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Re: Peter's Primacy

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  • Leena Mathew
    Dear Rinu Sam, Let me address your reply, points by points:   (1) YOU ARE TALKING AGAINST ORTHODOXY.   I am not talking against Orthodoxy. As a matter of
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 1, 2009
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      Dear Rinu Sam,

      Let me address your reply, points by points:

      (1) YOU ARE TALKING AGAINST ORTHODOXY.

      I am not talking against Orthodoxy. As a matter of fact, I am talking inline with the Orthodoxy. The subsequent points will support my statement.

      (2) THERE IS NO SPECIAL AUTHORITY GIVEN TO ST.PETER BY JESUS CHRIST. JESUS CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF CHURCH (VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE)

      Our Lord founded His Church to carry on the redemptive work. The Church is the extension of Incarnation. Mathew 16: 16-20 explains that the confession of St. Peter that Jesus is the Son of God and Jesus reply to it. This is the beginning of the Christian Church. Thus the administration of the Church was given to Simon Peter by our Lord. Further, in John 21:15, 16, 17 and in the entire book of Acts, the superiority of St. Peter over the other Apostles is clearly mentioned. Please see the points hereunder:

      1. Old Testament is considered as the shadow of New Testament. Deut. 17, in Old Testament emphasizes the significance of High Priests. Thus it is obvious that New Religion - Christianity, which is an offshoot of Judaism, require a Universal Authority to guide its faith and observances.

      2. Jesus is the head of the Church and Church is the body. Nevertheless, we require a physical leader present on earth, who receives the authority from our Lord Himself to guide its flocks.

      3. When Abram was called by God to become the Father of many Nations, God changed his name to Abraham (Gen.17:5-8). Similarly, when Jesus selected Simon to lead and guide His people, as mentioned in John.1:42; He changed his name to Kepha (Peter) - rock. When you are constructing a bridge across the river, if the foundation is touching hard rock underneath, the bridge can sustain any heavy impact on the bridge. Similarly when Jesus made the Church, He wants it to sustain all the troubles and tribulations, till he return to earth to receive the Church - the Bride. So He made its foundation deep until that hard rock � Kepha, whom He discovered among the 12 Apostles (Mathew16:15-19). Even in one of His parables, Jesus reemphasized the significance of constructing the foundation of a building on hard rock (Mathew 7:24-27 and Luke 6:47-49).

      4. Jesus gave St. Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Mathew 16:19). In Revelation 1:18, Jesus says that He has the keys of the death and the world of the dead. In Hebrew tradition keys represent authority. If the head of a house, handover the key of his house to one of his friends, that friend will be responsible of the house till the owner comes back. Thus the authority over Jesus's Church was given to St. Peter and His descendants till Jesus comes back. Since, Jesus gave His key only to St. Peter, none other than St. Peter or his descendants can claim it - Universal Leadership of the Church.

      5. John.21:15-17. After resurrection in front of other disciples Jesus ask St. Peter to take care of His whole flock.

      6. Acts 12 gives the prominence to St. Peter.

      7. Mathew 10:2, Mark3:16, Luke6:14, Acts. 1:13. the name of St. Peter is mentioned first among the Apostles, because He was the visible head of Jesus flocks after his ascension.

      8. St. Peter was the first Apostles to do a miracle. Acts 3.

      9. Acts.2. St Peter was the first to speak to Israelites. 3000 people repented and were baptized and added to the church.

      10. Acts.10. St Peter is the one who spoke to gentiles and added Cornelius, his family and friends to the Church.

      11. Acts 1. St Peter was the chair person and he was only one who spoke in the meeting that was conducted to appoint one in place of Judas Iscariot. Others agreed with his decision.

      12. Acts. 15. In Jerusalem Synod Peter's words were final and others including James agreed to it.

      13. It was St. Peter who passed the judgment on Anannias and Saphira.

      Thus we can see that St. Peter and St. Peter alone was working as the Head of ecclesiastical, administrative, legal, and judicial matters of the Church. All the other disciples agreed to him and thus the Church grew up.

