Re: Reply from MJSSA
- Greetings to All
Dear Mr. Baby Maathara, Really appreciate the lengthy reply but would highlight some points
You wrote <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Let us now examine why CD is prepared instead of printing the books.
a). In 2003 MJSSA had got printed 500 copies each of every class, which lasted until 2008. Even if we print 1000 copies of each class, each book will cost Rs.30/-. That means total printing charges are Rs.3.00 lakhs. It took six years to sell out 500 copies. If it is 1000 copies, just calculate how many years it will take to recover the actual expenses. Most of the Parishes never sent details on number of students in each class every year.
b) As of date, nine Sunday schools in Outside Kerala and 12 Sunday schools in Outside India are only affiliated with MJSSA. Out of these, only two from Outside Kerala and four from Outside India approach MJSSA for JSSLC certificate.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Don't you feel this is because of the inefficiency of MJSSA or the lack of vision of its leaders? The lack of coordination between the parishes with its diocese and diocese metropolitans towards the administrators of MJSSA? Over the past years some of the forum members did highlight the lack of vision in dividing the parishes abroad among each and every diocese of Malankara. What Mr. Baby Maathara mentioned is the classic example of what is happening and will continue to happen with the needs of outside Malankara parishes because of this thoughtless division rather than creating "Gulf Diocese", "Europe Diocese", "Greater India Diocese" etc with an approachable Metropolitan/ Patriarchal vicar.
Do the authorities have any idea of the facilities and exposure given by other churches or even the revival/ Pentecostal groups offer for satisfying the needs of the followers especially outside Malankara? We here cry for the "recovery period of the Rs. 3.00lakh spent on Sunday school books". Shame to all of us for the negative approach. We are good for issuing kalpana for people looking for greener pastures in the above "churches" but we don't care to look at the root problem. We are spending lakh's and crore's of rupees for litigation, building newer and newer diocese and its head quarters, celebrating jubilees etc.
Let me confidently say that the contributions of 2009 you mentioned is either incomplete or wrong. Conversely why should they feel to contribute when they don't see much value to it? Why MJSSA with a positive approach didn't build values in its name for all these outside Malankara parishes to feel that it is for their benefit & interest to be part of MJSSA? For it we have to have leaders with vision. For them the size of diocese or organization they are entrusted will not be a concern nor the money required or its pay back period. It is not in the number of diocese or number of metropolitans which will determine the glory of the church. We need to think differently and positively and my prayers are for the same.
Shinu Jesus Abraham
Member ID # 2908
- Dear Baby Sir,
I was on vacation and eventhough I had seen your message in the forum, I was unable to give a reply to your message then.
First of all I really appreciate your initiative to reply to 'clear the doubts' of many people!! Since many parts of your mail directly deals with the items I mentioned in my earlier mail, I feel it is appropriate for me to give once again an answer to your mail, through this forum. Eventhough there are many things to write, I am now mainly concentrating on the part in your message regarding Bahrain St. Peter's parish. I know you were not part of the events which I mentioned in my earlier mail, and the previous General Secretary was in-charge then. It seems to me that somebody wrote answers for you and sent it in your name to the forum, as the reply regarding our church matters contradicts and are far away from truth.
Let me answer to you one by one.
You wrote: "First of all, it should be noted by all that MJSSA functions strictly in line with the decisions taken in its Executive Committee, Central Committee, and General Body and MJSSA constitution. So, it will be appreciable to raise any allegations and get reply on the functioning of the MJSSA in these forums only.
Dear Baby Sir, why MJSSA officials are afraid of the discussion in this forum about the functioning of MJSSA? Please try to understand that MJSSA is NOT ONLY FOR THE PEOPLE OF ITS EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE, CENTRAL COMMITTEE OR GENERAL BODY. It SHOULD function for all the people/children of Malankara/Outside Kerala/Outside India etc. When we are NOT represented in any of these so called bodies, where we will raise our "alleagtions" (as you said) and who cares it, if we sent a letter to the same office bearers who had done some thing wrong, as experienced in our case??
