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Re: ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY

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  • thomas_pa1@yahoo.com
    ... oath ... Please do not consider this response a counter argument to impose my views on you. I am interested in knowing if we had any connection with West
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 12 8:40 AM
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      --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Thomas Daniel" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:
      > Dear Thomas
      >

      > Even accounts of a single incident widely vary. For e.g., Catholics
      > claim that in Koonen Kurishu Sathyam, people took an oath only
      > against the Jesuits, the Indian Orthodox claim that they took an
      oath
      > of independence, where as our faction claims that they took an oath
      > to be under Antioch. I think the reality was closer to rejecting the
      > Roman yoke, but it is hard to tell. The fact of the matter is that
      > even if historians or archaelogists were to come up with evidence to
      > support any of the statements, it doesn't make even a bit of a
      > difference in the positions of the denominations. When history
      > becomes inconvenient, it is conveniently forgotten.

      Please do not consider this response a counter argument to impose
      my views on you. I am interested in knowing if we had any connection
      with West Syrian Church of Anthioc prior to 1965. I know about
      the connection of Malnakara Christians with persian Church.
      This is one reason why Catholics use chaldean syriac. Even in
      rest of the community, commonly used words are in chaldean
      syriac.

      In writing history, the West is perhaps far better than East,
      especially Indians. In India, there is no tradition of writing
      history. This makes it easy for various Churches to create
      their own history and take advantage of the lesser.

      There is historic evidence, in Syrian tradition and Indian tradition
      that "Koonan Kurish" oath was for re-establishing ties with Anthioc.
      I was reading a book written in the 17th century by an Anglican
      on the situation in India at the time of Koonan Kurish. There is
      absolutely no mention of Anthioc there. On the otherhand it is
      our common faith that the Indian leader of Indian Christians,
      i.e. Thoma, sent messengers not only to Anthioc, but to the
      Patriarchate of Alxandria also. Remember that Alexandrian connection
      is not something new. There is historical evidence that St. Demetrios
      the Patriarch of Alexandria sent St. Pantaneus to India. Can
      you provide evidence for any connection of Indian Church with
      Anthioc prior to 1965??

      By the way what is wrong with India, Indians and Indian bishops?
      Are they not human beings just like Syrians? Or is it that Syrians
      are superior to Indians. Let us think in Christian terms keeping
      the Orthodox faith. I am looking for concrete evidence that supports
      your view about Indian Church founded by St. Thomas.

      My view is that, St. Thomas establishing a Church in India is
      very similar to St. Mark's mission in Egypt and Alexandria. Only
      difference is that India was outside of Byzantine and Roman
      empire, so Patriarchates in the model of Churches in middle east
      and Africa, did not develop in India. Situation in India
      would have been much different, if our connection was with
      Alexandria and not with Syrian Church. Major cause of divisions
      in the Indian Church is the political unrest in the Syrian Church
      in the 20th century.

      T
    • thomas_pa1@yahoo.com
      ... Dear Daniel, Writings of Syrian fathers were not always in Syriac as you think. Some wrote only in Greek, e.g. Patairch Severios, you may not like him
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 12 9:06 AM
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        --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Thomas Daniel" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:

        > For someone who would point to you the "tainted history" of the
        > Syriac Orthodox Church, I have a retort: What good has come of the
        > Malankara Church in the near 2000 years of its existence? The Syriac
        > Church has produced innumerable fathers and doctors who are today
        > held in reverence by Christians all over the world. It produced the
        > earliest translations of the bible, innumerable commentaries on the
        > Bible, 80 anaphoras, thousands of metrical hymns and homilies, and
        > the list goes on. What has the Malankara Church, with its apparent
        > glorious history produced during the same 2000 years? If the history
        > of the Syriac Church was that bad, why are the Malankara Orthodox
        > still using exclusively all the fruits of that dubious history?
        >

        Dear Daniel, Writings of Syrian fathers were not always in Syriac
        as you think. Some wrote only in Greek, e.g. Patairch Severios,
        you may not like him these days since you accept RC. There is
        nothing wrong in an unity with RC, provided it happens after
        discussion with rest of Oriental Orthodox Churches. That should
        be our Christian way.

        Also liturgy is not an intellectual property of an ethnic Church.
        Ethiopians use Coptic liturgy for sacraments, but in Geez, Amharic
        language. Indian Churches use Syrian liturgy as it was used
        in Jerusalem. We follow the Jerusalem writes received from,
        Mar Gregorios of Jerusalem, but in Malayalam language. Also
        many of our customs are different from that of Syrians.
        Similarly Coptic Church also produced many theologians and
        saints.