      (3) READ ACTS OF APOSTLES CHAPTER 13 :1-3 WHEREBY YOU SEE THAT SAUL(ST.PAUL) AND BARNABAS WERE ORDAINED BY CERTAIN PROPHETS AND TEACHERS,SIMEON WHO WAS CALLED NIGER,LUCIAS OF CYRENE AND MANAEN WHO WAS RAISED WITH HEROD ANTIPAS

      Please read the previous chapter. Ironically, the whole Acts Chapter 12 is mentioning the miraculous deliverance of St. Peter from prison. Further in Acts 12:25, it is mentioned that Barnabas and Saul went to their headquarters at Antioch after completing their mission in Jerusalem. At �Antioch, Simeon Niger, Lucias,Manaen, Barnabas, Saul and others fasted and prayed to guide them by the Holy Spirit. They placed their hands on Barnabas and Saul and sent them for missionary work. The people who kept their hands must be blessed by St. Peter and authorized to bless others, since he was decorating the Throne of Antioch then.

      Besides, let me mention two more points which highlights the significance of Antioch:
      Acts 11:26; mention that we got our name as Christians FIRST in Antioch.
      Acts 14:26; mention that they Barnabas and Seoul were sent from Antioch for their work. This shows that Antioch was their headquarters.

      (4) ST.PETER REMINDS HIS FLOCK THE TEACHINGS OF ST. PAUL. (1 PETER 3:15)

      Here St. Peter says that if anyone asks the explanation of the hope of your faith you should be ready to answer them with gentleness and respect.

      In the aforementioned statement of St. Peter, there was no reference of St. Paul.

      (5) IN THE HOLY QURBANA BEFORE THE EVENGELION WE ALSO SING THAT "PAULOSE SLEEHA DHANYAN CHOLKATTE NITHEVAM"...

      The above song says- ningale gnangalareechathozhi not ngan ariyichathozhi

      (6) IN 4TH THUBDHEN WE RECITE THAT "SLEEHANMARIAL THALAVANMARAYA UNNATHAPETTA MAR PATHROSENAYUM, MAR PAULOSINEYUM. ....

      In 4th Thubdhen we recite that "sleehanmarial thalavanmaraya unnathapetta mar pathrosenayum, mar paulosineyum. It says sleehanmaril thalavanmaraya not the thalavan of the church. You cannot show one incident in the whole Bible St. Paul disobeying St. Peter. On the other hand in everything he takes the advice of St. Peter and obeys him (Acts.15).

      (7) ANOTHER THING IS THAT IN THE EARLY CHURCH,THERE WERE FOUR PARTRIARCHS: ALEXANDRIA,ROME, CONSTANTIPOLE, AND ANTIOCH. ALL ARE THE SAME POSITION AND EQUAL. IN THUBDEN(DIPTYCHS) WE ALSO PROCLAIM "ENNUM EE AUYSKALTHUM. ...NALU BHAGANGALILULLA DAIVATHINTE VISHUDHA SABHAYE( THE HOLY CHURCHES OF GOD IN THE FOUR QUARTERS OF THE EARTH):

      In AD 37, St Peter went to Antioch and established his thrown there. Even we got our name Christain in Antioch. In AD 60, before he started his missionary journey, consecrated Evodius and Ignatius and appointed them as his successors in Antioch. Evodius in charge of Christians from gentiles and Ignatius for Christians from Jews.
      In AD 61, he consecrated St Mark and sent him to Alexandria. In AD 67, before he was crucified he consecrated Lenos and Anaclathos in Rome.

      Even Pope Benedict XVI in his comments on Syriac Poet-Theologian, St. Ephrem in Vathican city on Nov.28, 2007, has acknowledged that the root of Christianity is in the Semetic world.

      Now let me mention the quotation from our first Thubathen (which you quoted in your reply.)
      "Ennum Ee Auyskalthum. ...Nalu bhagangalilulla daivathinte Vishudha sabhaye”.

      It means that our church is Catholicam (Universal) - it is spread all over the world and our Patriarch in Antioch is the Supreme Head of our Church.

      (8) THE EXCOMMUNICATION OF IOC SYNOD IS DONE BY THE H.H PARTRIRACH AND WE LEAVE THAT TO HIM OR TO HIS SUCCESSOR AND LAITY SHOULD NOT DRAG THE ISSUE TO THIS FORUM OR INTERPRET IT ANOTHER WAY.

      The excommunication done by our Patriarch who is our Supreme Head.

