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Re: ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY

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  • thomas_pa1@yahoo.com
    Here is a good site to learn the true history of the Syrian Orthodox Church: http://www.uk-christian.net/boc/102f.htm Especially read the portion beginning
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 8, 2001
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      Here is a good site to learn the true history of
      the Syrian Orthodox Church:
      http://www.uk-christian.net/boc/102f.htm

      Especially read the portion beginning with
      "In 1906 Patriarch Abdul Messiah II was duly deposed
      and Môr Abdullah, backed by Môr Ivanios of Jerusalem and
      Môr Timotheos at Constantinople, .... "


      T
    • Thomas Daniel
      Dear Thomas What is the point though? Is the claim that the history of the Syriac Orthodox Church is somehow tainted? I would be the last person to argue
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 11, 2001
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        Dear Thomas

        What is the point though? Is the claim that the history of the Syriac
        Orthodox Church is somehow tainted? I would be the last person to
        argue against that. From that perspective the entire history of the
        Christian Church be it in the East or the West is tainted and
        reflects human frailty and weakness, often at its worst. I would
        readily admit that the turn of the 20th century was probably the
        worst period in the history of the Syriac Orthodox Church. The
        Ottoman empire exerted its heavy hand on the church and the spiritual
        life of the church under the subjugation of the Moslem empire had
        reached a low point. In those days, a Patriarch was the civil head of
        his community, the millet, and was even responsible for collecting
        taxes. He could be in that position only with the firman of the
        Caliph and the Caliph would give the firman only to someone who made
        a payment. This set the stage for corruption in the church. The
        tussle between Patriarch Abded Messiah and Patriarch Abdulla II
        happened during this time and was most unfortunate for the Syriac
        Orthodox Church. Vattasseril Mor Dionysius, who went to Patr. Abdulla
        for consecration as Metropolitan later took advantage of a
        disgruntled Abded Messiah and got him to consecrate a Catholicos.
        This was all during a time when the Syriac Orthodox in Turkey were
        under complete disarray and immediately later thousands of them were
        massacred by the Ottomans. Our people never once during all the
        centuries of our association extended a helping hand, but instead
        took advantage of the situation. Fortunately, with Patriarch Elias
        III, the church came under the spiritual guidance of one of the most
        devout leaders of modern times and ever since has made progress under
        the succeeding Patriarchs. To extrapolate the history of a few years
        around the turn of the 20th century and paint the entire history of
        the Syriac Church with a broad black brush is just malicious.

        For someone who would point to you the "tainted history" of the
        Syriac Orthodox Church, I have a retort: What good has come of the
        Malankara Church in the near 2000 years of its existence? The Syriac
        Church has produced innumerable fathers and doctors who are today
        held in reverence by Christians all over the world. It produced the
        earliest translations of the bible, innumerable commentaries on the
        Bible, 80 anaphoras, thousands of metrical hymns and homilies, and
        the list goes on. What has the Malankara Church, with its apparent
        glorious history produced during the same 2000 years? If the history
        of the Syriac Church was that bad, why are the Malankara Orthodox
        still using exclusively all the fruits of that dubious history?

        Personally, I think that history, esp. in the context of the
        Malankara Church, is used as a weapon selectively when it suits a
        denomination's claim to antiquity. The Catholics claim that St.
        Thomas Christians were always Catholic and make tenuous arguments to
        support that. Malankara Orthodox claim historical independence, where
        as some people with extreme views in our faction claim that they were
        always under Antioch. None of these positions are close to the truth.
        Even accounts of a single incident widely vary. For e.g., Catholics
        claim that in Koonen Kurishu Sathyam, people took an oath only
        against the Jesuits, the Indian Orthodox claim that they took an oath
        of independence, where as our faction claims that they took an oath
        to be under Antioch. I think the reality was closer to rejecting the
        Roman yoke, but it is hard to tell. The fact of the matter is that
        even if historians or archaelogists were to come up with evidence to
        support any of the statements, it doesn't make even a bit of a
        difference in the positions of the denominations. When history
        becomes inconvenient, it is conveniently forgotten.

        My point is that arguments based on history have little bearing on
        the current situation. If the different factions were to rise above
        the mean spirited struggle over money and power, focus on the will of
        God and attempt to resolve differences amicably in a Christian
        spirit, unity is possible. Hatred, even when justified by historical
        reasons, will never lead to Christian unity. If anyone thinks that I
        am going to be swayed away from the church that is the source of my
        spiritual heritage because of the actions of isolated people in its
        history, they are totally mistaken.

        In Our Lords Love
        Thomas Daniel

        PS: The article in Glastonbury Review is possibly by Abba Seraphim,
        bishop of the British Orthodox Church and relies heavily on Western
        histories written by Catholics and Protestants who had their own
        agenda in the Middle East. The British Orthodox themselves for years
        had attempted to be in communion with the Syriac Orthodox until the
        mid 90s, when they joined the Copts.


