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Re. Apostolic Church (Reply to Fr, K.K. John & Mr. Thomas P) Part 1

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  • Paul Philipose
    Dear Fr. KK John, Thomas and others, I read your reply and thanks for it. You raised many points. First I thought I should not reply to it, because my first
    Message 1 of 1502 , Nov 5, 2002
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      Dear Fr. KK John, Thomas and others,

      I read your reply and thanks for it. You raised many points. First
      I thought I should not reply to it, because my first letter was
      enough for a person to think and decide where they stand in the
      church. Besides if I say something unpleasant, I will be doing a sin
      because of some people outside the church, and I did not want to
      commit it. Then I thought I have to defend my LORD's bride because
      that is my duty. I was thinking `what I should say.' I don't want to
      hurt you or offend you in any way. I beg your forgiveness for that if
      I do so. But I have to reply. I started thinking what could have
      prompted a priest to reply to me.

      I came up with three reasons:

      1) To justify that your church is the correct one.
      2) To rationalize your "faith"
      3) To prove that "Jacobite" church is not the correct one.

      First my views on this, then I will address some issues you have
      raised.

      1) To justify your church is correct in its position.

      You have used quotes from St. Ignatius and St. Severus. You have
      exhorted us to follow his model. Have they preached that every
      apostle of Christ has established a See? Have they disobeyed their
      church? Have they worked against the canon? Have they taken an oath
      in God's name and then broken it? Have they tried to close the church
      of the true faithful? Actually the church is catholic (universal),
      apostolic and holy (Orthodox). Just because some one has named a
      church "orthodox" that church will not become orthodox. Orthodox
      means holy. Read my original article and judge yourself if your
      church is holy? If so, my understanding of holiness is totally
      different from yours. Why quote bishops when holy church has canon,
      which you are not obeying? The church fathers decided under the
      guidance of the Holy Spirit that there are only 4 Sees. Was the Holy
      Spirit not aware of the fact that there was a church in malankara
      too? Do you think the Holy Sprit suddenly remembered in 1965 that
      there was a Malankara church?

      Let me quote St. Chrysostom in his third homily on Penance, speaking
      of Peter thus "Peter himself the chief of the Apostles, the first in
      church." "and when I remember Peter, I name that unbroken rock, that
      firm foundation, the great Apostles the first of the
      disciples". "After so great an evil (The denial) He again entrusted
      to his hand the primacy over universal Church".

      Eusebius (AD 324) in this Chronicle (2:150) writes: "The Apostle
      Peter when he had first founded the Church of Antioch set out for the
      city of Rome and there preaches the Gospel... He Peter besides the
      Church of Antioch"

      I can quote many more. But this is enough. It does not matter if
      Apostle Peter is the head of the church, I will accept who ever it
      may be. As long as it is a church established by Jesus Christ and is
      guided by Holy Spirit, I will be in that church. Is your church the
      correct one? You have said that proof is not required. Only faith is
      enough. No Father, faith alone is not enough. That was the argument
      of Luther (which I have quoted at the end). Because your decision is
      emotional and all proofs are against you, you are saying no proof is
      required.

      2) To rationalize your own faith:

      I don't know how you ended up in the wrong faith. When you read my
      article you might have felt guilty. Every sin is associated with
      justification. Even a killer has justification for his sins. But we
      know it is not rational. People who don't observe lent have an excuse
      too. Even homosexual, divorcee, those that deny priesthood and
      confession, all have a root cause to justify it and there is always a
      Bible evidence to prove it. Giebels believed that repeating a lie
      1000 times would make it the truth. Yes, may be among human beings it
      is true, but not in front of God. You said that you need no proof and
      only faith to believe in the See of Thomas.

      Because it is a feeling or emotion, 99% chance is that you are
      wrong. In DC when the sniper was out loose, people were afraid to go
      out for the fear of dying. The chance of dying there was 1 in 2
      million or so (or .0000005%). Here your probability of being wrong
      is 99%. (I have quoted why that is, at the end). But still you have
      decided to be on the wrong side. Is that emotion or false pride? Do
      you know you are also the descendants of the fathers who went to
      Koonan Cross and took this oath: "I and my sons for generations will
      be loyal to church of Antioch." And are you loyal now? Did you
      respect your Forefathers?

      3) To prove that Jacobite church is not the correct one, and in that
      process to take away the faithful from the church, by deceiving them.
      There are lots of people who think that both are somewhat the same.
      There is no doubt that the Jacobite church is the true one. The
      argument here is if your church is true one or not. Now by stating
      your "Catholicos" church is on par with Lord's church, you are trying
      the trick of Confusion. Who is the one doing all this? Who is the
      master of confusion and lies and deception? Who closes the churches
      and challenge the church? Has your bishop Mor Nicholavas obeyed his
      head of the church? I have heard him taking oath that he has no
      relationship with "Catholicos faction" after Holy Qurbana in front of
      the faithful in God's house. He broke that oath and when that
      happened, you have accepted him as your bishop. I also heard that he
      claimed "He returned to the church he was born". So as per your
      bishop we have two churches. One he was born and other he deceived.
      But Jesus said He has only one church. In any case your 'church'
      challenges the Lord's church and your "catholicos" broke his oath.
      Your bishops filed so many cases (365 of them, so that we could go to
      the court every day of the year) to close our church and now you have
      a bishop who also broke the oath taken in the name of God. To me, it
      all fits together.

      Contd... Part 2

      Paul Philipose
    • SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
      Dear members We have created a database section in our forum. We would like to update our list of parishes. We request our members to go to the data section
      Message 1502 of 1502 , Oct 1, 2004
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        Dear members
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