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  • Dipu George
    I do have one question which i have been trying to seek. Does the Syrian Orthodox Church consider the priesthood of the Indian Orthodox Church as valid? I am
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 5 12:47 AM
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      I do have one question which i have been trying to seek.

      Does the Syrian Orthodox Church consider the priesthood of the Indian Orthodox Church as valid?

      I am asking this because if my memory serves me right The Late Lamented Patriarch HH Yacoub III had excommunicated all their bishops in one of His Bulls.

      How seriously does the Syrian Orthodox Church treat an Excommunication?

      Is it considered heretic to let the Indian Orthodox Church Priest to partake in wedding ceremonies etc? and during marriage with females from that Church, is it necessary for them to undergo Baptism from our church before getting married to one of ours?

      I would be obliged if someone can throw light into these matters, which in my opinion, many amongst us have turned a blind eye because of mutual convenience in many spiritual and materialistic convenience.

      Regards

      Dipu George
      St George Simhasana Church
      Tiruvalla
      0174
    • Padhikan
      Dear Brother Dipu, The answer for your first question is a BIG No. Unless and until the rebellious group, the so called Indian Orthodox, returns to the mother
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 6 10:12 PM
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        Dear Brother Dipu,

        The answer for your first question is a BIG No. Unless and until the
        rebellious group, the so called Indian Orthodox, returns to the
        mother church there should not be any consideration to call their
        group as church OR accept their personnel who copy our vestments &
        liturgy as sacrament based priests. Because Priesthood according to
        the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church is a Holy Sacrament that is
        administered by laying on hand by a legitimate hierarchical
        authority. That group lost that legitimacy not only once but twice
        during the last centuary. To me, "the neighbor's son who wears the
        stolen dress of my son will not be considered as my child" and I hope
        brother Dipu understands my point. This is my opinion and I invite
        other Forum members to comment on this.

        The answers for your other questions will be posted soon.

        Peace.

        Padhikan
        #0476

        --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Dipu George wrote:
        >
        > I do have one question which i have been trying to seek.
        >
        > Does the Syrian Orthodox Church consider the priesthood of the
        Indian Orthodox Church as valid?
        >
      • S Chandy
        Hi Dibu, As they dont have the apostolic blessings, we should not consider thier priests for holy sacrements, but our people are blind in this as we both have
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 7 10:50 AM
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          Hi Dibu,

          As they dont have the apostolic blessings, we should not consider
          thier priests for holy sacrements, but our people are blind in this
          as we both have the same prayer and worship system.

          regds
          S Chandy

          --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Dipu George wrote:
          >
          > I do have one question which i have been trying to seek.
          >
          > Does the Syrian Orthodox Church consider the priesthood of the
          Indian Orthodox Church as valid?

          ========================
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        • Rev. Fr. George Thankachan
          Dear Mr.Padhikan, You are badly mistaken! To the question, whether IOC and SOC have inter- communion, I will and must say, the answer is a BIG YES. Though both
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 7 2:33 PM
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            Dear Mr.Padhikan,
            You are badly mistaken! To the question, whether IOC and SOC have inter- communion, I will and must say, the answer is a BIG YES. Though both differ in matters of administration, they belong to the very same family of the Oriental Orthodox Churches. A learnt leader of SOC wouldn't tell what you had said. Why should you make it dark by shutting the eyes? If you say IOC is an anathematised church, you will have to say that St.Thomas- the Apostle of Christ and HH.Ignatios Abded Messiah Patriarch who came to India to establish the 'Catholicate of the East' in 1912 also excommunicants. Do you agree with this? Why do you mislead poor people of your Church and invite curse upon you from heaven?

            Be a sane and saint!

