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Re: Kozhencherry origin of IOC elect, V.S. & some more facts

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  • Paul Pothen
    I tried to expose the true nativity of a recently metran elect of IOC only because almost all the articles in IOC magazines tried to completely colour him as a
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 1, 2008
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      I tried to expose the true nativity of a recently metran elect of IOC only because almost all the articles in IOC magazines tried to completely colour him as a person outside south kerala. As Mr. Sajy Thannikkottu pointed out, it is true that people becomes the property of a region once they migrate and settle in a new place. But even then it is also very common for anyone to go back to their ancestral route, particularly when that migration is only a few decades old. �And such a person�s ancestral background becomes news; particularly when that fellow is chosen to an important post. And it is again a common thing among the media to reveal his nativity in that particular situation.�
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      And this is only what happened when our recently ordained Calicut diocesan bishop was elected. This bishops original native place was Manarcaud and his parents migrated to mangalore even before his birth. In this case neither our Medias nor the bishop-elect, tried to hide his south-keralaite origin even though he was to be elected for a far away North kerala diocese.

      But in IOC Rambans case, for some unknown reasons, many IOC media tried to hide his original nativity. I don�t know what they will gain ultimately from hiding that besides fooling some ignorant persons.

      The Italian origin of Sonia Gandhi or the Bhutanese nativity of late President K R Narayanans wife Usha Narayanan, are all things which are very commonly talked things in our society.� Only difference is that more important a person becomes, his nativity also becomes more exposed. This is only a natural phenomenon. Likewise those belonging to the Knani Thoma linage are still acknowledged as a special Christian sect because of their nativity.

      Say for example the case of latest US Presidential nominee of Democrats. I don�t think it is a strange thing if some media digs into the family background of Barack Obama and expose his African identity. Of course it is not a criminal thing to do that. As we all know there is nothing wrong for a person born in one place becomes a citizen of another country and hold responsible positions of that new country. Such things are happening throughout the world and it is not an issue at all. It becomes an issue only if Barack Obama or some people supporting him try to hide his original nativity which neither of them is doing.

      But contrary to this, in IOCs case they seems to be taking an extra effort to hide the originally nativity of one of their bishop-elects and when some magazines or persons expose that, they becomes angry. This is the core issue, nothing else.

      Paul Pothen
      Ernakulam.
      # 3305
    • Sajy Thannikkottu
      I appreciate Mr. Paul Pothen s last mail on the bishop elected candidate as it is much realistic than what was written in
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 4, 2008
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        I appreciate Mr. Paul Pothen's last mail on the bishop elected
        candidate as it is much realistic than what was written in
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/13534 .

        Earlier Mr Pothen referred me as being influenced by Almayavedi & came
        with a counter argument about mistakes published in Almayavedi. I
        can't blame Mr. Pothen's stand as it is very common practice of both
        IOC & Jacobite publications because of the ongoing fight. One wants to
        tarnish the image of the other as both want to win, but never notice
        both are failing. When Mr.Pothen referred Almayavedi, he didn't know I
        don't read almayavedi & I tried to correct V.S only because I know
        rambachan's family as his family is related to mine. Now, please don't
        derive a new formula saying I only read Jacobite's publications.
        Sometimes I read V.S as SOCM post its latest update, not because of
        any other reason & I don't get time to read all Orthodox & Jacobite
        publications. And I responded on this topic not because I was angered
        with V.S editorial team, but because I know it personally. However, it
        is shame for both IOC & Jacobite church publications if they are doing
        the work of Yellow Papers after saying in the "intersession" of some
        good people lived.

        I request Mr.Pothen to correct Almayavedi when he notices errors. You
        please utilize your freedom of expression. If the other can print
        errors we will also print errors is not an excuse. If that is the case
        what is the difference between both? And how one can blame other? When
        Mr.Pothen applauds Rambachan as a good administrator, he also referred
        him as a person standing tough to Jacobites' interest. Mr. Pothen,
        please understand every priest has so many limitations. Any IOC and
        Jacobite priest standing tough to opposite group is considered as
        efficient whereas the flexible one is considered as incapable by his
        own Church in our current system. Even our Church or Church
        publications never give this much of importance to priests who defend
        our faith against Pentecostals group. Our people are highly concerned
        when IOC or Jacobites are getting an additional church or an extra
        member where they don't bother as much on Pentacostal influence. We
        need to rewrite our current set-up to avoid this kind of situations. I
        noticed some messages in SOCM sometime back appreciating Marthoma
        Church's respect to SOC Patriarch. I wonder whether the same person is
        aware about theological difference between both churches. I used to
        see unity concept of SOC with RC church. I wonder whether it is going
        to establish in true sense as RC never accepts superiority or
        equivalency of any leadership than Pope. And if SOC is ready to accept
        superiority of Pope, I am sure SOC can unite with RC & jacobites can
        expect a growth similar to Malankara Catholic. Today Malankara
        Catholic is the fastest growing Christian community in Kerala. Thanks
        to our ongoing litigation & street fight. Though Marthoma Church has
        got a remarkable growth earlier, today the same is challenged by other
        protestant churches.

