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Ban Patriarch, Welcome Armenian !!

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  • J Kurien
    1. When our Patriarch who is the head of 1-2 million Malankara Jacobites came, the rival Methran Kakshi leadership in Devalokam filed 2 court cases, one
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 5, 2008
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      1. When our Patriarch who is the head of 1-2 million Malankara Jacobites came, the rival Methran Kakshi leadership in Devalokam filed 2 court cases, one after another, demanding a ban on H.H. from participating in any religious function/entering churches etc.. IOCs argument then was that H.H. is coming on a tourist Visa and so he must not be allowed to land in Indian soil/ participate in functions organized by his religious followers etc. etc.. (an argument which every other Court rejected unanimously)

      -- Now the same IOC within a week after all these cheap dramas and showoffs, find no problem in bringing an Armenian Catholicos who has no religious follower in Kerala, under the same circumstances. Also they find nothing wrong in making the Armenian head from participating in religious functions in IOC churches including the church at Parumala which in actual sense belongs to the Patriarch of Antioch whom they oppose tooth and nail.

      2. When our Patriarch came IOC heads barked at the State Government as well as filed complaints in Courts against the Government decision of giving H.H. the honourable status of State Guest.

      -- Now the same IOC doesn’t seems to have any problem in pleading before the leftist govt., against whom they pretend to oppose, to make the visiting Armenian head a State Guest.

      According to IOCians, whenever the Patriarch of Antioch comes to India he has to get some sort of consent/certificate from Devalokam to land in Indian soil. For them Indian Government, Kerala Government, Honourable Courts, are all institutions which has to act according to the wishes of Devalokam leadership orelse they becomes violent and aggressive as we have been witnessing in the recent times.

      They will talk lot about Court and its rulings, but when they get defeated they will sit in front of the same Court and that too on the same date in which a crucial court judgment is expected and will call it a Gandhian dharna! Poor Mahatma, he may not have come across such pressurising tactics!

      More funny is that even the small time guys of IOC like George Joseph and Fr. Konat thinks like that and acts like that. Really funny are these guys and their ways..…
       
      J Kurien
      Thiruvalla
      Member ID # 2310
    • Thomas Varghese
      Dear Kurian, Malankara Orthodox Church do not have any problem in Patriarch of Antoioch visiting his flocks in kerala. This was made very clear by Church
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 5, 2008
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        Dear Kurian,

        Malankara Orthodox Church do not have any problem in Patriarch of
        Antoioch visiting his flocks in kerala. This was made very clear by
        Church leaders from the start it self. The opposition was only for
        visiting churches where some problems existing between orthodox and
        Jacobite faction. Such a doubt occured because Jacobite church have
        arranged function in Mulunthuruthy and Kandanad Churches. (Incidently
        Later Kandanad Church program was convened in the nearby ground.)
        Especially due to the Communist-jacobilte love this days , It is
        quite natural to get suspecious about intentions of jacobite church (
        especially after thrikkunnathu seminary incidents last year). Since
        Patriarch was a state guest, State government was forced to give an
        affidavit about the programs that no problems will erupt due to the
        programs and this was probably what orthodox church wants in this
        regard by filing the case.

        But Jacobite church is just spreading all allegation to emotionally
        charge its supporters.

        Whether declaring one as state guest depends on the supporters he
        possess alone ? Armenian Supreme Patrarch and Catholicose is the head
        of 7 millions Armenians world wide ( SOC can count maximum 1+0.2)
        Which itself can be a criteria. Also All through his indian visit H.H
        group includes the ambassoder of armenia in india which shows respect
        H.H is having in his country. This also should be another criteria.

        Thomas
        #2316


        --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, J Kurien wrote:
        >
        > 1. When our Patriarch who is the head of 1-2 million Malankara
        Jacobites came, the rival Methran Kakshi leadership in Devalokam
        filed 2 court cases, one after another, demanding a ban on H.H. from
        participating in any religious function/entering churches etc.. IOCs
        argument then was that H.H. is coming on a tourist Visa and so he
        must not be allowed to land in Indian soil/ participate in functions
        organized by his religious followers etc. etc.. (an argument which
        every other Court rejected unanimously)
        >
      • Issac K Joseph
        Dear Kurien, You have made the point precisely. Thanks. IOC is saying that they have filed cases only to prevent H.H. from entering churches under 1934
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 7, 2008
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          Dear Kurien,

          You have made the point precisely. Thanks. IOC is saying that they
          have filed cases only to prevent H.H. from entering churches under
          1934 constitution, beyond that they have no objection in the
          Patriarch's visit. Look how neatly they are telling a lie when the
          fact is something else. If they were concerned only about the
          Patriarch's entry into so called disputed churches, then they could
          have filed a straightforward case specifically requesting to ban HH
          from entering the so called churches which IOC claims to be under
          1934 constitution. Instead of asking for a ban on entry to these
          churches, what IOC demanded for was to ban Patriarch from
          participating in ANY RELIGIOUS FUNCTION as he is flouting the IOC-
          claimed India Government visa rules. This is where the crookedness of
          IOC lies.