            With Prayers,
            George achen, Ireland.
            Fr.T.George, St.Peter's & St.Paul's IOC,Drogheda.
          • Cijoy Varghese
            Read your bible.,creation of Indian Orthodox church is also part of wider jesus plan that is way after all efforts we cannot destroy it. In history there were
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 8 8:54 AM
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              Read your bible.,creation of Indian Orthodox church is also part of wider jesus plan that is way after all efforts we cannot destroy it. In history there were when each faction thought they cuuld completly destoy other faction but jesus has not allowed it, accept gods will move on. I was a church fanatic but jesus has shown me ,all churches are beautifull plants of jesus garden created for heavenly purpose

              Cijoy Varghese
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            • Abeesh Jose
              Cathoilicate established in 1912 by a excommunicated patriarch is not valid as per canon of church. In 1964 only the catholicose of eastwas consecrated by the
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 8 7:56 PM
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                Cathoilicate established in 1912 by a excommunicated patriarch is
                not valid as per canon of church.

                In 1964 only the catholicose of eastwas consecrated by the patriarch.

                Dear Fr. do not write lies in this forum. You have Lot of other forums and you may have people who will support this. We are true believres who dont want to mix water in our belief.

                --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Fr. George Thankachan wrote:
                >
                > Dear Mr.Padhikan,
                > You are badly mistaken! To the question, whether IOC and SOC have
                >inter- communion, I will and must say, the answer is a BIG YES.

                ========================
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              • T. J Eldose
                Dear Rev Father George from Ireland,,,,,,! You belongs to not syrian orthodox which recgonizes the Holy Patriarch. Why you try to encroach and justify ur side
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 9 2:19 AM
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                  Dear Rev Father George from Ireland,,,,,,!

                  You belongs to not syrian orthodox which recgonizes the Holy
                  Patriarch.

                  Why you try to encroach and justify ur side on this site which is for
                  those who Respect and Reveres H.H.Patriarch.>
                  Is this a shame or what..?
                  Its clear what u people did in Ireland..!
                  Dont be telling justice as your people wud not agree the way Fr.Kozhy
                  viadyan did..!

                  Your church had accepted Bishops who throwed away his Parents,Mentors
                  and faith just for Power from this Mother of Church. Your Cyril
                  Ramban was trying to tarnish H.B. with Gangeter level comments..?
                  Is that a shame for your Church.?

                  What is the difference between your church principles and Protestant
                  who always quotes verses from Bible here and there. Protestants never
                  read a Bible from begning to end. Your approach to faith, Practise
                  and Succession of True Relion is no difference to that..! You have
                  accepted some bishops from church history where as you find it hard
                  to accepts others who has same ordination that you have..!

                  What a Diplomacy..?

                  T. J Eldose

                  --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Fr. George Thankachan wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Mr.Padhikan,
                  > You are badly mistaken! To the question, whether IOC and SOC have
                  inter- communion, I will and must say, the answer is a BIG YES.

                  ========================
                  From the desk of the Moderator:
                  Please sign your messages with member ID. If not having a member ID, please send your details including contact number to moderators
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                • George Varghese
                  Dear Fr. George, If the answer is BIG YES: 1. Please explain the apostolic blessing IOC had from St.Thomas - the Apostle of Christ. 2. If the difference is
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 9 5:16 AM
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                    Dear Fr. George,

                    If the answer is BIG YES:

                    1. Please explain the apostolic blessing IOC had from St.Thomas -
                    the Apostle of Christ.

                    2. If the difference is only on administration matters like you
                    said, why IOC can not agree the spiritual leadership of Moran Mor
                    Ignatius Zakka I Iwas, the 122nd successor to St. Peter in the
                    Apostolic See of Antioch.


                    Best Regards,
                    George Maliyil
                    South Florida

                    --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Fr. George Thankachan wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Mr.Padhikan,
                    > You are badly mistaken! To the question, whether IOC and SOC have
                    inter- communion, I will and must say, the answer is a BIG YES.

                    ========================
                    From the desk of the Moderator:
                    Please sign your messages with member ID. If not having a member ID, please send your details including contact number to moderators
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                  • Pathhikan
                    Dear All, Here we go again ! I was trying to confirm the belief of my fellow faithful of Syrian Orthodox Church from Thiruvalla, Dipu George. Here comes one
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 9 12:49 PM
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                      Dear All,

                      Here we go again ! I was trying to confirm the belief of my fellow
                      faithful of Syrian Orthodox Church from Thiruvalla, Dipu George. Here
                      comes one Rev.Thankachan from no where to teach us something. I want
                      to respect all fellow humans as wonderful creations of my God. Some
                      people never learn that they should not get into somebody else's
                      kitchen matters or not to loose respect. They poke their noses into
                      the affairs of others shamelessly. I think this person is a partner
                      of that same crime in the attempt of closing the hole with darkness
                      (the malayalam saying is: 'Iruttu kondu ottayadakkuka').

