Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

IOC and Indian Partiarchate

Expand Messages
  • J M Paul
    Dear All It is interesting to read the editorial of the April 2009 issue of Malankara Sabha Masika of IOC which argues the Devalokam Catholica should also be
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 28, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear All

      It is interesting to read the editorial of the April 2009 issue of Malankara Sabha Masika of IOC which argues the Devalokam Catholica should also be called as �Indian Patriyarkees� along with the title of �Malankara Methrapolitha� and �Catholicose of the East�. As I have studied Politics and International Relations that explains if one post(name) is mentioned with larger territory then there is no need to mention any other headship of the small area which comes under his/her jurisdiction. That means when Indian Prime Minister�s name is mentioned then there is no need to express his name with any of the Indian state. However, I think IOC needs such representation otherwise their Catholica wouldn�t be a �real� catholica. As per their claim, Catholicose of the East represents all of the Eastern part from Iraq(????), Indian Patriyarkees represents India, and Malankra Methrapolitha represents Kerala(A big thamasa). And now it is very clear that IOC is truly following the Supreme Court verdict of 1995 in which the Court categorically stated that �parishudha� and �throne of St. Thomas� are ceremonial names. Now in their ceremonial heads category one more name would be added.

      But my doubt is that throughout the years from the introduction of the
      Catholicate in 1912, IOC leadership had been preaching that Catholica is equal to Patriyarkeese and that is one of the major contention between the IOC and SOC then why such fuss about the Patriyarchate now??

      Importantly this new initiative would help the Malankara Sabha separate into two; IOC and SOC because as per the IOC claim Malankara Sabha(IOC & SOC) is a single entity. As per their constitution and canon IOC is part of the larger SOC. While by the new initiative two patriarchate would not be possible in a larger SOC. So IOC could be emerged as a single, independent and separated church from the SOC.

      J M Paul
      #1040
    • Mathew G M
      There is a tendency among some Jacobite faithful to find fault with everything the IOC does. When one indiscriminately criticizes another, the validity of even
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 29, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        There is a tendency among some Jacobite faithful to find fault with everything the IOC does. When one indiscriminately criticizes another, the validity of even genuine criticism is lost.

        There is no harm if IOC head wants to assume a new title. And there is no problem with a church head having multiple titles. For example look at the title of the Pope, the head of the Roman Catholic Church from their official TV Channel EWTN's website:
        http://www.ewtn.com/jp2/papal3/titles.htm

        - Bishop Of Rome
        - Archbishop And Metropolitan Of The Roman Province;
        - Patriarch Of The West;
        - Supreme Pontiff Of The Universal Church

        Here you can see Benedict the 16th is the BISHOP of Rome, The ARCHBISHOP and METROPOLITAN of Roman Provinces, The PATRIARCH of the West and the SUPREME PONTIFF of the Universal Roman Catholic Church.

        So if H.H Baselious Didymos I wants to use all the following titles, let him.
        - Patriarch of India
        - Catholicose of the East
        - Metropolitan of Malankara
        - Bishop of Kottayam


        Look at the title of H.B Baselious Thomas I

        - CATHOLICOSE of India
        - METROPOLITAN Trustee of Jacobite Syrian Church
        - BISHOP of Angamaly Diocese

        Again, if the IOC wants to remain in the faith of the three ecumenical councils, and be completely independent of the Patriarch of Antioch, then we should be glad for them and let them be what they want to be and accept them as a Sister church.

        Our only request to them should be those of us who want to remain in full union with the Patriarch of Antioch and retain the historical relationship, should be allowed to do so, and parishes where the majority wish to be so should be allowed to do so with no hindrances of court cases.

        Let us give respect and then expect them to respect us back.

        In Christ,
        Mathew G M
        # 0929


        --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, J M Paul wrote:
        >
        > Dear All
        >
        > It is interesting to read the editorial of the April 2009 issue of Malankara Sabha Masika of IOC which argues the Devalokam Catholica should also be called as "Indian Patriyarkees" along with the title of "Malankara Methrapolitha" and `Catholicose of the East".
      • Arun
        There is a very validated comment, I have seen since I became a member of this forum. We do not need to worry about what the IOC doing as their internal
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 30, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          There is a very validated comment, I have seen since I became a member of this forum. We do not need to worry about what the IOC doing as their internal affairs. We have to be alert  with they dont mess up with our parishes and its properties through the third rated tactics of encouraging the priests and bishops for cross-factioning as well as the fundamental rights of our constitution given as the right of an Indian citizen to believe in any religion  and keep the faith towards a spiritual leader and his spiritual supremacy.   

          Arun
          4162
        • Cijoy Varghese
          DEAR SIR We should ask universal Church to create legal &  Apastolic Indian Patriach under holy throne of PETER. Pope has several Patriach under him so can
          Message 4 of 13 , May 1, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            DEAR SIR

            We should ask universal Church to create legal &  Apastolic Indian Patriach under holy throne of PETER. Pope has several Patriach under him so can Patriach of Antioch.