        It is not that we didn't had our own liturgy. We had everything,
        but foreign churches imposed their liturgy on us and distroying
        our works.

        Malankara Church does not lack in theological scholars and
        spiritual writings. There are many commentaries of Holy
        Eucharist written by 20th century Malankara fathers. In the
        area of theological dialogues with Eastern Orthodox, theologians
        from India contributed more than any. If you catalogue the
        works properly, perhaps 20th century Malankara Church
        produced more works than 20th century Syrian Church.
        Syrian Church did produce great works when the concentration
        of the Church was more on spiritual matters. Todays Church,
        I fear is a shadow of past glory. I think any Church has a
        dynamic existence confronting contemporary problems. Projecting
        just works of the past in not enough. Fathers of the past,
        when they wrote, were writing in respinse to problems they
        faced at that time, mostly theological controversies. But today
        we face more problems than this, especially problems created
        by advances in technology and changes in life style.
        Writings of some of the 20th century Malankara Fathers are more
        popular in Oriental, Eastern Orthodox and RC world than any
        other works originating from Oriental Orthodox Church.

        Some how we tend to give our own leaders and their works a
        low value. This lack in self confidence is due to our West-centric
        view of Christianity. Indian Christians tend to think that
        Christinaity is a Western (middle-eastern in your case) Semitic
        faith. But the Church of new testament can exist in a non
        semitic world. That is the beauty of Orthodox Christianity.
        Today we have Churches in all Indian cities, mission centeres
        with the full support of the Indian goverment. Do you know the
        reason why Indian government support the mission of Malankara
        Church and not RC?


        T
      • Emil@copticchurch.net
        ... years ... Hi reji and thomas. The reason why I joined this discussion group is to learn more about a fellow Oriental Orthodox Church along with the Coptic.
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 12 4:33 PM
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          --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Thomas Daniel" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:
          > PS: The article in Glastonbury Review is possibly by Abba Seraphim,
          > bishop of the British Orthodox Church and relies heavily on Western
          > histories written by Catholics and Protestants who had their own
          > agenda in the Middle East. The British Orthodox themselves for
          years
          > had attempted to be in communion with the Syriac Orthodox until the
          > mid 90s, when they joined the Copts.
          >

          Hi reji and thomas.

          The reason why I joined this discussion group is to learn more about
          a fellow Oriental Orthodox Church along with the Coptic. And I am
          slowly trying to put things together as this is the first time I've
          encountered such history b/w the Syrian Orthodox Church and the
          Indian Orthodox.

          Can you please tell me more about the above information you posted
          regarding the British Orthodox Church. I remember Fr.Gregory of the
          British Orthodox Church came to visit us in Melbourne Australia and
          he mentioned the BOC trying to unite with the Antiochian church and
          it didn't work out because of problems. He also mentioned that
          Abba Seraphim was advised (in love and meekness) to seek communion
          with the Coptic Orthodox. What was the reasons behind this, and
          were there, is there any problems still within the Syrian Church as a
          whole? Forgive me if I'm wording things wrong... I'm an amateur in
          this area.

          I also remember Fr.Gregory stating Abba Seraphim tried with the Greek
          Orthodox too. He said all the Easterners were concerned about is
          land, money and the number of people within the Church. Things didn't
          work out there.

          In XC
          Emil
        • thomas_pa1@yahoo.com
          ... 1000s martyrs of Syrian church are there in Syria ... priest a ... St. Thomas!!! St. Thomas was a Malayali Orthodox Apostle who died for all Indians. I
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 15, 2001
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            --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Daniel Thomas" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:
            > Dear Members
            1000s martyrs of Syrian church are there
            in Syria
            > died for their belief, can U show me 1 malayali Malankara Orthodox
            priest a
            > martyr, NEVER U will find.

            St. Thomas!!! St. Thomas was a Malayali Orthodox Apostle who
            died for all Indians. I said St. Thomas was Malayali because
            in Christ race, ethnicity etc. vanishes. Indians (Hindus, Sufi
            Muslims, followers of Budha, Jains, Parsi, Malankara Nazrani etc.)
            were tolerant to other religions and that is why our Church did
            not produce many Martyrs. In the middle-east and West, people
            have an aggressive nature, probably because of excessive meat
            eating and wine drinking. Let us remain thankful to the great
            Indian civilization and maintain it in our lives.