        But I always wonder & will continue to do so why people can't remain
        in unity when they share everything other than the interference of
        these Yellow Papers. This unity in faith is the reason if I went to
        Kothamangalam & Manarcadu Churches last time when I was in Kerala. I
        will utilize similar opportunities in future also & the same was the
        reason if I went ahead to receive H G Joseph Mar Gregorious' blessings
        in Kochi airport sometime back, though H G doesn't know me personally
        or even that was the first time for me meeting H G. That unity in
        faith is the reason if I am taking proud of being part of Orthodox &
        Jacobite churches in & outside Kerala. Separations like people of
        South & North should be discouraged in a small state like Kerala for
        the sake of our faith.

        Earlier, Manoj C George came with a list which he said he noticed in a
        family get-together (
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/13549 ). In his words
        "The IOC guy was in full steam spitting out his hate towards whatever
        is SOC". I still wonder who is this Manoj C George talking about a
        family get-together where I was also present, when I, myself don't
        know about such an incident. I request Manoj C George to disclose his
        identity if he is sure that he is talking about me as I need to
        consult a doctor for a possible amnesia.

        Also don't think, I write only against Jacobites. I do write wrongs of
        IOC also when I am sure IOC is wrong. But I don't write to make
        someone happy or because others want me to write. And I defend
        Orthodox & Jacobite's Faith in an internet group mainly of
        Pentacostals about our baptism, intercessory prayers, etc. And I
        believe I am making a difference in their understanding about our
        faith as I noticed they are just like trained Parrots.

        I appreciate Moderators for giving reference articles of Mr. Georgy S
        Thomas & Very Rev. Kuriakose Moolayil Corepiscopos. Do we have any
        related articles referring why H H Abdul Messiah II & HH Abdullah
        joined RC at some stage of their life span? Achen's article mainly
        focuses on H H Abdul Messiah & a reply to Mr. Georgy S Thomas, which
        is not fulfilling my purpose.

        Regards

        Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
        # 2912
      • Dr.George kunju John
        Dear All, While reading the word fight between Mr Thanikod and Mr. Pothen in the name of a united church I felt very sad. We are beating about bush and raise
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 6, 2008
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          Dear All,
          While reading the word fight between Mr Thanikod and Mr. Pothen in
          the name of a united church I felt very sad. We are beating about
          bush and raise new and old references to support one's arguments and
          hypothesis. At the same time every one high lights the spiritual
          poverty in the church which is encashed by Reeth and Penticosts. We
          often forget the Christain confession and give more prominence to
          triveal concepts of traditions. Todays church administration is very
          similar to the one of Jews which received a strong criticism from fine thanks pleased to see u askim our Lord and God. There is nothing wrong if one abuses God who dwells in Church, but never get accepted a word against a church.

          The importance of edayans is vital for the healthy development of a
          church denomination. He is the Edayan whose sound is recognized by
          sheep. He is the Edayan who is ready to sacrifice his life for his
          sheep. If I give this reference many learned schollars of our church
          may not relish it. Please examine the church history in Malankara.
          The only Edayan I could find in the history is (HH) Aboon Mor
          Baselios Thomas I. The enviable growth of SOC of Malanakara around
          the world is the result of Aboon's tearful prayers, wise actions and
          loving advices.

          There is a common saying ' Respect and take respect'. None in IOC is
          ready to respect Aboon and Moran. The most accepted attribute in our
          church is indiscipline. Today, we need a new approach to church
          reunification. Allow holy spirit to work with out our intervention.
          Let both factions decide to allow the clergy of both conduct holy
          qurbano in their churches. Parumala is more sacred because of saint's
          full adoration to St. Peter and Antiochean Patriarcate. Can IOC welcome HH Moran Zakka Bava during the next apostolic visit to Kerala
          even though they remember Moran in all their liturgies. Like wise can
          SOC invite HH Moran Didimos Bava to Manarcad church. Forget the property rights let it be remain with those who built it the poor
          faithful.

          There is a curce in our middle. Our never ending desire for wealth,
          power and superiority. Leave every thing there and follow Our Lord to
          protect the church.

          This reminds me the three monkies of Gandhiji. The more we make sound
          the more will be the gap.