      A) We cannot disobey him by simply Leave that to him.
      B) We can not HOLD obeying our Patriarch, until His successor assumes the throne in future. Since we are obedient, disciplined spiritual children of the Church are bound to obey His Kalpanas PROMPTLY.
      C) This forum is for the obedient, disciplined spiritual children of the Church under the leadership of the Patriarch of Antioch for their open discussion.
      D) All the Kalpanas of the Patriarch of Antioch are for all the members of the Church- irrespective they are Clergy or Laity (Almayar).

      With prayers,
      Leena,
      4136
    • Rinu Sam
      Dear Leena Mathew I do not want spend time for argument. Acts of Apostle,the book is mainly dealing with mission work of St.Paul and St.Peter equally in the
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 2, 2009
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        Dear Leena Mathew

        I do not want spend time for argument. Acts of Apostle,the book is mainly dealing with mission work of St.Paul and St.Peter equally in the early church. There is nothing in Acts of Apostles supporting the supremecy of St.Peter in Church Of Christ. The New israel (Church) came into existence With Jesus Christ who is the High Priest like(in the order of) Melchizadek. He Jesus sent his apostles as Ambassidors Of Christ. Apostolic ministry is reconciliation. Jesus Christ gave the apostles ministry of reconciliation to all his disciples Being ambassadors for Christ,we implore you on christs behalf be reconciled to God(2 Corinth5;16-20) Where is this reconciliation?

        Jesus Gave his Authority to 12 Disciples not to St.Peter alone, read Luke 9:1-2.again Read Mathew28:18-20.

        Jesus also sent 70 emissaries for mission work with authority.(Luke
        10:1-10)

        The First synod in Jerusalem was presided By St.James and not St.Peter
        although Peter adressed the synod on faith issues(acts.15)
        Read Galatians 2:11-14 whereby St.Paul rebuked st.Peter at Antioch,How come this when you claim St.Pter is the Supreme head of Visible church.He is the Leader of Disciples before and after Pentacost.

        How Paul beame an apostle (read Galat 1:11-19)Here no mention of St.Peter or other disciples.

        Antioch was a Business centre/town with jews and Gentiles as populated
        city. The name Christians were got from Antioch after the Conversion of Saul(St.Paul)It was the church in Jerusalem who organised to bring/send Saul to Antioch(Acts11:25-26)After Saul (st.Paul worked there in Antioch for about an year then followers of Christ were known/called as Christians.It is clear that the name Christian is not because Of St.Peter's work alone but because of other disciples work too in Antioch.

        Throne In Antoch, I cannot agree to your wording " throne establishment" as the truth is St Peter preached gospel there in Antioch and established church there.Jesus promised throne of Judgement to his 12 discipleles on his second coming and in heaven there are 24 thrones of Elders(mathew19:28 and Rev 4:10)
        Jesus told Pilate that his Kingdom is not here on earth.How Come Then we(SOC) Claim throne of St.Peter in Antioch, and IOC claim throne of St.Thomas in India?.Also refer to St.Paul's teaching 1Corinth 10-17 regarding the divisions in early church.
        The Holy City of God is mentioned in Revelation 21:10-27). The Wall of Holy city is built upon 12 Apostles(Revel 21:15)
        Judaism was Governed by Law And God gave the law through Moses.
        St.Peter was not like Moses as he Moses was the Deliverer of Israel from Eagypt.Read epistle of 1. Peter 5:1,I whom a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ.....here St.Peter claim himself as a fellow elder

        On Pentacost day All 12 disciples spoke in different languges by the power of holy spirit(acts2:1-13). when the Different nations of jews gathered there/multitude who mocked at the disciples as drunkards then St.Peter presided and addressed the gathering.(acts2:14-42)
        The keys of Heaven were given To Simon Peter:-
        you are taking it literally. Keys of heaven means to become citizens of heaven.for a person to become citizen of heaven to become disciple of christ/become child of God, through baptism.This why Jesus told his apostles to go and preach everywhere, to all people, all nations and teach them obey everything tha the( jesus) commanded to his disciples.The Risen christ first appeared to Mary Magdalene and she was the one who gave news of resuurection to Simon Peter and others.

        what I mentioned earlier was from 2Peter3:15 "Look in our Lord's patience as the oppertunity he is giving you to be saved just as our dear brother Paul wrote you using the wisdom that God give him....."

        No councils/synod were held in Antioch or none of antioch Partriarch
        presided any first three councils/synods of early church.