                      This person threatens us like the Pentecostals that if someone
                      doesn't agree with their self-proclaimed sainthood, all are going to
                      be cursed. The history denotes how the deposed Patriarch was brought
                      to India in 1912 to satisfy the vested interest of the rebels and the
                      curse came upon them since that time onwards is still staying with
                      them very well. Dear brothers & sisters, don't be trapped by these
                      kinds of propagandas and calculated hermeneutics. These rebels have
                      been playing this kind of gimmickry to deceive our innocent faithful
                      so long and now they are slowly realizing that the Holy Church of our
                      forefathers is beyond their grab while they are still in their
                      pathetic mess. We don't need anybody's certification to prove the
                      stand of the Holy Church. I challenge Rev.Thankachan to try to take
                      up with his superiors to solve the administrative dispute he is
                      talking about if it is that simple as he states. These people are
                      insolent and callous ones pulling strings from behind to make things
                      much more worse and insoluble. I ask this person to click on this
                      link and read the latest news:
                      URL:http://www.syrianchurch.org/News.html . Tell me, is this
                      administrative dispute OR pure goondaism, greed, thirst for power &
                      money, roguishness/debauchery or whatever?

                      I am talking about their causing of the latest episode at our
                      Kadamattom St.George's Church. Read the news, think well and
                      comment. Administrative dispute! Mannamkatta !

                      My fellow Faithful, don't be fooled or give face value to their bogus
                      advises. These disguised personnel will appear everywhere and say
                      that our ancient Holy Church and their new trap are the same.
                      Without accepting each other and allowing each other to live or to
                      let live peacefully WE HAVE NO ASSOCIATION or Inter-communion with
                      the so called Indian Orthodox. Anybody thinks or acts otherwise are
                      ignorant. St.Thomas neither provided anybody any vestments,
                      liturgical items nor throne but pure Word of God. It is true that
                      our forefathers & mothers were convinced by the Saint's Gospel and
                      all Nazranis of India can claim that heritage. The history says how
                      the Holy Syrian Orthodox Church traditions and liturgy played in
                      sustaining christianity in Malankara through our unwavering faith.
                      The truth is crystal clear. Nobody has to teach us. Where the truth
                      stands there the Mighty One dwells.

                      One word to our dearest Moderators: It is about time to purge these
                      fake ones from our Forum. Entertaining these persons will only confuse our innocent faithful. (I understand the policy of transparency of our Forum). If we happen to loose one faithful to the rebels because of our transparent policy, we will have to answer to the Holy Syrian Orthodox Church.

                      I don't intend to hurt anyone's feelings. But please restrain
                      yourself from poking your nose in other's affairs and you will be
                      happy and peaceful.

                      Peace.

                      Padhikan
                      #0476

                      --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Fr. George Thankachan wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Mr.Padhikan,
                      > You are badly mistaken! To the question, whether IOC and SOC have
                      inter- communion, I will and must say, the answer is a BIG YES.
                    • Abin
                      Dear Beloved Jacobites, It is fair that some topic can discuss and some not for discussion but to keep. So for this topic we do not want to have a discussion.
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 9 5:07 PM
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                        Dear Beloved Jacobites,

                        It is fair that some topic can discuss and some not for discussion but to keep. So for this topic we do not want to have a discussion. This is not a matter for discussion.  This is a faith of Jacobites. Otherwise we can start a discussion from scratch, about topics like "Who is GOD ? Can we touch GOD? Is soul there? an anybody show the soul ?" like that.....

                        Before reading please remember that Earlier Church have 3 thrones ANTIOCH, ROME and ALEXANDRIA. Later Constantinople a throne was added. Dont have enough space to write about all in detail.