          Everybody knew that every other function planned for the Patriarch
          was a religious function, so if the court has banned the Patriarch
          then HH program could have been cancelled. This was exactly what IOC
          wanted, they want to demoralize our people and exploit that
          situation. But the honorable courts were wise enough to understand
          the crookedness of IOC. That may be why the judges specifically asked
          certain questions for which IOC's advocate had no answer.

          God is great. This is for the fourth time IOC was trying to prevent
          the Patriarchs visit. First time they tried it through former
          minister from Mavelikara C M Stephen and another one in the then PM
          office. Second time in 2000 they tried through BJP leaders by trying
          to inject communal hatred. One BJP national Christian leader of that
          time was even summoned to Seminary by the then IOC Catholicos at 8 pm
          in the night. The third time in 2004 IOC filed a similar case as of
          now, but through a Hindu and 2 Christian guys and IOC tried to wash
          off their hands directly. And this time once again they tried to ban
          Patriarch raising somewhat similar points plus State Guest issue, and
          went up to the full bench of High Court. But Court rejected
          everything that IOC demanded for, which shows that IOCs claims were
          totally unwarranted. IOC are those who always loudly ask us to, obey
          court order, obey court order (as if they are the sole law abiders),
          if so why could they remain silent atleast after every Court of our
          land rejected the illegal demands of IOC.

          In Christ
          Issac K Joseph
          # 0917

          --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, J Kurien wrote:
          >
          > 1. When our Patriarch who is the head of 1-2 million Malankara
          Jacobites came, the rival Methran Kakshi leadership in Devalokam
          filed 2 court cases, one after another, demanding a ban on H.H. from
          participating in any religious function/entering churches etc.. IOCs
          argument then was that H.H. is coming on a tourist Visa and so he
          must not be allowed to land in Indian soil/ participate in functions
          organized by his religious followers etc. etc.. (an argument which
          every other Court rejected unanimously)
          >
        • Abraham Kurian
          Dear Thomas, I feel compelled to respond to your message. ... Really this is news to me as far as I know your leaders wanted to prevent HH Bava from
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 7, 2008
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            Dear Thomas,

            I feel compelled to respond to your message.

            > Malankara Orthodox Church do not have any problem in Patriarch of
            > Antoioch visiting his flocks in kerala. This was made very clear by
            > Church leaders from the start it self.

            Really this is news to me as far as I know your leaders wanted to
            prevent HH Bava from participating in any religious function

            > The opposition was only for
            > visiting churches where some problems existing between orthodox and
            > Jacobite faction. ................................ Since
            > Patriarch was a state guest, State government was forced to give an
            > affidavit about the programs that no problems will erupt due to the
            > programs and this was probably what orthodox church wants in this
            > regard by filing the case.
            >

            Wow I just fell in love with your analogy. The IOC wanted to prevent
            law and order problem and so they filed a case thereby forcing the
            govt to declare that it will take care. IOC deserves an award for
            their social consciousness and concern :) Maybe you should file these
            cases every time a political party calls a hartal or a student union
            calls a strike. That way we call all enjoy law and order.

            IOC clearly demonstrated its interest in law and order at Piravom with
            people from other regions for a 'Kudumbasangamam'. If that is IOC
            kudumbam then we are fortunate to be a different church. Your church
            faithfuls display is there on the internet for all the world to see.

            > But Jacobite church is just spreading all allegation to emotionally
            > charge its supporters.
            >

            If the supporters are getting charged it is because they can read and
            see what is going on around them. Don't assume that JSC is composed of
            people who cant understand and blindly follow their leaders. They
            follow their leaders in true faith because they are convinced of the
            truth and justice on their side. We don't need to spread allegations
            to charge our people. This must have been evident from the huge crowds
            at the events attended by HH the Patriarch

            Please understand that we have no issues with the arrival of the
            Armenian Catholicos and your receiving him. We also honor him as the
            head of a Sister Church in the OO family. It is just the hypocrisy
            of the IOC that is being exposed.


            I will mention another example of the IOC hypocrisy.