            Cijoy Varghese
            4067
          • Philip Abraham
            Dear Mr. Mathew G M, I congratulate you for your mature, broad minded and hate-free message. You certainly have the Love of Christ within you. May God
            Message 5 of 13 , May 1, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Mr. Mathew G M,

              I congratulate you for your mature, broad minded and 'hate-free' message. You certainly have the "Love of Christ" within you. "May God Bless you."

              Regards,
              Philip Abraham,
              Saudi Arabia.
              ID No.4097
            • Issac K Joseph
              Dear Philip Please go through your owns words in different Indian orthodox Church Pvt Ltd company internet forums and judge yourself who is spreading hate
              Message 6 of 13 , May 3, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Philip

                Please go through your owns words in different "Indian orthodox Church Pvt Ltd company" internet forums and judge yourself who is spreading 'hate' messages.

                Quote

                1. Any person with common sense can know the malevolent motive behind
                the crafty `claims' advertisement of the `Puthen Kurish Society'
                over the Seminary...

                2. Indeed even the Crow can fly up-side down (Kakka malannu parakkum)
                when there are crafty administrators. What more can one expect when
                there are amateurish leaderships both at the `Puthen- Kurish Society'...

                3. 2) Nowhere in the world does the Patriarch experience such Pomp
                & glory as in India; leave alone his home country, where the so-
                called "Prince" Patriarch's very existence is not known to all. (We
                have a large group of Syrians working with us here in the Middle
                East. I had changed a lot in my views and opinions after getting to
                know them very closely, the so called "praised Seemakar", whom the
                innocent Kerala folks to this day consider as something mystical that
                they see once in a while- "Kandillae nalla poovam pazham polae veluthu
                erikunathu")....

                Unquote

                In Christ
                Issac K Joseph
                0917

                --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Philip Abraham wrote:
                >
                > Dear Mr. Mathew G M,
                >
                > I congratulate you for your mature, broad minded and 'hate-free' message. You certainly have the "Love of Christ" within you. "May God Bless you."
                >
                > Regards,
                > Philip Abraham,
                > Saudi Arabia.
                > ID No.4097
                >
              • Kochumon Mannicherry
                Dear Cijoy In best of my knowledge its against the canon law. Patriarchs are equal so its impossible to create a Patriarchate within a patriarchate. As they
                Message 7 of 13 , May 3, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Cijoy

                  In best of my knowledge its against the canon law. Patriarchs are equal so its impossible to create a Patriarchate within a patriarchate. As they are equal in all right how will it work I don't know. The only exception is the fifth patriarch (metropolitan of Jerusalem) but these positions were created by general synod n such things exist now so who have the authority to create new patriarchate now I don think any one. We cannot follow catholic theory in this matter catholic concept change time to time for example they add many new concept(many of them controversial) in to faith. If we carry on lie that then we will not be Orthodox anymore. At the end of the day what difference it make? If we not satisfied under catholicose we will never going to be satisfied under a new Indian patriarch either. What matters is following the real faith not mere imitation of what some one else do? Indian church survived catholic persecution and Anglican invasion with out an Indian Catholicose or Patriarchate so what malankara church gained by having catholicose personally I believe it made us look unchristian power crazy people in front of others nothing more. Be humble is the best way to be true Christian not having thrones and wealth. We did not have the wealth we have before, but our church members were true Christians then. Now we don't care where the money coming from but as long its money we accept it and the person who give it regardless how he made it get all the importance. Who need the widow's penny?

                  Kochumon Mannicherry
                  1019

                  --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Cijoy Varghese wrote:
                  >
                  > DEAR SIR
                  >
                  > We should ask universal Church to create legal &  Apastolic Indian Patriach under holy throne of PETER. Pope has several Patriach under him so can Patriach of Antioch.
                  >
                  > Cijoy Varghese
                  > 4067
                  >
                • Arun Mathew
                  Mr. Joseph, I read the articles related to this topic and I would like to suggest that we, the Syrian Orhtodox Church members doesn t need to worry about
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 5, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Mr. Joseph,

                    I read the articles related to this topic and I would like to suggest that we, the Syrian Orhtodox Church members doesn't need to worry about the internal affairs of Indian Orthodox church and its honourable Catholicose. If they decided to give their leader the title of Patriarch, Pope, Marpapa or whatever it is, we dont need to criticize that, since thats their internal matter and the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church doesn't have anything to do with it.I dont know how many church leaders reading the discussions in this forum, but if anyone reading it, let them make the smart decisions and be alert that the IOC is not going to mess up with our parishes and its property any more. Simultaniously, hire some intelligent attorneys and get our parishes and its properties thorugh the legal way. We do not need to respond to the same way as some of the Indian Orthodox Members commenting about us and our leadership.

                    Because majority of that church members doesn't have any interest in church issues since they all know that they doing unfair. As they said, we just agree that we are PUTHEN KURISHU SOCIEITY and we are happy with that and they dont need to worry about that either. The Great Sree Narayana Guru worshipped the diety of Lord Siva and when he was criticized, he responded that he was worshipping Ezhava Siva. The truth is that today is ours and tomorrow is ours too.Our primary responsibility is to expand our church in the new horizons and make it as at least the second largest church in Kerala within the next couple of decades. Church leadership has the responsibility to consult the lawyers and find ways to prevent the cross-factioning of priests and how to legally face it if such an incident happen in the future as well as how to keep our property with us in the future occasions.
                     