            >Then why should I join subversion against Holy
            > Throne Of Antioch.

            A throne is holy only if it maintains the Orthodox faith.
            This is an ancient teaching. Alexandrian Throne is
            holy because it maintains the true faith. Syrian Church of
            Anthioc currently lives in communion with RC, so the
            Throne is not Holy according to ancient traditions of the
            Church (please read St. Cyril, St. Severus etc on this matter).


            >What Malankara bishop's party has its own apart
            >from what it has acquired from Patriarchs, not even 1 Prayer or saint
            >or priestly name
            > or dress. Slight differences are deliberately made now.
            >

            Almost all the names used by Malankara bishops are
            Coptic/ Greek. Athanasios, Kurillos (Cyril), Diascoros, Makarios,
            Anthonios etc. originated from Coptic Orthodox Church. The name
            Severios is also not Syriac. Infact St. Severios did not write in
            Syriac. Everything he wrote was in Greek.

            The attire currently used by Syriac Orthodox priests are similar
            to that of RC. For example, their cap is similar to that of
            Pope of Rome. Bishops also wear this kind of "makki Thoppi" similar
            to muslims, but in black color. The red attire of Syrian Bishops
            also is a copy of RC tradition. Only in head cover of monks and
            Bishops, the Syrian Orthodox Church truly follows the Alexandrian
            Coptic tradition (i.e. head cover with 13 crosses). Syrians got
            this from Alexandrian monks. The same is used by Indian monks.
            Original Syrian attire for Bishops is very close to what we see
            in Icons of St. Issac of Nineveh (Mar Issahac in Diptych #5) which
            is very similar to that used in North India among Rajasthani People
            and Sikhs (made of a long piece of cloth). Ethiopian Monks also
            wear such head cover made of yellow cloth.

            Hence the argument that Malankara clergy follows Syrian style dressing
            is no justification for the claims of Syrian authority over Apostolic
            Indian (Oriental) Orthodox Church.

            Thomas.
          • BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW
            ... From the desk of: B ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M B.E.(CSE) 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD COCHIN-682 024 SOUTH INDIA
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 13 7:53 PM
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              ---
              From the desk of:
              B
              ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
              BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
              B.E.(CSE)

              32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
              COCHIN-682 024
              SOUTH INDIA

              email:bibuphilipmathew@...
              :hellobibu@...

              NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.

              ______________________________________________
            • DANIEL BABU PAUL
              TOTUS TUUS MARIA ... From: BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW To: Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:23 AM
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 14 4:44 AM
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                TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW <bibuphilipmathew@...>
                To: <SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:23 AM
                Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY


                > ---
                > From the desk of:
                > B
                > ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                > BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                > B.E.(CSE)
                >
                > 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                > COCHIN-682 024
                > SOUTH INDIA
                >
                > email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                > :hellobibu@...
                >
                > NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.
                >
                > ______________________________________________
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Aji Thomas
                Thanks for the nice and informative article Aji ... Desk Of Bibu.doc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 14 6:19 AM
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                  Thanks for the nice and informative article

                  Aji

                  --- BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW
                  <bibuphilipmathew@...> wrote:
                  > ---
                  > From the desk of:
                  > B
                  > ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                  > BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                  > B.E.(CSE)
                  >
                  > 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                  > COCHIN-682 024
                  > SOUTH INDIA
                  >
                  > email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                  > :hellobibu@...
                  >
                  > NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.
                  >
                  > ______________________________________________

                  > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/msword name=From the
                  Desk Of Bibu.doc



                  __________________________________________________
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                • V Thomas
                  Bravo! It was very good. You have condensed the whole history nicely. Ending quoation was fantastic. Devil is running around to have a big crowd in the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 15 11:59 PM
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                    Bravo!
                    It was very good. You have condensed the whole history nicely.
                    Ending quoation was fantastic. Devil is running around to have a big crowd
                    in the association meting.
                    Natuaaly they will make sure the crowd is big by hook or crook.
                    vmt
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW" <bibuphilipmathew@...>
                    To: <SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:23 AM
                    Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY


                    > ---
                    > >From the desk of:
                    > B
                    > ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                    > BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                    > B.E.(CSE)
                    >
                    > 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                    > COCHIN-682 024
                    > SOUTH INDIA
                    >
                    > email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                    > :hellobibu@...
                    >
                    > NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.
                    >
                    > ______________________________________________
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
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