            Very recently the student body in IOC MGOCSM conducted a centenary
            meeting in Delhi.
            http://malankaraorthodox.tv/delhi/MGOCSM%20Centenary/index.html
            In this meeting one of the invited guests was the Syrian Ambassador to
            India. Now I am not aware of the involvement of HE the Ambassador in
            MGOCSM activities and neither have I heard of his reputation as a
            speaker or in any other way in popular media. Can you please check and
            tell me why he was invited.

            In just about every possible forum, IOC and its leaders are busy
            insulting and denigrating the Syrians as Arabs/Methans/Thulukkans etc.
            So what is special in this Ambassador to invite him. Do you and your
            church suddenly realise that Syrians are not so bad. Do you have the
            guts to tell the Ambassador what you guys call them in the vernacular
            media.

            Maybe food for thought

            Regards
            Abraham Kurian
            Member ID 1011
          • Sabu Alias
            Amazing !! the skin depth of some of the MOC memebrs!!!. In another forum one member wrote that they have not given case against HH. But only gave a case to
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 9, 2008
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              Amazing !! the skin depth of some of the MOC memebrs!!!. In another forum one member wrote that they have not given case against HH. But only gave a case to prevent Our Catholica from entering some church.!!. It is very difficult to wake a man who pretends to sleep. So it does not require a reply.They donot respect their own constitution. It is already a known fact that they have the least respect to Spirituality and its purity.( Kindly remember the following ,recently occured events.

              1. Fr. John Konat, the priest trustee ,giving a case against HH while remember his name in the First Thubden!!

              2. Want to prove the existence of a fictitious throne by overruling the holy Bible. For this purpose they have crucified Christ many time in between 1912 and 2008.

              3. Defiling the holy symbols at Piravom Kurisadi in front of Fr. Konat ,Niyuktha Catholica!! . Glorifying that incident as the victory of MOC). Now they are telling some more lies to believe themseleves that they are in the right track! (In MOC lie is not a barrier to sainthood)

              Sabu Alias
              3323
            • Jacob Nebu
              Dear Thomas How Armenian catholicos become father of IOC ? is Indian Orthodox usig their liturgy? their prayer culture ? dresses ? how many fathers from
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 10, 2008
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                Dear Thomas

                How Armenian catholicos become father of IOC ? is Indian Orthodox
                usig their liturgy? their prayer culture ? dresses ? how many fathers
                from armenia came here before, to spread christianity ? and How many
                of them are came here and died for us , when there was problems ? from
                where you got the "Pattatham" , from armenia....? In which "Tubdhen" u
                r are remembering the armenia thorne.

                All the above you got from Antioch, HH Antioch Patriarch is your true
                father. repent and comeback BAVA will surely forgive you and will pray
                for you because Christ lives in him.

                Nebu
                4133


                --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Varghese wrote:
                >
                > Dear Kurian,
                >
                > Malankara Orthodox Church do not have any problem in Patriarch of
                > Antoioch visiting his flocks in kerala. This was made very clear by
                > Church leaders from the start it self. The opposition was only for
                > visiting churches where some problems existing between orthodox and
                > Jacobite faction. Such a doubt occured because Jacobite church have
                > arranged function in Mulunthuruthy and Kandanad Churches. (Incidently
                > Later Kandanad Church program was convened in the nearby ground.)
                > Especially due to the Communist-jacobilte love this days , It is
                > quite natural to get suspecious about intentions of jacobite church (
              • Shinu Jesus Abraham
                Greetings to All I would like to add some to the below comments of Mr. Abraham responding to Mr. Thomas. The MOC blame it is our Bava Thirumeni is the reason
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 10, 2008
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                  Greetings to All
                  I would like to add some to the below comments of Mr. Abraham
                  responding to Mr. Thomas. The MOC blame it is our Bava Thirumeni is
                  the reason for the church split, which had happened even before his
                  birth by some for power and wisely propagated by some prominent
                  families and the leading newspaper which was the main source of
                  communication for many years. Any theories and controversies was
                  painted in whatever color they wanted. Years passed by and many
                  people remained in their faith though the leadership couldn't bring
                  about the settlement of all the problems happening in the church as
                  factional fights. In the 90's many dreamt of a good future when some
                  young promising metropolitans was in the forefront of our leadership
                  and always translated/communicated everything as we are victorious.
                  The whole SOC was behind them.

                  Suddenly everybody came to know these metropolitans have submitted
                  themselves to IOC in the name of unity, cheating all the SOC who
                  stood with them. The vacuum created in the leadership was huge and
                  everybody feared of the worse. But fortunately God gave a new leader
                  in our Bava Thirumeni who led the flock to unimaginable fields of
                  success.

