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What is the Mar Thoma church?

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  • Larry Quintana
    Greetings, I came across a website called the Marthoma Syrian church? Here is the web link http://www.marthomasyrianchurch.org/ I was doing some reading
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 8, 2008
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      Greetings,

      I came across a website called the Marthoma Syrian church? Here is the
      web link

      http://www.marthomasyrianchurch.org/

      I was doing some reading Wikipedia and looking on some the sites and
      they say they are not in communion with the MJSOC or the OSCOTE. Who
      are they and what do they beleive? If anyone with greater knowledge in
      the forum please advise.

      Grace and peace in the love of Christ.
      Brother Larry
      # 4078
    • John Chacko
      Dear Larry The British in India as part of colonial ambition wanted to establish a protestant church in India loyal to Anglican church and spiritually enslave
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 9, 2008
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        Dear Larry

        The British in India as part of colonial ambition wanted to establish a protestant church in India loyal to Anglican church and spiritually enslave Indians. For this they started spreading seeds of reformation within Jacobite/Syrian Orthodox church in India(first church of world and India). (1*) Some clergy also supported British and finally a priest went to Patriarch in Syria asking him to be ordained as Jacobite Bishop,this bishop cheated Patriarch, (2*)as soon as he arrived India,he said he is a bishop and divided people within Syrian orthodox church asking to support him as he is right bishop and cut off interceding practice to saints and praying for departed.In utter chaios and no proper media to spread the true fact that this bishop was establishing a new syrian protestant church in India,many people in home town of bishop followed him and many church of Jacobites themselves started practising protestant faith, (3*) finally they started new church called Mar Thoma SYRIAN church with fictitious claim that it is on throne of St.Thomas.This refromed Jacobites kept same Syriac prayer copied from mother church but cutt of all prayers for dead and saints and filed law suits saying they are the original church and all wealth, church, institution, grant of mother church 'Jacobite syrian orthodox of India'should be given to them.

        Following this great schism, HH Patriarch Peter IV of Antioch came to India in 1876 and rejuvenated original Syrian orthodox church by new synods and separated reformed church from original church. Ever since both are separate church mother and daughter church.

        In short the syrian orthodox church was split by clergy and others within church for their personal gain and power in course of time promoting some controversial topic or doctrine of Christ.

        Rgds
        John Chacko
        ============================================
        Moderators note

        (1*)"Some clergy also supported British and finally a priest went to Patriarch"

        Dn.Mathews Palakunnath (He was Not a Priest) went to Mardin (Patriarchate).But Dn said to HH that he is a Priest. HH Elias II ordained Deacon Mathews as a Bishop and appointed him as the bishop Moosal Diocese. In the Statikon it is said; "Our beloved Father Mathai has peacefully reached us".

        (2*)"as soon as he arrived India,he said he is a bishop and divided people within Syrian orthodox church asking to support him as he is right bishop and cut off interceding practice to saints and praying for departed"

        Mathews Mor Athanasios used Syrian Orthodox Thaksa & practiced church traditions. Because of this disappointed Abraham Malpan (Leader of Reformers) said "it was better for him to be the bishop of his parish at Maramon only than to be the bishop of the church in Malankara in which the reformist ideas has no roof was not acceptable to the new bishop". He never denounced the supremacy of Antioch or violated the rites and rituals of the syrian church.

        (3) "finally they started new church called Mar Thoma SYRIAN church"

        Their church name was 'NAVEEKARANA SABHA' or Reformed Church. Later, I think earlies of 20th century they renamed it as Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar.
      • Rinu Sam
        The Syrian Jacobite Christians of Malankara (India) who joined with the Anglican Church of Europe in AD 1858 are now known as present Mar Thoma Syrian Church
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 9, 2008
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          The Syrian Jacobite Christians of Malankara (India) who joined with the
          Anglican Church of Europe in AD 1858 are now known as present Mar Thoma
          Syrian Church of India. They do not follow orthodoxy.