                        The members of Universal Syriac Orthodox Church are not permitted to have communion with anyone who excommunicated from HOLY CHURCH. Those who are excommunicated from Universal Syriac Orthodox of ANTIOCH, even if they use Fr., HE , HB any thing before their names are not going to get power of holy episcopacy from holy sprit. There is no doubt at all.

                        Coming to the case of marriage. Holy matrimony is also a sacrement, so no one from Jacobite Church is permitted to marry outside church. I know there are things happening. I am repeatdly saying, this should have to stop. Jacobite priests should not give permission letter (kalyana kury)for these type of marriages.

                        Again the case of baptism, If any of the Jacobites parents trying to go to any groups/imitators named as church and believe that they can baptise their childern here and there. Surely those parents are also out of Holy Church of ANTIOCH(As per the faith and order from H.H Yakoob 3rd Patriarch - Those who are joining with excommunicated ones are also excommunicated). That is just a bathing and putting some oil by some imitators. Holy sprit will not come in these cases.

                        The Holy Sprit will come and the child will join to Holy Church only if the authorised person(those who have the priesthood of Holy Church) have to do the prayers.
                        -----------------------------
                        Dear priests of Jacobite Syriac Church,
                        As you people are the Father (spiritual dad/rep. of Lord) of a church, its your duty to keep your children. We believe the faith to HOLY ANTIOCH is an integral part for the spiritual life, because this is the Holy Church of our lord Jesus Christ. So please think all our church priests, If you people allow our church members to go outside our church, then what is its meaning? what common people can read this,- internally as "yup my dear son/daughter you can move out from the Holy church of our lord Jesus Christ, I permitted you". I dont know how our Lord reply for this. May God give all of us to keep the HOLY faith of ANTIOCH. So please My Dear Fathers of our church, i am begging you all to please stop to give permission for this type of marriages. I am just writing this, i am not a person to advice our Fathers,  but a simple thought that seems a big sin, that violate one of the base faith of our church.

                        If we are not keeping the faith in its proper manner then it will put our church again in worst conditions.
                        -------------------------------------

                        Somebody from Ireland is trying to advice over here. Just remember, we know what is the history of Holy Church of Jesus Christ, What is H.H Patriarch, Catholicates, Bishops, Priests, Deacons, and common people, and their duties. We dont need your teaching. We have Bishops and priests to advice us and to clean our sin. If anybody wear some clothes that is similar to the wardrobe of the Bishop's/Priest's, the Holy Church of God knows, those are the imitators that are trying to make the faithful to move out from Holy Church. We all are praying to Our God that never make a situation to hear these people.

                        And at last i am advising you, if you want to get into Holy church of God, do repent and remove the wardrobe that you put for imitation and receive the baptism from Holy Church, stay along with the common people and work for Holy Church. After that if God calls you,  then receive the priesthood from Holy Church. This is the procedure. If you don't want to get into Holy Church, just discard this.

                        I dont want to take this as a matter to discuss. but this is a base line faith of Universal Syriac Church of ANTIOCH.

                        Also not expect any reply as advise or anything those are not Jacobites because THIS IS A FAITH FOR US.

                        If any of my dear jacobites wants to write aganist this, before write, please read atleast about St.Elias 3rd Bava, the salmosa of St.Gregorius Geevarghees Tirumeny, St. Athanisus(Valiya tirumeny), read what St. Eldho Baselius Bava told to Mor Ivanius.  Again tempting to write then first write against these Holy fathers at the end write reply for what i wrote.

                        Also to my learned church members, if anything is wrong what i wrote from the teachings of our Holy fathers, please reply.

                        May God Bless all of us to keep the faith of our Holy ANTIOCH.

                        To moderators,

                        I have a request, earlier i wrote about one subject. But you people cut some part and publish some part, and replied me about the reason that in this forum no need of any arguments. What happened is when you cut some part, the core content that i wrote was lost at that time. After that now i am writing because i tried only to read, but i am helpless for not to write now.

                        I just write because of our people to keep the true faith of our ANTIOCH. So please either publish full content or discard, then i will not write to the forum any more.