                  Now let us see what the difference was in the two leadership's.

                  - Those who jumped over THOUGHT "We are SOC and what we decide will
                  be followed by the whole multitude who were following"

                  - What the current leadership has done was understanding the
                  aspirations and belief of the people behind them and moving forward
                  in THEIR FAITH AND PRAYERS. The new age electronic media and
                  communication/news networks only assisted us in the path and did
                  wonders in last 10 years compared to the 90 years preceding it.

                  The IOC doesn't understand this and they blame our leaders for all
                  the problems and even some who jumped over say "they under-estimated
                  Divannasious Thirumeni' s ability to bring together all the SOC". We
                  can only say that they over-estimated the ability of the
                  metropolitans who jumped over and they under-estimated the faith and
                  tradition of the flocks in SOC which they hold on to. The whole
                  world have seen last month who are the problem creators after the
                  Piravom incident and what strong relationship, love & alliance SOC
                  faithful is proclaiming with Patriarch of Antioch and all the East.
                  Let's pray they open their eyes and see the whole world rather than
                  staying in their imaginative/dream world of "Deva"-"lokam". Do
                  understand MALANKARA is not equal to INDIA. The gimmicks of honoring
                  heads of sister churches is not even exciting for MOSC faithful.
                  Work on your own "Vellamillatha Kinarukal" rather than persecuting
                  the mother church. Stop blaming SOC for your failures as a community
                  and as a church.

                  May God bless our Moran and Aboon health and wisdom to lead the
                  church for many more years.

                  Shinu Jesus Abraham
                  Member id # 2908


                  --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Abraham Kurian wrote:
                  >
                  > > But Jacobite church is just spreading all allegation to
                  emotionally
                  > > charge its supporters.
                  > >
                  >
                  If the supporters are getting charged it is because they can read and
                  see what is going on around them. Don't assume that JSC is composed
                  of people who cant understand and blindly follow their leaders. They
                  follow their leaders in true faith because they are convinced of the
                  truth and justice on their side. We don't need to spread allegations
                  to charge our people. This must have been evident from the huge
                  crowds at the events attended by HH the Patriarch
                • Thomas Mann
                  Dear Thomas Varghese, ... Being a person from Kandanad Church, I m compelled to point out few points. Either the IOC disrespects our (both SOC and IOC) Holy
                  Message 8 of 8 , Nov 10, 2008
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                    Dear Thomas Varghese,

                    >> Jacobite church is just spreading all allegation to emotionally
                    >> charge its supporters

                    >>Incidentally Later Kandanad Church program was convened in the nearby ground.)<<<

                    Being a person from Kandanad Church, I'm compelled to point out few points. Either the IOC disrespects our (both SOC and IOC) Holy Father Patriarch or accept a father from the neighborhoods, I'm not bothered. Because in this new generation, I have seen people sending out their biological father and mother to streets with their fast running murky perceptions in which they live. Let only the God correct them! There are peoples who are exceptions to this too.

                    Believe me either you understand me or not; there is a massive number of people who live in their emotions with the blessings from their true spiritual Holy father by accepting him.

                    And in Kandanad; from two months back itself it was declared that the function was going to happen in the school ground.

                    Our Holy Church(Saint Mary's Cathedral Kandanad) is one good example which is under the rule of Receiver from Court for more than 25 year just because of the factional fight; but alive and fruitful just by the emotions of common laymen and their love towards the church.(The church maintenance which under went and the feast celebrations of saints every year are few instances) Here people go to their mother Church in the emotion that their fore-fathers are buried there and the blessed Holy mortal remains of Saint George, Saint Shakralla and Mar Thoma IV are the sources of blessings in each our life, and not because of factional belief.

                    Both the SOC and IOC celebrate memories of these fathers not with factional thoughts, but by the understanding that, they are the fathers who has lit the holy Sprit of God to each of our fore-fathers and thereby to us even now.

                    I believe this would be the heartfelt thoughts of a normal layman (not a sophisticated stereotyped layman) of the churches where the factional fights are happening.

                    May the heavenly peace abode in us and thereby our Church, by the intersession of St Mary, St Peter- Chief of the Apostles, St. Thomas -the Apostle of India, St George and St Baselios Shakralla Maphriyono and all other saints, and thereby God enable each of us to show Jesus Christ to the world for which we are called for.


                    May God bless us all!
                    Thomas Mann
                    Marth Mariam Cathedral Kandanad,
                    St Mary's JSO Cathedral Bangalore.
                    ID # 972
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