        --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., thomas_pa1@y... wrote:
        > Here is a good site to learn the true history of
        > the Syrian Orthodox Church:
        > http://www.uk-christian.net/boc/102f.htm
        >
        > Especially read the portion beginning with
        > "In 1906 Patriarch Abdul Messiah II was duly deposed
        > and Môr Abdullah, backed by Môr Ivanios of Jerusalem and
        > Môr Timotheos at Constantinople, .... "
        >
        >
        > T
      • thomas_pa1@yahoo.com
        ... oath ... Please do not consider this response a counter argument to impose my views on you. I am interested in knowing if we had any connection with West
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 12, 2001
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          --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Thomas Daniel" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:
          > Dear Thomas
          >

          > Even accounts of a single incident widely vary. For e.g., Catholics
          > claim that in Koonen Kurishu Sathyam, people took an oath only
          > against the Jesuits, the Indian Orthodox claim that they took an
          oath
          > of independence, where as our faction claims that they took an oath
          > to be under Antioch. I think the reality was closer to rejecting the
          > Roman yoke, but it is hard to tell. The fact of the matter is that
          > even if historians or archaelogists were to come up with evidence to
          > support any of the statements, it doesn't make even a bit of a
          > difference in the positions of the denominations. When history
          > becomes inconvenient, it is conveniently forgotten.

          Please do not consider this response a counter argument to impose
          my views on you. I am interested in knowing if we had any connection
          with West Syrian Church of Anthioc prior to 1965. I know about
          the connection of Malnakara Christians with persian Church.
          This is one reason why Catholics use chaldean syriac. Even in
          rest of the community, commonly used words are in chaldean
          syriac.

          In writing history, the West is perhaps far better than East,
          especially Indians. In India, there is no tradition of writing
          history. This makes it easy for various Churches to create
          their own history and take advantage of the lesser.

          There is historic evidence, in Syrian tradition and Indian tradition
          that "Koonan Kurish" oath was for re-establishing ties with Anthioc.
          I was reading a book written in the 17th century by an Anglican
          on the situation in India at the time of Koonan Kurish. There is
          absolutely no mention of Anthioc there. On the otherhand it is
          our common faith that the Indian leader of Indian Christians,
          i.e. Thoma, sent messengers not only to Anthioc, but to the
          Patriarchate of Alxandria also. Remember that Alexandrian connection
          is not something new. There is historical evidence that St. Demetrios
          the Patriarch of Alexandria sent St. Pantaneus to India. Can
          you provide evidence for any connection of Indian Church with
          Anthioc prior to 1965??

          By the way what is wrong with India, Indians and Indian bishops?
          Are they not human beings just like Syrians? Or is it that Syrians
          are superior to Indians. Let us think in Christian terms keeping
          the Orthodox faith. I am looking for concrete evidence that supports
          your view about Indian Church founded by St. Thomas.

          My view is that, St. Thomas establishing a Church in India is
          very similar to St. Mark's mission in Egypt and Alexandria. Only
          difference is that India was outside of Byzantine and Roman
          empire, so Patriarchates in the model of Churches in middle east
          and Africa, did not develop in India. Situation in India
          would have been much different, if our connection was with
          Alexandria and not with Syrian Church. Major cause of divisions
          in the Indian Church is the political unrest in the Syrian Church
          in the 20th century.

          T
        • thomas_pa1@yahoo.com
          ... Dear Daniel, Writings of Syrian fathers were not always in Syriac as you think. Some wrote only in Greek, e.g. Patairch Severios, you may not like him
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 12, 2001
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            --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Thomas Daniel" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:

            > For someone who would point to you the "tainted history" of the
            > Syriac Orthodox Church, I have a retort: What good has come of the
            > Malankara Church in the near 2000 years of its existence? The Syriac
            > Church has produced innumerable fathers and doctors who are today
            > held in reverence by Christians all over the world. It produced the
            > earliest translations of the bible, innumerable commentaries on the
            > Bible, 80 anaphoras, thousands of metrical hymns and homilies, and
            > the list goes on. What has the Malankara Church, with its apparent
            > glorious history produced during the same 2000 years? If the history
            > of the Syriac Church was that bad, why are the Malankara Orthodox
            > still using exclusively all the fruits of that dubious history?
            >

            Dear Daniel, Writings of Syrian fathers were not always in Syriac
            as you think. Some wrote only in Greek, e.g. Patairch Severios,
            you may not like him these days since you accept RC. There is
            nothing wrong in an unity with RC, provided it happens after
            discussion with rest of Oriental Orthodox Churches. That should
            be our Christian way.