          Rinu Sam
          ID #4038

          --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Larry Quintana wrote:
          >
          > Greetings,
          >
          > I came across a website called the Marthoma Syrian church? Here is the
          > web link
          >
          > http://www.marthomasyrianchurch.org/
          >
        • Shinu Jesus Abraham
          Greetings to All Dear Mr. John Chacko, The Marthoma church atleast have a wooden chair of 3-4 centuries old in Thiruvalla. Compare that with the defenders of
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 11, 2008
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            Greetings to All

            Dear Mr. John Chacko, The Marthoma church atleast have a wooden
            chair of 3-4 centuries old in Thiruvalla. Compare that with the
            defenders of throne in Kottayam- it is much better because they are
            the one who is disrespect the saint the most. How? Go through the
            website of IOC and look for any mention of St. Thomas relics. Now
            just go through the below link.

            http://thomarel.tripod.com/

            Last week everybody celebrated St. Thomas day. Did anybody from IOC
            tried to understand the importance of that day? If the smart brains
            understand the importance of that day and accept that the relics of
            the saint it is like accepting the fact that the holy relics were
            transffered to edessa in 4th century and in 1965 it was gifted to
            Malankara by the Partriarch.

            http://www.syrianchurch.org/PZakka/biography.htm

            But how can it be accepted - They are propogating that the Church in
            India have the Antiochean connection only in 17th century? So the
            easier way to defend our position is....

            Now think of our saint Kochu Thirumeni's tomb. We all know the faith
            and tradition he followed and taught. How to disrespect the saint?
            Use all the penny & contribution from that "Bannnaram" to close the
            churches of SOC and to drive them to courts. I just pray they
            atleast read the one Kalpana from Kochu Thirumeni regarding "how
            holy the people should be those who serve the church and how its
            finances to be handled".

            Let us only pray "Please forgive them for they dont know what they
            are doing"

            Requesting prayers

            Shinu Jesus Abraham
            Member id # 2908

            --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, John Chacko wrote:
            >
            > Dear Larry
            >
            , (3*) finally they started new church called Mar Thoma SYRIAN
            church with fictitious claim that it is on throne of St.Thomas.
            >
            > In short the syrian orthodox church was split by clergy and others
            within church for their personal gain and power in course of time
            promoting some controversial topic or doctrine of Christ.
            >
            > Rgds
            > John Chacko
          • Alex Thomas.
            Dn. Mathews Palakkunnathu – A Marthomite s interpretation of the history. Dear All, In the response to `What is Marthoma Church? by Mr. John Chacko, the
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 16, 2008
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              Dn. Mathews Palakkunnathu – A Marthomite's interpretation of the
              history.

              Dear All,

              In the response to `What is Marthoma Church?' by Mr. John Chacko, the Moderators of the forum had appended some notes and I request a clarification regarding two things in the Note (1) of the Moderator.

              1) It is given that the nephew of Palakkunnathu Malpan, who was send to HH Patriarch, was not a Priest and was only a Deacon, but Dn Mathews lied to HH that he is a Priest. The historians from the Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar also admit that when Mathews was
              send to Mardin he was a Deacon only. But they narrate the incident
              as brief as possible like Dn Mathews was send to Patriarch in Mardin
              and Patriarch ordained him as Metropolitan with the name Mathews Mor
              Athnasius. In the Malayalam book `Bharathathile kristhusabhayum marthoma sabhayude samkshiptha charithravum' (ie. The Christian
              Church in India and a brief history of Marthoma Church) published by
              CSS Thiruvalla in 1973, the author HE Dr. Yoohanon Marthoma the then
              head of the Marthoma Church says… p44 of Sixth Impression… **
              {Abraham Malpante bhagineyan oru mathews shemmassan annu madras
              collegil padikkunnundayirunnu. Antiocha Pathriarkeesinte
              aasthanamaya mardeenilekku pokan nirdesham labhichathanusarichu
              shemmassan aapalkkaramaya oru dheerkhayathrakku orumbettu
              mardeenilethi. Pathriarkese adhehathe dayapoorvam sveekarichu oru
              kollam thannodothu parkkananuvadhikkukayum athinu shesham Mathews
              Mor Athanasiose enna peril malankara methrapolithayayi vazhichu
              thirichayakkukayum cheythu}**… So what the Marthoma version seems,
              though Dn Mathews was send to Mardin as a Deacon only, the Patriarch
              send him back to Malnkara as a Metropolitan and the titles in
              between these, like Priest, Rabban etc might have received by him
              from the Patriarch or any Metropolitan under the Patriarch. They
              also points to the thing that Dn Mathews stayed in `Sheema'(Middle
              East) for more than an year and he might have received the titles in
              between.