          With prayers

          Dr.George Kunju John
          ID 0209

          --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Sajy Thannikkottu wrote:
          >
          > I appreciate Mr. Paul Pothen's last mail on the bishop elected
          > candidate as it is much realistic than what was written in
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/13534 .
          >
          > Earlier Mr Pothen referred me as being influenced by Almayavedi &
          came
          > with a counter argument about mistakes published in Almayavedi. I
          > can't blame Mr. Pothen's stand as it is very common practice of both
          > IOC & Jacobite publications because of the ongoing fight. One wants
          to
          > tarnish the image of the other as both want to win, but never notice
          > both are failing.
        • Paul Pothen
          I tried to answer queries and objections on one IOC rambans nativity only to clarify certain points which Mr. Sajy Thannikkottu has raised. Any arguments and
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 7, 2008
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            I tried to answer queries and objections on one IOC rambans nativity only to clarify certain points which Mr. Sajy Thannikkottu has raised. Any arguments and counter-arguments can continue endlessly and will not have a natural end unless one side really wishes. I am happy to know that Mr. Sajy is closely related to the newly elected Ramban.

            Paul Pothen
            Ernakulam
            # 3305

            On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 Sajy Thannikkottu wrote :
            >I appreciate Mr. Paul Pothen's last mail on the bishop elected candidate as it is much realistic than what was written
          • Manoj George
            Dear Sajay, After I read your reply addressed to me, I understood the meaning of the saying The cat is out of the sac . I don t remember mentioning anywhere
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 9, 2008
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              Dear Sajay,

              After I read your reply addressed to me, I understood the meaning of the saying 'The cat is out of the sac'.

              I don't remember mentioning anywhere about Mr. Sajay Thannikottu arguing with people in a family get together. I was mentioning an incident that actually happened when I was in Kerala last June. Now even if it was you I wouldn't have known because I have never met you in my life. Now you say that you were also present in that meeting and none of the incidents that I wrote about took place.If it was you then you cannot refuse the fact that whatever points I summarised in my previous message were actually argued upon. Come on Sajay, there were others also present witnessing this event. The points I have mentioned previously are the arguments of any average IOCian. So don't worry that if you accept having argued in those lines your facade of being a person seeking unity and peace will fall off. We understand your types very well.

              Regarding my identity , the honourable moderators of this forum have
              issued me an ID no because I have disclosed my identity to them and
              they are convinced of my identity. I have been a member of this Forum
              since the beginning. So please don't be under the impression that I am hiding under some false identities like some of your likes tend to do.

              Sajay, the problem here is not Vishwasasamrakshakan or Almayavedi, but the problem is your attitude. For you anything and everything SOC comes in black. Its not your fault as you have been fed these things and you and your likes don't want to open your eyes and ears to simple facts. My problem with your message was not because you pointed out an article written in VS, but because you sarcastically invoked the name of St. Valiya Thirumeni. My problem was with your attitude. You could have wrote your views on the article of VS without sarcastically taking the name of such a holy father.

              And this is the primary problem in the church conflict. This attitude
              of your church leaders and least respect to our sentiments and
              concerns. First ask them to change this attitude and then we can talk
              unity.

              Let us not discuss on your neutrality as you claim. Recently you sent a mail to the other Forum mentioning the two eventualities in case HH the Patriarch is invited by your church. If you are really neutral as you claim to be, ask your mannuthy metran to shut up before you can even think of having a dialogue with HH. You people applaud after seeing his verbal gymnastics in front of TV cameras and journalists and later brood that HH did not show interest in having a dialogue with your church when he was in malankara.

              Sajay, understand that peace is possible in this church in the present scenario... but not unity.

              Rgds
              Manoj
              ID no 1309
            • Mathew G M
              Dear Dr George Kunju John, In your message you say: Like wise can SOC invite HH Moran Didimos Bava to Manarcad church. My answer is that the SOC has invited
              Message 6 of 6 , Oct 9, 2008
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                Dear Dr George Kunju John,

                In your message you say: "Like wise can SOC invite HH Moran Didimos
                Bava to Manarcad church."

                My answer is that the SOC has invited the Indian Orthodox Church
                dignitaries to the most important church that the SOC has, St. Mark's
                Syrian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem. The SOC even permitted the IOC
                Bishops to celeberate the divine liturgy in this church, during the
                visit of Didimos Bava to Jerusalem. You can see the photos at:

                http://www.epilgrim.org/malankara_visitors.htm

                During the visit, Didimos Bava and team also went over to Egypt and
                visited with H.H the Pope of Alexandria of the Coptic Church. I always
                wondered why this team never bothered to visit Damascus and pay visit
                to H.H the Patriarch of Antioch.

                So the SOC has already invited the IOC Bishops to celeberate the divine
                liturgy at one of the most important SOC churches. The question is will
                the IOC invite the Patriarch ? I hope and pray they do, and that it may
                lead to the ultimate healing of divisions.

                In Christ,
                Mathew G M
                # 0929
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