>>You wrote: "1.The cash award from St. Peter's Church, Bahrain was not given as per their demand-
>I am thankful to you for your acknowledgment of our awards. What I mentioned in my previous message is here endorsed by you as well. WITHOUT OUR PRIOR INFORMATION OR APPROVAL, MJSSA ALONE 'DECIDED' TO SPLIT THE AWARD MONEY TO GIVE IT TO 2 STUDENTS!! Who authorised them to do it?? We feel there were several unanswered questions in this saga!! Every year, MJSSA was giving THEIR OWN AWARDS to two (or three??) sutdents who score higher marks in Xth class. That year, we had given the award money for a special purpose (explained it earlier) and why MJSSA choose to split it for two students, without even spending their own regular award money?? Who were these students? Were the second rank holder was related to anyone in MJSSA Office or Executive committee who took that decision (without the then Bishop In-charge)??? Why MJSSA hadn't informed us prior or after the award ceremony about this, until WE ASKED THEM AN EXPLANATION ABOUT IT?? If MJSSA felt that the two students marks difference was narrow, they should take a decision on THEIR OWN AWARD MONEY distribution, and NOT from another Church's special award, given for a special purpose.
> In 2004, Bahrain Parish had given Rs.5000/- to MJSSA for giving to the first rank holder of JSSLC. It was given to the first ranker at the MJSSA General Body meeting. In 2006 also they gave Rs.5000/- to MJSSA. Since there was a narrow difference between the first and second rank holders, MJSSA awarded Rs.3000/- to the first ranker and Rs.2000/- to 2nd ranker keeping in view that it will be more appropriate to reward two students instead of one student alone getting this big amount."
>>I am compelled here to mention that your above statement is NOT FULLY CORRECT, as MJSSA NEVER informed us about their decision prior to award distribution, and we came to know about it from another source after this award distribution and questioned about it to the then officials of MJSSA. Can you provide a copy or atleast the date of your letter sent to us informing this decision by MJSSA, prior to the distribution of the award money?? Again, our decision to provide awards was taken in our "General Body" and not in the "Parish Managing Committee", as you mentioned. Thus, in fact, MJSSA has done something against the wishes of the entire Bahrain Parish members!! Copy of our letter to MJSSA, strongly condemning their action is with us. WE NEVER APPRECIATED MJSSA for their action as you said, but criticised them for it then and there. The letters, minutes of our General Body meeting etc. will be proof of it. After all, when MJSSA had already splitted and distributed that award money without our approval, later what else we can do against it? I still feel it was appropriate to mention this incident in my mail, as we were discussing about the irregularities of MJSSA functioning.
>>You wrote: "When it was informed to the Bahrain Parish, their first reaction was disapproval that MJSSA did not act as per the decision of the Parish Managing Committee, but finally realized that it has benefitted two students, they wrote a letter on 30.6.2006 expressing happiness over the MJSSA's action. Is it correct to write about this closed chapter once again in the internet?
>>">Dear Baby Sir, once again I request you to provide any copy or date of your such letter sent to us!!! THERE WAS NO SUCH INFORMATION SENT TO US FROM MJSSA!!! When there was NO REPLY for our offer from MJSSA FOR MORE THAN ONE YEAR, we asked one of our member who went on leave, to go to MJSSA office and enquire about it personally. Then only we got a 'VERBAL' reply from the then Secretary that 'it will make a havoc in MJSSA if they select a "long serving and deserving" sunday school teacher!!! If MJSSA General Body had earlier taken a decision stopping their own cash award to long serving/deserving teachers, why they haven't informed us about their inability in helping us to find a proper person, and keeping silence for more than ONE YEAR?? If it was conveyed to us when we offered this award, we could have made alternative arrangements for finding a suitable person for this award!!
>You wrote: 2. MJSSA could not find a Best Sunday School Teacher to give cash award of Rs.10,000/- proposed from Bahrain Parish.
> MJSSA used to give cash award to Best Teacher. Unfortunately, this was stopped, due to many obvious reasons and practical difficulties and problems, by the decision of General Body. This was conveyed to the Bahrain Parish. Was it wrong to convey such a message?