            Also liturgy is not an intellectual property of an ethnic Church.
            Ethiopians use Coptic liturgy for sacraments, but in Geez, Amharic
            language. Indian Churches use Syrian liturgy as it was used
            in Jerusalem. We follow the Jerusalem writes received from,
            Mar Gregorios of Jerusalem, but in Malayalam language. Also
            many of our customs are different from that of Syrians.
            Similarly Coptic Church also produced many theologians and
            saints.

            It is not that we didn't had our own liturgy. We had everything,
            but foreign churches imposed their liturgy on us and distroying
            our works.

            Malankara Church does not lack in theological scholars and
            spiritual writings. There are many commentaries of Holy
            Eucharist written by 20th century Malankara fathers. In the
            area of theological dialogues with Eastern Orthodox, theologians
            from India contributed more than any. If you catalogue the
            works properly, perhaps 20th century Malankara Church
            produced more works than 20th century Syrian Church.
            Syrian Church did produce great works when the concentration
            of the Church was more on spiritual matters. Todays Church,
            I fear is a shadow of past glory. I think any Church has a
            dynamic existence confronting contemporary problems. Projecting
            just works of the past in not enough. Fathers of the past,
            when they wrote, were writing in respinse to problems they
            faced at that time, mostly theological controversies. But today
            we face more problems than this, especially problems created
            by advances in technology and changes in life style.
            Writings of some of the 20th century Malankara Fathers are more
            popular in Oriental, Eastern Orthodox and RC world than any
            other works originating from Oriental Orthodox Church.

            Some how we tend to give our own leaders and their works a
            low value. This lack in self confidence is due to our West-centric
            view of Christianity. Indian Christians tend to think that
            Christinaity is a Western (middle-eastern in your case) Semitic
            faith. But the Church of new testament can exist in a non
            semitic world. That is the beauty of Orthodox Christianity.
            Today we have Churches in all Indian cities, mission centeres
            with the full support of the Indian goverment. Do you know the
            reason why Indian government support the mission of Malankara
            Church and not RC?


            T
          • Emil@copticchurch.net
            ... years ... Hi reji and thomas. The reason why I joined this discussion group is to learn more about a fellow Oriental Orthodox Church along with the Coptic.
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 12, 2001
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              --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Thomas Daniel" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:
              > PS: The article in Glastonbury Review is possibly by Abba Seraphim,
              > bishop of the British Orthodox Church and relies heavily on Western
              > histories written by Catholics and Protestants who had their own
              > agenda in the Middle East. The British Orthodox themselves for
              years
              > had attempted to be in communion with the Syriac Orthodox until the
              > mid 90s, when they joined the Copts.
              >

              Hi reji and thomas.

              The reason why I joined this discussion group is to learn more about
              a fellow Oriental Orthodox Church along with the Coptic. And I am
              slowly trying to put things together as this is the first time I've
              encountered such history b/w the Syrian Orthodox Church and the
              Indian Orthodox.

              Can you please tell me more about the above information you posted
              regarding the British Orthodox Church. I remember Fr.Gregory of the
              British Orthodox Church came to visit us in Melbourne Australia and
              he mentioned the BOC trying to unite with the Antiochian church and
              it didn't work out because of problems. He also mentioned that
              Abba Seraphim was advised (in love and meekness) to seek communion
              with the Coptic Orthodox. What was the reasons behind this, and
              were there, is there any problems still within the Syrian Church as a
              whole? Forgive me if I'm wording things wrong... I'm an amateur in
              this area.

              I also remember Fr.Gregory stating Abba Seraphim tried with the Greek
              Orthodox too. He said all the Easterners were concerned about is
              land, money and the number of people within the Church. Things didn't
              work out there.

              In XC
              Emil
            • thomas_pa1@yahoo.com
              ... 1000s martyrs of Syrian church are there in Syria ... priest a ... St. Thomas!!! St. Thomas was a Malayali Orthodox Apostle who died for all Indians. I
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 15, 2001
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                --- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., "Daniel Thomas" <daniel_reji@h...> wrote:
                > Dear Members
                1000s martyrs of Syrian church are there
                in Syria
                > died for their belief, can U show me 1 malayali Malankara Orthodox
                priest a
                > martyr, NEVER U will find.

                St. Thomas!!! St. Thomas was a Malayali Orthodox Apostle who
                died for all Indians. I said St. Thomas was Malayali because
                in Christ race, ethnicity etc. vanishes. Indians (Hindus, Sufi
                Muslims, followers of Budha, Jains, Parsi, Malankara Nazrani etc.)
                were tolerant to other religions and that is why our Church did
                not produce many Martyrs. In the middle-east and West, people
                have an aggressive nature, probably because of excessive meat
                eating and wine drinking. Let us remain thankful to the great
                Indian civilization and maintain it in our lives.