        I take this oppertunity to thank you all and urge you people to read Orthox Study Bible to know about orthodoxy rather than contradicting the early church traditions.

        with Prayers
        Rinu Sam
        ID#4038

        --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Leena Mathew wrote:
        >
        > Dear Rinu Sam,
        >
        > Let me address your reply, points by points:
        >  
        > (1) YOU ARE TALKING AGAINST ORTHODOXY.
        >  
        > I am not talking against Orthodoxy. As a matter of fact, I am talking inline with the Orthodoxy. The subsequent points will support my statement.
        >  
        > (2) THERE IS NO SPECIAL AUTHORITY GIVEN TO ST.PETER BY JESUS CHRIST. JESUS CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF CHURCH (VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE)
        >  
      • Sajy Thannikkottu
        I am afraid there are misunderstanding. Acts 15 is talking about allowing uncircumcised Gentiles to enter the church. Peter was a major figure in this
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 2, 2009
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          I am afraid there are misunderstanding. Acts 15 is talking about allowing uncircumcised Gentiles to enter the church. Peter was a major figure in this controversy with James leading the council. The decision of the council was to allow gentiles and set aside circumcision. However, some conditions remained, including abstaining from eating blood.

          Galatians 2 clearly shows Paul rebuking Peter

          2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he had clearly done wrong. 2:12 Until certain people came from James, he had been eating with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he stopped doing this and separated himself because he was afraid of those who were pro-circumcision. 2:13 And the rest of the Jews also joined with him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray with them by their hypocrisy. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not behaving consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "If you, although you are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you try to force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

          2:15 We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, 2:16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. 2:17 But if while seeking to be justified in Christ we ourselves have also been found to be sinners, is Christ then one who encourages sin? Absolutely not! 2:18 But if I build up again those things I once destroyed, I demonstrate that I am one who breaks God's law. 2:19 For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God. 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not set aside God's grace, because if righteousness could come through the law, then Christ died for nothing!

          I also would like to inform you that Oriental Orthodox churches are in full communion. As of my knowledge members of Oriental Orthodox churches are

          1. The Armenian Apostolic Church of All Armenians - traces its origins to the missions of Apostles Bartholomew and Thaddeus in the 1st century

          2. The Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria - traces its origins to St.Mark 1st century

          3. The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church - The Ethiopian Church claims its Philip the Evangelist (Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 8)

          4. The Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church - The progenitor of the Eritrean Orthodox Church; the Ethiopian Church, claims its origins from Philip the Evangelist (Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 8)

          5. The Syriac Orthodox Church - traces its origins to St.Peter 1st century

          6. The Indian (Malankara) Orthodox Syrian Church - traces its origins to St.Thomas 1st century

          So even if Indian Orthodox Church is an excommunicated group according to Malankara Jacobite faithful, it is in full communion with SOC

          Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
          # 2912
        • Benny
          Dear All. Each of the deciples are considered as the head of 12 Tribes , They all sacrificed for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. God s verses whatever
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 4, 2009
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            Dear All.

            Each of the deciples are considered as the head of 12 Tribes , They all sacrificed for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. God's verses whatever mentioned in the Holy Bible are true and perfect and there is no point in finding fault with our human brain( It is true that , our brains are very limited). Who is supreme or who is not is not an important factor for a Christian. The important question is 'Are we ready to Crucify our lusts of power, worldly wishes etc in a daily basis to follow Jesus Christ by nullifying ourselves or not." ( The definition for a Christian) .

            Also, in my assumption the Biblical term "Throne" of which lot of
            people misunderstand that it is a "Chair- of power", actually not.
            This part, each of you can check with your known well versed theologist.

            But the important point is please do not deviate from the GOAL and the goal of a Christian is mentioned in Philippians 3 - 7-11 .

            Philippians 3 - 7-11

            7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of
            Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the
            surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I
            have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ
            9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes
            from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ-the
            righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know
            Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing
            in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead

            Thanks..
            Benny
            Id no 4190
          • Anoop Mani
            Dear moderators, This discussion is progressing in an unhealthy manner. If can, kindly involve anyone of the experts in the subject for eg, like our seminary
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 5, 2009
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              Dear moderators,

              This discussion is progressing in an unhealthy manner. If can, kindly involve anyone of the experts in the subject for eg, like our seminary lecturers or Bishops for a clearer opinion. We the Syrian Orthodox christians in no way can deny the importance of our father St. Peter in our church.

              Anoop
              #4037
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