                    Arun Mathew
                    4162
                  • Philip Abraham
                    Dear Issac, Thank you for the Rejoinder. Indeed, Mr. Mathew G.M. has the `Laissez-faire mentality . Not all can have it. That needs to be appreciated and
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 6, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Issac,
                      Thank you for the Rejoinder.
                      Indeed, Mr. Mathew G.M. has the `Laissez-faire mentality'. Not all can have it. That needs to be appreciated and that's why I went-out to congratulate him.

                      No offence please.

                      Regards,
                      Philip Abraham,
                      Saudi Arabia.
                      ID No.4097
                    • J M Paul
                      Dear Philip Mathew, It should not be considered as a Laissez-faire mentality of Mr. Mathew, but to be considered as the real picture of the intention of the
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 10, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Philip Mathew,

                        It should not be considered as a"Laissez-faire mentality' of Mr. Mathew, but to be considered as the real picture of the intention of the IOCians. You and other IOCians do have "fuedal mentality' that whatever you people think are the correct version as you always criticise Patriarch of Antioc and HB Thomas I Catholica while talking about "unity and Peace in Orthodox communion'. If you are a true cristian then you should apreciate and respect other church's leaders instead of speading venom against them. First you must teach the IOC leaders about the true version of the Cristianity(love others as you do yourself) then to interpret others view about the church matters
                        J M Paul
                        #1040
                      • Cijoy Varghese
                        Dear sir Thanks for response, Could you explain about Jadiku Thalavan, Arkodian, Malankara Matran which existed in our church . I read in one autobiography of
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 18, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear sir

                          Thanks for response,

                          Could you explain about Jadiku Thalavan, Arkodian, Malankara Matran which existed in our church .

                          I read in one autobiography of St. Eldo Mor Baselious of Kodamangalam that saint was Catholicose of East & he came in that capacity in response to a letter addressed to him in that capacity & not as a representative of holy throne. Could someone explain?

                          I believe that our church is a free independent & national church with Indian outlook from the time of Saint Thomas till now. If it is not true please correct me this is just a mail from a young member of church who likes to know more about and discuss about church I belong to.

                          I would also like to know if our Vettickal seminary library allows non students, members of our Church to use the library

                          Cijoy Varghese
                          4067
                        • Paul Joshy
                          Dear Cijoy, Could you give from which source you got such information about Mor Baselious? And it seems the knowledge you derived are from those who falsify
                          Message 12 of 13 , May 20, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Cijoy,

                            Could you give from which source you got such information about Mor
                            Baselious?

                            And it seems the knowledge you derived are from those who falsify the facts for the convenient of misinterpreting history in their favour. Now a days IOC has been trying to portray pre-1912 saints who come from Antioc are theirs and teach that they had come to malankara independently and not by the interest of the Patriarch of Antioc. (See the statement made by Konat Achan during the Asianet debate on Thrikkunnathu seminary incident). This new realization was seemed to prove(though falsely) three things; firstly, the current IOC Catholica has natural lineage to the ancient Catholicose of the East/Mafrianate which was under the Patriarch of Antioc, that abolished in 1860 and revived in 1912 and the current Kottayam Catholica is the natural and real Catholica of the East who has direct, not subordinate, relationship with the Patriarch of Antioc; secondly, Catholicose of the East/Mafrianate had been working independently and had no hierarchical relationship with the Patriarch; and thirdly, the actual relationship of Malankara with Antioc got established only with the visit of Patriarch H H Pathrose III in 1876, the first Patriarch visited Malankara.

                            The new revelation is another Geebelsian strategy of the IOCian�s.

                            And the titles like Jadiku Thalavan, Arkodian, Malankara Matran are being used by the regional head of the Syrian Church(SOC or Jacobites) in Malankara from time to time. When Mor Abdul Jalleel Greegorious visited Malankara in 1665 he abolished the titles Jadiku Thalavan and Arkodian and enthroned it as Marthoma Methran and lately the bishop of Malankara Archdiocese is named as Malankara Methrapolitha and finally it became as Catholica, though Malankara Methrapolitha is still using by Orthodox and Jacobites (Metropolitan Trusty) because the bishop who holds that name are only entitled to control the financial matters of the church which was proclaimed by the Royal Court of Travancore.

                            J. M. Paul
                            #1040
                          • Cijoy Varghese
                            Dear sir I got this information from “Visuda Eldo Mar Baselious Bavayude Jevacharitram” published by K. V Varghese, K.G books, Pandalam, purchased from
                            Message 13 of 13 , May 24, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear sir
                              I got this information from �Visuda Eldo Mar Baselious Bavayude Jevacharitram� published by K. V Varghese, K.G books, Pandalam, purchased from Kothamangalam Kochupally bookstall

                              Cijoy Varghese
                              4067

                              --- On Wed, 20/5/09, Paul@... <Paul@...> wrote:
                              Dear Cijoy,

                              Could you give from which source you got such information about Mor
                              Baselious?
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.