>>Dear Baby Sir, you are thoroughly confused!! This is what I suspect somebody else wrote for you and send a reply as it is from you!! As you mentioned, the then General Secretary informed us "verbally" that "it is better to donate that award amount to MJSSA for 'PRINTING THE NEW SYLLABUS' SUNDAY SCHOOL BOOKS, because the old syllabus books were ALREADY OUT OF STOCK, and NOT FOR THE TRANSLATION, as it was completed according to him then. We agreed to this PRINTING OFFER OF NEW SYLLABUS BOOKS, after getting an approval from our General Body, and sent that amount to MJSSA in 2007. However, until now that 'printing' was NOT DONE by MJSSA. Also please note that WE PAID Rs. 10,000/- in 2002 also to MJSSA, through our then Diocesan Bishop, for printing the English text books for the FITST TIME itself, but it was not printed until MJSSA got a full expense sponsorship from an American Church. I mentioned clearly these things in the earlier message as well. We are not such fools to mention that our 2007 amount was used for printing books in 2003!!! Check MJSSA's previous year accounts or correspondences, before making "baseless allegations"(as you mentioned)!!!
>You wrote: "As suggested by the then General Secretary of MJSSA, instead of cash award to the best teacher, they donated Rs.10,000/- towards translation expenses of Sunday School Text Books. It was paid to MJSSA on 22.12.2007. The English Text Books were already printed with the sponsorship of American Diocese in 2003. Then how is it possible that MJSSA got money from Bahrain Parish in 2007 and used that money to print the books in 2003? Baseless allegations!!!"
> You wrote: "In the Gulf countries Sunday school classes start in September."Who given you this wrong information?? It is not a standard pattern as far as I understand. Many GCC countries Sunday School year starting in January. You mentioned that only 12 Sunday Schools from outside India, (Not only the Gulf) affiliated with MJSSA, out of that one must be our Sunday School. As the General Secretary, you must be aware that our Sunday School year starts in January and ends in December and we conduct final exams in December and get JSSLC certificates from you by January/February every year.
>>I think teaching according to the new Syllabus Sunday School books were started in Malankara since 2006 (or 2007??) and still MJSSA couldn't make available English versions of it for others, even after 2/3 years!! This is what most people complained about the carelessness of MJSSA officials for the 'Outside Kerala/India' children/churches.
>>You wrote: "Accordingly, we have prepared CD containing Class 1 to 7. These are now available with MJSSA office at Puthencruz. CD on Class 8 to 10 will be ready by end of the year. Help from Bahrain Parish has been mentioned in preface."
>>I endorse fully the views expressed by Mr. Shinu Jesus Abraham on your reply regarding CD preparation for our Outside Kerala Children, without printing text books. CD preparation is NOT THE SOLUTION!! I feel it is the lack of Vision of our office bearers. You mentioned about the cost recover period of earlier English Text books printed. But you conveniently NOT MENTIONED that those books were printed with the FULL FINANCIAL SUPPORT OF AMERICAN CHURCH, (You never acknowledged our contribution in it) and there was NO COST INVOLVED for MJSSA!!! Then why MJSSA was cost concious about these books printing?? If MJSSA wants to know the number of students in each outside kerala/India churches (Sunday Schools), first of all why can't they coordinate with the respective Diocesan Bishops (I know they are SO MANY!!!) to bring all these schools under the umbrella of MJSSA? Why every other OUTSIDE KERALA/INDIA churches needs to make their own arrangement for English Text books or VBS materials?? Sharjah Church translated the OLD TEXT BOOKS and published it in their website earlier, which was recently once again pointed by one esteemed member. We are asking for the NEW SYLLABUS BOOKS and not the old syllabus, for which we already have English text books.
>You wrote: "Let us now examine why CD is prepared instead of printing the books."
>>While acknowledging the same, I think you didn't mentioned about one another collection done this year, which I witnessed. While I was on leave this time, my parent Sunday School students were bringing a 'coupon of Rs. 10/-' for the MJSSA Fund collection. I dont't know it is for this year only or was collecting every year. Every student bring one book with ten coupon (10 x 10 = Rs. 100/- and count the number of students all over in Malankara) and why this income for MJSSA not included in your income list??
>You wrote: "7. What is MJSSA doing with the collections from Parishes every year and the Budget amount from the Church?
> The major source of income for MJSSA is the offertory on Penticosti Day from each Parishes."