              I understand here is the relevance of the words in the Sthathikon
              which says "Our beloved Father Mathai has peacefully reached us".
              When I asked a person from the Marthoma Church about this he takes
              the stand that the words Father in the Sthathikon is wrongly
              interpreted and the word Father denotes the then(at the time of
              ordaining him as a bishop) title of Fr. Mathews Palakkunnathu. For
              this my Marthomite friend quotes an example from the usual words we
              find in the life history of our High Priests. It is like this… When
              we narrate the life history of any of our High Priest say HH
              Patriarch, we will find like this "during the childhood itself HIS
              HOLINESS was very keen in church and religious activities" the
              Malayalam will be like "kuttikkalathu thanne PARISHUDHA PITHAVU
              sabha deivika karyangalil atheeva thalparanayirunnu." What my
              Marthoma friend points out from this is that though we are referring
              to a period during which the person is not a High Priest (ie his
              childhood) we say Parishudha Pithavu (His Holiness) as we usually
              refer the person based on his present title. He interprets the
              word "Father" in Sthathikon in the same way, like when Palakkunnathu
              Mathews Shemmachan reached before the Patriarch he was a deacon only
              and during his stay with the Patriarch Dn was ordained with the
              required titles and it is only that HH Patriarch used the present
              title Fr (just like similar to the example quoted) even though HH
              was referring to a period in the past (ie the time when Dn. Mathews
              reached Mardin).

              Here I request help from any one having good knowledge about history
              in those periods.

              i) is there any other points in the Sthathikon/ or any other
              evidence elsewhere which proves that Dn Mathews was not ordained as
              Priest by anyone in the Syrian Orthodox Church and he lied to HH
              that he is a Priest though he was a Deacon only? Where can we find
              the full text of that Sthathikon? The Marthomites argue that why we
              don't publish the Sthathikon in full but uses only word by word
              interpretation is because it have clues denying the Jacobite's
              assertions about the Patriarchal authority over the Malankara
              Church. So if a copy of this Sthathikon is available in the Web or
              appended to any available books about the church I request the
              concerned to post that also.

              ii)Can we accept the Marthomite claim that Dn Mathews was
              ordained as a priest in Sheema(Middle East) and the word Father
              denotes the then title only (based on a common usage as narrated in
              the example)? Or is my friend wrong in his interpretations, most
              probably may be his own, not supported by learned leaders of the
              Marthoma Church. Is there any formal acceptance by any historians of
              Marthoma Church that Dn Mathews presented himself before the
              Patriarch as a Priest though he was a Deacon only or stating in any
              other way that HH Patriarch ordained Dn Mathews and not Fr.Mathews
              as a Metropolitan?

