1 malayali Malankara Orthodox
          priest a
          > martyr, NEVER U will find.

          St. Thomas!!! St. Thomas was a Malayali Orthodox Apostle who
          died for all Indians. I said St. Thomas was Malayali because
          in Christ race, ethnicity etc. vanishes. Indians (Hindus, Sufi
          Muslims, followers of Budha, Jains, Parsi, Malankara Nazrani etc.)
          were tolerant to other religions and that is why our Church did
          not produce many Martyrs. In the middle-east and West, people
          have an aggressive nature, probably because of excessive meat
          eating and wine drinking. Let us remain thankful to the great
          Indian civilization and maintain it in our lives.

          >Then why should I join subversion against Holy
          > Throne Of Antioch.

          A throne is holy only if it maintains the Orthodox faith.
          This is an ancient teaching. Alexandrian Throne is
          holy because it maintains the true faith. Syrian Church of
          Anthioc currently lives in communion with RC, so the
          Throne is not Holy according to ancient traditions of the
          Church (please read St. Cyril, St. Severus etc on this matter).


          >What Malankara bishop's party has its own apart
          >from what it has acquired from Patriarchs, not even 1 Prayer or saint
          >or priestly name
          > or dress. Slight differences are deliberately made now.
          >

          Almost all the names used by Malankara bishops are
          Coptic/ Greek. Athanasios, Kurillos (Cyril), Diascoros, Makarios,
          Anthonios etc. originated from Coptic Orthodox Church. The name
          Severios is also not Syriac. Infact St. Severios did not write in
          Syriac. Everything he wrote was in Greek.

          The attire currently used by Syriac Orthodox priests are similar
          to that of RC. For example, their cap is similar to that of
          Pope of Rome. Bishops also wear this kind of "makki Thoppi" similar
          to muslims, but in black color. The red attire of Syrian Bishops
          also is a copy of RC tradition. Only in head cover of monks and
          Bishops, the Syrian Orthodox Church truly follows the Alexandrian
          Coptic tradition (i.e. head cover with 13 crosses). Syrians got
          this from Alexandrian monks. The same is used by Indian monks.
          Original Syrian attire for Bishops is very close to what we see
          in Icons of St. Issac of Nineveh (Mar Issahac in Diptych #5) which
          is very similar to that used in North India among Rajasthani People
          and Sikhs (made of a long piece of cloth). Ethiopian Monks also
          wear such head cover made of yellow cloth.

          Hence the argument that Malankara clergy follows Syrian style dressing
          is no justification for the claims of Syrian authority over Apostolic
          Indian (Oriental) Orthodox Church.

          Thomas.
        • BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW
          ... From the desk of: B ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M B.E.(CSE) 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD COCHIN-682 024 SOUTH INDIA
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 13, 2002
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            ---
            From the desk of:
            B
            ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
            BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
            B.E.(CSE)

            32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
            COCHIN-682 024
            SOUTH INDIA

            email:bibuphilipmathew@...
            :hellobibu@...

            NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.

            ______________________________________________
          • DANIEL BABU PAUL
            TOTUS TUUS MARIA ... From: BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW To: Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:23 AM
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 14, 2002
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              TOTUS TUUS MARIA
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW <bibuphilipmathew@...>
              To: <SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:23 AM
              Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY


              > ---
              > From the desk of:
              > B
              > ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
              > BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
              > B.E.(CSE)
              >
              > 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
              > COCHIN-682 024
              > SOUTH INDIA
              >
              > email:bibuphilipmathew@...
              > :hellobibu@...
              >
              > NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.
              >
              > ______________________________________________
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Aji Thomas
              Thanks for the nice and informative article Aji ... Desk Of Bibu.doc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 14, 2002
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                Thanks for the nice and informative article

                Aji

                --- BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW
                <bibuphilipmathew@...> wrote:
                > ---
                > From the desk of:
                > B
                > ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                > BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                > B.E.(CSE)
                >
                > 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                > COCHIN-682 024
                > SOUTH INDIA
                >
                > email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                > :hellobibu@...
                >
                > NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.
                >
                > ______________________________________________

                > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/msword name=From the
                Desk Of Bibu.doc



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              • V Thomas
                Bravo! It was very good. You have condensed the whole history nicely. Ending quoation was fantastic. Devil is running around to have a big crowd in the
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 15, 2002
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                  Bravo!
                  It was very good. You have condensed the whole history nicely.
                  Ending quoation was fantastic. Devil is running around to have a big crowd
                  in the association meting.
                  Natuaaly they will make sure the crowd is big by hook or crook.
                  vmt
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW" <bibuphilipmathew@...>
                  To: <SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:23 AM
                  Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY


                  > ---
                  > >From the desk of:
                  > B
                  > ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                  > BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                  > B.E.(CSE)
                  >
                  > 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                  > COCHIN-682 024
                  > SOUTH INDIA
                  >
                  > email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                  > :hellobibu@...
                  >
                  > NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.
                  >
                  > ______________________________________________
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
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