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Re:Icons in the Syrian Orthodox tradition

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  • Eldose Thelappilly Jacob
    Dear Appu, Its very interesting to share your knowledge and experience on these matters. As far as I know, there is no any ACTUAL pictures of Jesus,St.Mary,
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 29, 2008
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      Dear Appu,

      Its very interesting to share your knowledge and experience on these matters.

      As far as I know, there is no any ACTUAL pictures of Jesus,St.Mary, Joesph, and most of our saints. The term ACTUAL means a photo taken by camera as we do today.

      All most all the pictures as we see today are drawn by looking on the actual person or from thier imagination! The present picture of Parumala thirumeni is even modified and coloured..! not reall.! I have seen a copy of the original (still a drawn by artist) with a CoEpiscopa of our Church in Ernakulam which he is keeping that as a lifetime precious in his collection.!

      There is sketched pictures available from the the handtowel which was put on Jesus' face while buring his eternal body on the tomb. Many of ancient historians accept that as a true face picture of Jesus...! The western picture style of Jesus and disciples and the Oriental style of Jesus and disciples are different. This is 'cause of how they are been drawn by artists living in these regions...! (example: if see in western countries, the Jesus and disciples are bit fatty,white while in Oriental (Syria) their body shape is drawn almost lean and fair coloured..!) So regional influance would have left artist to draw thier own imaginated pictures which would have later on used widely. this is clear from pictures at Roman Churches and Antiochan churches which is the key traditional church of the world.

      I believe these information(good or bad) will spark more arguments from our well educated patrons on SOC..!

      Our church believe that face of Jesus with heart is not to be kept; I think due to following.
      1. our faith is beyond a materialistic view (heart being a part of body) which cannot be seen, can only be experienced...!
      2. He (Son) is always keep praying for the betterment of the world so we use the prayer one.
      3. Stuanch faith that Prayer will be answered.
      4. To remind us that we have a father who is always praying for you.

      Regards and prayers,
      Eldose # 4070
    • John Thomas
      Dear Apu, That was a good point to discuss. I totally agree with you and I personally used to tell others about this. But writing in this discussion form is
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 29, 2008
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        Dear Apu,

        That was a good point to discuss. I totally agree with you and I personally used to tell others about this. But writing in this discussion form is the need of this time, so that a lot more people are made aware of.

        In our sunday schools this concept should be taught to our children and our churches must deny presents of pictures which are against SOC ideology. Like you said, our church stalls should not sell icons other than traditional SOC icons.
        I really appreciate your good work on this regard.
        God Bless you.

        John Thomas
        St. Mary's Valiapally, Kottayam
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      • Shinu Jesus Abraham
        Greetings to All Thanks to Mr. Apu Jose for bringing up the subject. The problem is defenitely as Rev.Fr. Mani Rajan mentioned - WHO WILL BELL THE CAT Let me
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 1, 2008
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          Greetings to All

          Thanks to Mr. Apu Jose for bringing up the subject. The problem is
          defenitely as Rev.Fr. Mani Rajan mentioned - "WHO WILL BELL THE CAT"

          Let me just add to it a few more points to the list of Mr. Apu from
          the most important place of church - the holy Thronos

          1. Are we allowed to have silver or golden cross in the centre of
          Thronos? Isint it a plain wooden cross the right SOC tradition?

          2. Isint there an order for the number of candles on the holy
          Thronos? Looking around I am seeing from 2 candles to as many as 15
          candles in some churches. Is this right?

          There are much more to list out which needs the attention of the
          concerned, if not will only help to multiply in the future.

          Requesting prayers

          Shinu Jesus Abraham
          Member id # 2908

          --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. (Dr.) Fr. Mani Rajan wrote:
          >
          > Dear moderators,
          >

          >
          > It is sad that Syrian Orthodox Church Book stalls have started
          > selling items which were forbidden by our Church Fathers. I had
          to
          > tell this to some of our "leaders" to become more unpopular!
          >
        • Apu Jose
          Dear readers, I would like to thank Rev Fr Mani Rajan, Mr John Thomas, Mr Eldhose and Mr Shinu for responding to my posting. I request all of you who read this
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 2, 2008
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            Dear readers,

            I would like to thank Rev Fr Mani Rajan, Mr John Thomas, Mr Eldhose and Mr Shinu for responding to my posting.

            I request all of you who read this , to spread this teaching among the members of our Church. I guess at least in their respective parishes they will be able to bring about some difference .

            With prayers
            Apu Jose
            Ernakulam , Kerala
          • Dr.
            Dear moderators, 1. Are we allowed to have silver or golden cross in the centre of Thronos? Isint it a plain wooden cross the right SOC tradition? Wooden cross
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 2, 2008
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              Dear moderators,

              1. Are we allowed to have silver or golden cross in the centre of
              Thronos? Isint it a plain wooden cross the right SOC tradition?

              Wooden cross (empty budded cross or Easter cross) is our tradition.
              There can be additional ornamental golden or silver cross but a
              wooden cross is a must for it is symboic of the cross on which Christ
              was crucified.

              2. Isint there an order for the number of candles on the holy
              Thronos? Looking around I am seeing from 2 candles to as many as 15
              candles in some churches. Is this right?

              There is no documentary evidence about the number of candles to be
              placed on the altar (Anson, 1948). Moreover, it was not our practice
              until 10th or 11th century. However, Exodus 40:4; John 8:12; Psalm
              27:1; Matthew 25:1-13 are some of the Biblical references that allude
              to the use of candles (oil lamps) in the Church. The number of
              candles is supposed to be 12 symbolising the 12 Apostles. Since the
              Cross symbolises Christ, 13 candles (one at the centre) are not
              necessary. However, the practice varies with local traditions.
              Please note that Mor Dionysius Bar Saleebi (d. 1171) or Mose Bar
              Kipho (d. 903) did not mention about the practice in their
              commentaries.

              References
              Anson, P. F. (1948). Churches - Their plan and furnishing.
              Milwaukee: The Bruce Publishing Company.
              Mose Bar Kipho (1988). Church fathers - II (G.. Chediath, Trans.).
              Kottayam: OIRS.
              Dionysius Bar Saleebi (1990). Exposition of Liturgy (G. Chediath,
              Trans.). Kottayam: OIRS.

              Fr. Mani Rajan

              --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Shinu Jesus Abraham wrote:
              >
              > Greetings to All
              >
              > Thanks to Mr. Apu Jose for bringing up the subject. The problem is
              > defenitely as Rev.Fr. Mani Rajan mentioned - "WHO WILL BELL THE CAT"
              >
            • Shinu Jesus Abraham
              Greetings to all Thanks to achen for the detailed reply. But would like to know a bit further clarification. Which cross should be on the centre of the
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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                Greetings to all

                Thanks to achen for the detailed reply. But would like to know a bit
                further clarification. Which cross should be on the centre of the
                top-most step of holy thronos? Is it right to have 15+ candles on
                the holy thronos when we know that candles symbolises the 12
                Apostles?

                Shinu Jesus Abraham
                Member ID # 2908

                --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. (Dr.) Fr. Mani Rajan wrote:
                >
                > Dear moderators,
                >
                > 1. Are we allowed to have silver or golden cross in the centre of
                > Thronos? Isint it a plain wooden cross the right SOC tradition?
                >
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