Dear Baby Sir, as you mentioned, all these MJSSA discussions were started when there was an enquiry about "JSVBS materials" in English. However, I am surprised to note that you never mentioned anything about it in your reply mail. Why our MJSSA couldn't make the JSVBS materials in English for the usage of our children? IOC is doing it, Mathomites are doing it. VBS Ministries are doing it. We got resourceful people in our church and why MJSSA couldn't use their service for the ultimate benefit of the children, thus for the future generation of our Church. I hope under your able guidance and leadership, a new vision for MJSSA will be evolved and I pray for your success in implementing it. If my mail hurts you in any way, kindly pardon me as it is unintentional.
Regards & Best wishes,
Chev. Thomas Abraham - Bahrain.
Member Id #879
--- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Baby Maathara wrote:
> Dears in Christ,
> We are proud of the SOCM forum wherein members of the Holy Church are allowed to express their feelings freely. However, some of the comments and allegations of the honorable members of the Forum due to lack of knowledge or understanding of the facts hurt MJSSA, which is the largest and first spiritual organization of the Holy Church. If there is any deficiency or drawback occurred from MJSSA, as a humble servant of MJSSA, please forgive. We feel it necessary to clear all misunderstandings and allegations raised against MJSSA.
- Dear brothers in Christ,
I had already given reply to the allegations raised against MJSSA on this SOCM Forum. I thought that the reply given by me considering the responses as creative suggestions were satisfactory for you.
A patriotic soldier will never dishonour his homeland even though he may have some personal differences. The attitude of a person who has been honoured by the supreme head of the Holy Church as its brave soldier might nit be different from this. However, since Chev. Thomas Abraham have been repeating his allegations against this spiritual organisation of the Holy Church in this forum, I am forced to address this forum once again.
Chev. Thomas Abraham asks
1. �Why MJSSA officials are afraid of the discussion in this forum about the functioning of MJSSA?�
We do not fear any discussion, no matter by whom or where or about what. But, the answer to why we are not interested to discuss is there in your comments itself. How can MJSSA reply to the allegations raised in bodies in which MJSSA is not represented? Like in the case of Bahrain Church, MJSSA can give reply in its bodies only, isn�t it? The reply that I had already given and the reply that I am giving now are testimonials to the fact that we do not have any fear. I take this opportunity to humbly inform you that since I have limitations as the official of an organisation, I am not willing to reply anymore after this through this forum.
2. �MJSSA is NOT ONLY FOR THE PEOPLE OF ITS EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE, CENTRAL COMMITTEE OR GENERAL BODY. It SHOULD function for all the people/children of Malankara/Outside Kerala/Outside India�
MJSSA is an organisation that is working in accordance with a registered constitution. Its aim and objectives are in the constitution. Your suggestion is a great wish of us. In my earlier reply, I had mentioned that we will do our best in this matter and that your co-operation is solicited. But it is quite regretful that you did not mention anything in your reply that you will do something in this regard. Still I repeat my request.
3. �When we are NOT represented in any of these so called bodies, where we will raise our �allegations��
Did you mean that you are saying this in SOCM Forum because there was no other way or stage? In your allegation, you had said that my reply was made written by someone else. That is not fully correct. It was written by me. As I am not a member of SOCM Forum, it was made published through a member of SOCM Forum. This reply is also like that. Likewise you could have made your suggestions through a person who has representation in MJSSA. Otherwise, you should have tried to make representation in MJSSA to those who are not represented.
Besides all these, you may know that MJSSA is a spiritual organisation of the Holy Church. You could have submitted your complaints, suggestions, requests, or opinions to HB Catholicose or to the Holy Synod of the Church. In your eyes, MJSSA officials may be substandard. But it will be good for you to know that we respect and obey the leadership of the Church.
The matters regarding the Bahrain Church are decided and implemented by the Managing Committee and General Body of the church, isn�t so? If there are any complaints about that church, it has to be raised in the above bodies, isn�t it? Or will you raise them in public forums like this? This only is what I said in my earlier reply.