              2)It is also said in note 1) of the moderators that "HH Elias II
              ordained Deacon Mathews as a Bishop and appointed him as the bishop
              Moosal Diocese." I request a clarification regarding where is the
              place Moosal. Is it the ancient place Moosal in Middle East? Is it
              the present Mosul in Iraq ? I request a clarification because of two
              things.

              i) If HE Mathews Mor Athnasius was appointed as a bishop of a
              diocese in Middle East how Mor Athnasius happened to come back to
              Malankara and act as the Metropolitan of Malankara? Or is it like he
              was appointed as the Bishop of Mosul Arch Diocese having a greater
              boundary extending upto Malankara?

              ii) Depending on i) above If Mathews Mor Athnasius was not intended
              to act in Malankara in any manner, is there any other good evidence
              to suggest that before reaching Malankara Mor Athnasius was acting
              as a bishop of a diocese in Middle East. If so why we haven't
              pointed to that or at least to the fact that Mor Athnasius from
              Malankara was appointed as a bishop of a diocese in Middle East,
              even though we were asked the question for years by the opposite
              faction "can/could anyone from India ever become a High Priest of
              the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church to administer any thing/anyone
              other than the Indian Diaspora?"

              I may be wrong in understanding the subject or framing my own
              interpretations but I request corrections/clarifications from
              learned members.

              Regards,

              Alex Thomas.
              # 0971

              ** The meaning of the Malayalam text can be translated as………
              {The nephew of Abraham Malpan, one Deacon Mathews was studying in
              Madras College at that time. As he got instruction to go to the
              Patriarch of Antioch in Mardin, he prepared for a dangerous long
              journey and reached Mardin. Patriarch received him and allowed him
              to stay with HH for one year and then send him back ordaining him as
              Malankara Metropolitan with the name Mathews Mor Athnasius.}**
              --------------------------------------------------------------------

              --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, John Chacko wrote:
              >
              > Dear Larry
              >
              > The British in India as part of colonial ambition wanted to
              establish a protestant church in India loyal to Anglican church and
              spiritually enslave Indians. For this they started spreading seeds
              of reformation within Jacobite/Syrian Orthodox church in India(first
              church of world and India).
            • John Chacko Korah
              Dear Mr.Shinu   I know,thats why I wrote many Syriac clergy within church created schism for their personal gain violating all christian commands. I was
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 17, 2008
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                Dear Mr.Shinu
                 
                I know,thats why I wrote many Syriac clergy within church created
                schism for their personal gain violating all christian commands.
                I was refering to political group who through schism formed
                Orthodox syrian church (Indian orthodox)
                 
                In short I know much more of their antichristian deeds,but the
                point to be noted is 'all schism for personal gain within Syriac orthodox church created by false prophets within church for power were carried out of 2 important claims 1) a throne story for blind people to believe and 2) use of Syriac in liturgy and in official name.No schism got any popular support without a throne story and use of few Syriac in liturgy and name "Syrian' in official name of church.All daughter church who separated from us have official name 'Syrian' attached to their name even if they are Catholic/protestant/Indian orthodox ,today.
                 
                The moment they delete this name " Syrian' that will be the end
                of people who support  them,so any historian can himself find
                who are genuine prophets and who are false.
                 
                Rgds
                 
                John Chacko Korah
                 
                ========================
                From the desk of the Moderator:
                Dear Korah
                Please sign your messages with member ID. If not having a member ID, please send your details including contact number to moderators
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              • Cijoy Varghese
                Please don t create e new dispute with Marthomites. Their Marthoma Matropolitan had attended one of our ceremony in Kandanad Syrian Church, H.E was speaking of
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 20, 2008
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                  Please don't create e new dispute with Marthomites. Their Marthoma Matropolitan had attended one of our ceremony in Kandanad Syrian Church, H.E was speaking of our leaders with highest regard. Their bishops even don't take the name of Ignatios as a respect to our Patriarch

                  Cijoy Varghese
                  # 4067

                  In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Alex Thomas. wrote:
                  >
                  > Dn. Mathews Palakkunnathu – A Marthomite's interpretation of the
                  > history.
                  >
                  > Dear All,
                  >
                  > In the response to `What is Marthoma Church?' by Mr. John Chacko,
                  the Moderators of the forum had appended some notes and I request a
                  clarification regarding two things in the Note (1) of the Moderator.
                  >
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