Re: Peter's Primacy
- Dear Leena Mathew
I do not want spend time for argument. Acts of Apostle,the book is mainly dealing with mission work of St.Paul and St.Peter equally in the early church. There is nothing in Acts of Apostles supporting the supremecy of St.Peter in Church Of Christ. The New israel (Church) came into existence With Jesus Christ who is the High Priest like(in the order of) Melchizadek. He Jesus sent his apostles as Ambassidors Of Christ. Apostolic ministry is reconciliation. Jesus Christ gave the apostles ministry of reconciliation to all his disciples Being ambassadors for Christ,we implore you on christs behalf be reconciled to God(2 Corinth5;16-20) Where is this reconciliation?
Jesus Gave his Authority to 12 Disciples not to St.Peter alone, read Luke 9:1-2.again Read Mathew28:18-20.
Jesus also sent 70 emissaries for mission work with authority.(Luke
The First synod in Jerusalem was presided By St.James and not St.Peter
although Peter adressed the synod on faith issues(acts.15)
Read Galatians 2:11-14 whereby St.Paul rebuked st.Peter at Antioch,How come this when you claim St.Pter is the Supreme head of Visible church.He is the Leader of Disciples before and after Pentacost.
How Paul beame an apostle (read Galat 1:11-19)Here no mention of St.Peter or other disciples.
Antioch was a Business centre/town with jews and Gentiles as populated
city. The name Christians were got from Antioch after the Conversion of Saul(St.Paul)It was the church in Jerusalem who organised to bring/send Saul to Antioch(Acts11:25-26)After Saul (st.Paul worked there in Antioch for about an year then followers of Christ were known/called as Christians.It is clear that the name Christian is not because Of St.Peter's work alone but because of other disciples work too in Antioch.
Throne In Antoch, I cannot agree to your wording " throne establishment" as the truth is St Peter preached gospel there in Antioch and established church there.Jesus promised throne of Judgement to his 12 discipleles on his second coming and in heaven there are 24 thrones of Elders(mathew19:28 and Rev 4:10)
Jesus told Pilate that his Kingdom is not here on earth.How Come Then we(SOC) Claim throne of St.Peter in Antioch, and IOC claim throne of St.Thomas in India?.Also refer to St.Paul's teaching 1Corinth 10-17 regarding the divisions in early church.
The Holy City of God is mentioned in Revelation 21:10-27). The Wall of Holy city is built upon 12 Apostles(Revel 21:15)
Judaism was Governed by Law And God gave the law through Moses.
St.Peter was not like Moses as he Moses was the Deliverer of Israel from Eagypt.Read epistle of 1. Peter 5:1,I whom a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ.....here St.Peter claim himself as a fellow elder
On Pentacost day All 12 disciples spoke in different languges by the power of holy spirit(acts2:1-13). when the Different nations of jews gathered there/multitude who mocked at the disciples as drunkards then St.Peter presided and addressed the gathering.(acts2:14-42)
The keys of Heaven were given To Simon Peter:-
you are taking it literally. Keys of heaven means to become citizens of heaven.for a person to become citizen of heaven to become disciple of christ/become child of God, through baptism.This why Jesus told his apostles to go and preach everywhere, to all people, all nations and teach them obey everything tha the( jesus) commanded to his disciples.The Risen christ first appeared to Mary Magdalene and she was the one who gave news of resuurection to Simon Peter and others.
what I mentioned earlier was from 2Peter3:15 "Look in our Lord's patience as the oppertunity he is giving you to be saved just as our dear brother Paul wrote you using the wisdom that God give him....."
No councils/synod were held in Antioch or none of antioch Partriarch
presided any first three councils/synods of early church.
I take this oppertunity to thank you all and urge you people to read Orthox Study Bible to know about orthodoxy rather than contradicting the early church traditions.
--- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Leena Mathew wrote:
> Dear Rinu Sam,
> Let me address your reply, points by points:
> (1) YOU ARE TALKING AGAINST ORTHODOXY.
> I am not talking against Orthodoxy. As a matter of fact, I am talking inline with the Orthodoxy. The subsequent points will support my statement.
> (2) THERE IS NO SPECIAL AUTHORITY GIVEN TO ST.PETER BY JESUS CHRIST. JESUS CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF CHURCH (VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE)
- I am afraid there are misunderstanding. Acts 15 is talking about allowing uncircumcised Gentiles to enter the church. Peter was a major figure in this controversy with James leading the council. The decision of the council was to allow gentiles and set aside circumcision. However, some conditions remained, including abstaining from eating blood.
Galatians 2 clearly shows Paul rebuking Peter
2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he had clearly done wrong. 2:12 Until certain people came from James, he had been eating with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he stopped doing this and separated himself because he was afraid of those who were pro-circumcision. 2:13 And the rest of the Jews also joined with him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray with them by their hypocrisy. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not behaving consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "If you, although you are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you try to force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"
2:15 We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, 2:16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. 2:17 But if while seeking to be justified in Christ we ourselves have also been found to be sinners, is Christ then one who encourages sin? Absolutely not! 2:18 But if I build up again those things I once destroyed, I demonstrate that I am one who breaks God's law. 2:19 For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God. 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not set aside God's grace, because if righteousness could come through the law, then Christ died for nothing!
I also would like to inform you that Oriental Orthodox churches are in full communion. As of my knowledge members of Oriental Orthodox churches are
1. The Armenian Apostolic Church of All Armenians - traces its origins to the missions of Apostles Bartholomew and Thaddeus in the 1st century
2. The Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria - traces its origins to St.Mark 1st century
3. The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church - The Ethiopian Church claims its Philip the Evangelist (Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 8)
4. The Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church - The progenitor of the Eritrean Orthodox Church; the Ethiopian Church, claims its origins from Philip the Evangelist (Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 8)
5. The Syriac Orthodox Church - traces its origins to St.Peter 1st century
6. The Indian (Malankara) Orthodox Syrian Church - traces its origins to St.Thomas 1st century
So even if Indian Orthodox Church is an excommunicated group according to Malankara Jacobite faithful, it is in full communion with SOC
Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
- Dear All.
Each of the deciples are considered as the head of 12 Tribes , They all sacrificed for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. God's verses whatever mentioned in the Holy Bible are true and perfect and there is no point in finding fault with our human brain( It is true that , our brains are very limited). Who is supreme or who is not is not an important factor for a Christian. The important question is 'Are we ready to Crucify our lusts of power, worldly wishes etc in a daily basis to follow Jesus Christ by nullifying ourselves or not." ( The definition for a Christian) .
Also, in my assumption the Biblical term "Throne" of which lot of
people misunderstand that it is a "Chair- of power", actually not.
This part, each of you can check with your known well versed theologist.
But the important point is please do not deviate from the GOAL and the goal of a Christian is mentioned in Philippians 3 - 7-11 .
Philippians 3 - 7-11
7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of
Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the
surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I
have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ
9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes
from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ-the
righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know
Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing
in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead
Id no 4190
- Dear moderators,
This discussion is progressing in an unhealthy manner. If can, kindly involve anyone of the experts in the subject for eg, like our seminary lecturers or Bishops for a clearer opinion. We the Syrian Orthodox christians in no way can deny the importance of our father St. Peter in our church.