4. The award amount of Bahrain Church.
You have repeated what you said earlier. Therefore I am also repeating my reply. You said that they have never appreciated MJSSA; instead they had condemned our action. I am herewith attaching the letter from the Bahrain Church dated 15.06.2006(received in MJSSA on 30.06.2006) which I had mentioned in my previous reply. Even if you think that MJSSA has not been appreciated in that letter, I repeat that as a person who loves the church, you could have refrained from making such a controversy based on that letter.
5. Rs.10,000/- had been given for printing the English text books.
I had already said that it costs Rs. 30000 to print 1000 copies of the
textbooks for one standard itself. To print textbooks, the number of copies needed must be known, isn�t it? I had already mentioned the number of years taken to sell 500 books of each class. Nobody responded to my reply in this regard. Can you say the number of books needed for each class every year? I said that the English books printed on 2003 were sponsored by the American Diocese as they paid the expenses for the same. I do not think there is any mistake in my earlier reply.
6. Beginning of classes in Gulf region.
When the teachers from Kuwait and Sharjah Sunday Schools came for leave, they contacted MJSSA and said that their classes will start in September and because of that they need the CD of English textbooks by the end of August, before they return. Accordingly we gave them the CD.
7. �We conduct final exams in December and get JSSLC certificates from you by January/February every year.�
Thank God! You have accepted that MJSSA is doing at least this even when you allege that MJSSA is not doing anything for the Sunday school students of outside Kerala/India. We think that the response from you is an appreciation for MJSSA that came from you deep heart unknowingly, when you are determined to condemn MJSSA and not to appreciate it.
You should have realised that we have care for those students as we accept the examination conducted by you and give JSSLC certificates to those students who pass that examination, which is not done by any other organisation in this world.
8. �While I was on leave this time, my parent Sunday School students were bringing a 'coupon of Rs. 10/-' for the MJSSA Fund collection. I don�t know it is for this year only or was collecting every year. Every student bring one book with ten coupon (10 x 10 = Rs. 100/- and count the number ofstudents all over in Malankara) and why this income for MJSSA not included in your income list??�
This is a new allegation based on the incomplete knowledge gained by the Chevalier when he came to Kerala.
I gave the list of those parishes which paid the �Penticosti Kanikka� in my earlier reply to the question asked by you regarding the budget allotment of the Church for MJSSA and the �Penticosti Kanikka�. Because there is no need top publish the income and expenditure accounts of the MJSSA in SOCM Forum, we have not done that and will not do it in the future also.
Since you mentioned about the coupon collection, let me say something on it. Perhaps it may help somebody to show kindness. Mor Baselious Paulose II Catholicose Charitable Fund is a charity fund started by MJSSA in the name of Late Lamented HB Baselious Paulose II Catholicose. From the fund, helps are given to the needy for education, treatment, house construction etc. I had mentioned in my previous reply about the distribution of educational charity organised by the Martha Mariam Samajam of the Dubai Church last year.
To extend the help for more people, it was decided in the 2009 General Body Meeting of MJSSA to raise a fund by conducting a coupon collection of Rs.10 each. Half of the amount collected through this will be utilised for the charity purposes in the Sunday School itself and the other half will be utilised by MJSSA for charity purposes at the Akhila Malankara level. The decision on whether the coupon collection should be conducted every year must be taken by the Annual General Body opf the MJSSA. At present, it has been decided to conduct the coupon collection this year only.
It seems that you have not bought even a single coupon costing Rs.10 from your parent Sunday School. You would have known more details about this if you had enquired about this in that Sunday School.
It is meaningless to say that the dear Chevalier, who tries to see MJSSA with hostility, has not contacted us when he came for leave in Kerala. However, if we had known that you came to Kerala, we would have tried to contact you. Nevertheless these did not happen, we are thankful to you for making an allegation on coupon collection, even though you raised it because of a misunderstanding that happened when you came to Kerala. I got an opportunity to say a few words on the coupon collection and the charity activities of MJSSA. I request other churches, organisations and individuals to develop a kind heart to help and co-operate with the charity activities of MJSSA like the Marthamriam Samajam of Dubai Church has done. You may co-operate only after discussing with the members of the Dubai Church whether our activities were satisfactory or not.