                >Then why should I join subversion against Holy
                > Throne Of Antioch.

                A throne is holy only if it maintains the Orthodox faith.
                This is an ancient teaching. Alexandrian Throne is
                holy because it maintains the true faith. Syrian Church of
                Anthioc currently lives in communion with RC, so the
                Throne is not Holy according to ancient traditions of the
                Church (please read St. Cyril, St. Severus etc on this matter).


                >What Malankara bishop's party has its own apart
                >from what it has acquired from Patriarchs, not even 1 Prayer or saint
                >or priestly name
                > or dress. Slight differences are deliberately made now.
                >

                Almost all the names used by Malankara bishops are
                Coptic/ Greek. Athanasios, Kurillos (Cyril), Diascoros, Makarios,
                Anthonios etc. originated from Coptic Orthodox Church. The name
                Severios is also not Syriac. Infact St. Severios did not write in
                Syriac. Everything he wrote was in Greek.

                The attire currently used by Syriac Orthodox priests are similar
                to that of RC. For example, their cap is similar to that of
                Pope of Rome. Bishops also wear this kind of "makki Thoppi" similar
                to muslims, but in black color. The red attire of Syrian Bishops
                also is a copy of RC tradition. Only in head cover of monks and
                Bishops, the Syrian Orthodox Church truly follows the Alexandrian
                Coptic tradition (i.e. head cover with 13 crosses). Syrians got
                this from Alexandrian monks. The same is used by Indian monks.
                Original Syrian attire for Bishops is very close to what we see
                in Icons of St. Issac of Nineveh (Mar Issahac in Diptych #5) which
                is very similar to that used in North India among Rajasthani People
                and Sikhs (made of a long piece of cloth). Ethiopian Monks also
                wear such head cover made of yellow cloth.

                Hence the argument that Malankara clergy follows Syrian style dressing
                is no justification for the claims of Syrian authority over Apostolic
                Indian (Oriental) Orthodox Church.

                Thomas.
              • BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW
                ... From the desk of: B ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M B.E.(CSE) 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD COCHIN-682 024 SOUTH INDIA
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 13, 2002
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                  ---
                  From the desk of:
                  B
                  ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                  BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                  B.E.(CSE)

                  32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                  COCHIN-682 024
                  SOUTH INDIA

                  email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                  :hellobibu@...

                  NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.

                  ______________________________________________
                • DANIEL BABU PAUL
                  TOTUS TUUS MARIA ... From: BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW To: Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:23 AM
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 14, 2002
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                    TOTUS TUUS MARIA
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW <bibuphilipmathew@...>
                    To: <SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:23 AM
                    Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY


                    > ---
                    > From the desk of:
                    > B
                    > ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                    > BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                    > B.E.(CSE)
                    >
                    > 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                    > COCHIN-682 024
                    > SOUTH INDIA
                    >
                    > email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                    > :hellobibu@...
                    >
                    > NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.
                    >
                    > ______________________________________________
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • Aji Thomas
                    Thanks for the nice and informative article Aji ... Desk Of Bibu.doc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 14, 2002
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                      Thanks for the nice and informative article

                      Aji

                      --- BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW
                      <bibuphilipmathew@...> wrote:
                      > ---
                      > From the desk of:
                      > B
                      > ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                      > BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                      > B.E.(CSE)
                      >
                      > 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                      > COCHIN-682 024
                      > SOUTH INDIA
                      >
                      > email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                      > :hellobibu@...
                      >
                      > NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.
                      >
                      > ______________________________________________

                      > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/msword name=From the
                      Desk Of Bibu.doc



                      __________________________________________________
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                    • V Thomas
                      Bravo! It was very good. You have condensed the whole history nicely. Ending quoation was fantastic. Devil is running around to have a big crowd in the
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 15, 2002
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                        Bravo!
                        It was very good. You have condensed the whole history nicely.
                        Ending quoation was fantastic. Devil is running around to have a big crowd
                        in the association meting.
                        Natuaaly they will make sure the crowd is big by hook or crook.
                        vmt
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW" <bibuphilipmathew@...>
                        To: <SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:23 AM
                        Subject: [SOCM-FORUM] ORIENTAL CONSANGUINITY


                        > ---
                        > >From the desk of:
                        > B
                        > ( Vayaliparambil Pynadath ) BPM
                        > BIBU PHILIP MATTHEW M
                        > B.E.(CSE)
                        >
                        > 32/1981; NETAJI ROAD
                        > COCHIN-682 024
                        > SOUTH INDIA
                        >
                        > email:bibuphilipmathew@...
                        > :hellobibu@...
                        >
                        > NB:Mail checked once in a month by guarantee.
                        >
                        > ______________________________________________
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > SOCM-FORUM-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
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