I have to remind those who say MJSSA officials are inactive that there would be nothing to say about those who do nothing and also that mistakes will happen only to those who do at least something. Are MJSSA officials not human beings? Whether it is in family, society or an organisation, those who love them should point out mistakes. The mistakes that can be corrected must be corrected by the officials and if the mistakes cannot be corrected, steps must be taken not to repeat those mistakes. I regretfully remind the Chevalier that he has not suggested any corrective measures, instead he is just making allegations even when I asked him in my earlier reply to forgive mistakes, if any, and to co-operate with us for future endeavours.
MJSSA is an organisation of our Holy Church. There is no need of any
distinction of outside or inside Kerala. Let me assure you that MJSSA is ready to do everything it can if there is any sufficient help and
co-operation from all. I request everybody to abstain from creating
controversies on public stages like this and to inform us directly your suggestions, advices or criticisms. Let me conclude by saying that MJSSA is not interested in further discussions in this forum.
Posted in SOCM by
- Dear Members of the Forum,
It is with a heavy heart I am writing this. When I had gone through the message `Reply from MJSSA' from its General Secretary Mr. Baby Mathara, I think the respected General Secretary had taken my comments about MJSSA functioning as "personal" against him. I made it very clear in my messages that I have nothing against the esteemed Secretary and only pointing out the flaws in the functioning of the MJSSA system, with some supporting matters. In fact I was supporting somebody else on this discussion. I even mentioned that I hope under his present leadership the functioning will be improved for the betterment of the Church. At any time, if he felt that anything I mentioned is personal against him, I apologize for it, as it was not my intention. However, it was unfortunate for him trying to `shoot the person' instead of addressing the issues raised.
Since the latest reply from the General Secretary is not with an intention to address the issues/concerns raised by many members of this forum, such as Sunday School English Text Books Printing, Preparing VBS Materials in English etc. (or at least its willingness), I think there is no point in continuing the discussion on it in this Forum. Other matters I raised where secondary issues only. I consider the lame excuses from MJSSA officials are not up to the point.
I am very well aware that MJSSA is the spiritual organization of the Church and that is why this discussion came up in SOCM Forum for getting their support for making JSVBS English Materials. Unfortunately the same organization or its officials are not at all aware about the existence of this SOCM Forum (where especially the present MJSSA President and most of our Metropolitans and the Catholicate Centre are members), which was created mainly for supporting the Church in the Electronic media, in a great way. When somebody else had pointed out these discussions to MJSSA officials, unfortunately they took the criticism in a negative way, for their own reasons.
Regarding Mr. Baby Mathara's negative derogatory comments about my integrity in Church affairs and my charity supports, I am compelled to mention here that the Secretary should have checked this first with the present President of MJSSA, who is the ex-vicar of Bahrain Parish. He could have checked it even with our Diocesan Bishop or any other Bishops or Priests, who at least once came to Bahrain or to the priests of my parent Parish of Manarcad St. Mary's Cathedral. As Mr. Baby Mathara could be primarily a Sunday School teacher before becoming MJSSA's General Secretary, I am also a Sunday School teacher since 1968, after passing my Sunday School Xth class exam. When the JSVBS discussion came up in SOCM Forum, I honestly felt that I have the right to speak on behalf of my Sunday school children in Bahrain, who suffered due to lack of the English text books and JSVBS English books and materials. It came out now that the discussion in SOCM Forum was a nuisance for MJSSA officials and they are NOT at all willing to address this issues in future even.
As MJSSA officials stand on these issues seems `Take it or Leave it', I also close this subject from my side, and pray God Almighty to help us, the Outside Kerala & India Churches, to find out our own way to address these issues.
Chev. Thomas Abraham Bahrain.
--- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Daniel wrote:
> Dear brothers in Christ,
> I had already given reply to the allegations raised against MJSSA on this SOCM Forum. I thought that the reply given by me considering the responses as creative suggestions were satisfactory for you.
> A patriotic soldier will never dishonour his homeland even though he may have some personal differences. The attitude of a person who has been honoured by the supreme head of the Holy Church as its brave soldier might nit be different from this. However, since Chev. Thomas Abraham have been repeating his allegations against this spiritual organisation of the Holy Church in this forum, I am forced to address this forum once again.