                        Abin
                        St Mary's Cathedral Valya Paly
                        3257
                      • Rev. Fr.T.George
                        Dear Mr.T.J.Eldos, God has sent me as a messenger. And I have come to tell you people about the Truth. It is my Dharma(obligation) to let you people know about
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 9 5:19 PM
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                          Dear Mr.T.J.Eldos,

                          God has sent me as a messenger. And I have come to tell you people about the Truth. It is my Dharma(obligation) to let you people know about the Truth. It is God's will that you people should know of the Truth who fumble in darkness of ignorance.

                          ================================
                          Dear Abeesh,

                          Would you please tell me on what reason was HH Ignatios Abded Messaih patriarch excommunicated? I want to know what happend to his holiness after having returned from India.

                          ===================================
                          Dear Mr.George,

                          You will get the answer for your first question if you read any book on 'Ancient History of Christianity in India'. For your second question, please take note that we -IOC- have no delicacy in accepting the spiritual leadership of Patriarch of Antioch as part of our courtesy. But we differ only in terms of temporal matters. We object to the unnecesary indulgence of Patriarchs in internal administration of the Malankara Sabha. A foster father can never claim
                          the place of the real(biological) father.

                          Hope you understand me.

                          With love, prayers and blessings,
                          George achen, Ireland.
                          Fr.T.George
                          St.Peter's & St.Paul's IOC,Drogheda
                        • Sajy Thannikkottu
                          Answer to the Question 1: Read SOCM digests http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/12612 Answer to the Question 2: IOC accepts HH Ignatius Zakka I
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 9 9:04 PM
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                            Answer to the Question 1: Read SOCM digests
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/12612

                            Answer to the Question 2: IOC accepts HH Ignatius Zakka I Iwas as its
                            spiritual leader and the Patriarch mentioned in the 1'st Dypthic of
                            MSOC is no one other than SOC Patriarch. As of my understanding MSOC
                            Catholicos will receive SOC Patrirach to the MSOC head quarters if SOC
                            is interested. I am writing this sentence referring to HH Marthoma
                            Mathews II's effort to meet HH Ignatus Zakka Iwas.

                            Regards

                            Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
                            # 2912


                            --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, George Varghese wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Fr. George,
                            >
                            > If the answer is BIG YES:
                            >
                            > 1. Please explain the apostolic blessing IOC had from St.Thomas -
                            > the Apostle of Christ.
                          • Sherin Chandy
                            Hi If IOC is a part of Oriental Orthodox Churches, then why its doing unethical things? Why IOC did not attend for the fifth meeting of the International Joint
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 10 2:51 AM
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                              Hi

                              If IOC is a part of Oriental Orthodox Churches, then why its doing unethical things? Why IOC did not attend for the fifth meeting of the International Joint Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches took place in St. Aphrem Syrian Orthodox Monastery in Maarrat Saydnaya, Damascus-Syria, January 27 to February 2, 2008. The reason is given in the bottom of the page below
                              http://www.syrianchurch.org/

                              S Chandy
                              ========================
                              From the desk of the Moderator:
                              Please sign your messages with member ID. If not having a member ID, please send your details including contact number to moderators
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                            • Cijoy Varghese
                              Dear Sir Indian orthodox church still prays for patriach holding throne of antioch in qurbana as our holy father still has not officially removed it. If you
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 10 9:10 AM
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                                Dear Sir

                                Indian orthodox church still prays for patriach holding throne of antioch in qurbana as our holy father still has not officially removed it. If you call some one your father you have to obey him. Disobeying a god created authority is a sin when you actually believe trust he is one.

                                If you get aopportunity read autobiography of mamman mappila published by malayala manorama , copy of which is available in ekm public library. He says this all started in old seminary church of kottayam. When vattashery metropolitian was the malankara metropolitian then patriach had come for a apolistic visit staying in the church terrible difference of opinion occured excommunicated metropolitian which was held by court. Both faction took help of local gundas aana varkey whom orthodox faction consider a matyr was one among them.

                                A small meeting under excomunicated bishop was called. They considered joining greek orthodox church or roman church or any other church. He describes that he & many prominent orthodoxians had almost vowed that they will liberate church legaly & spiritualy from antiochian influence alltrough these years they & their sons have fought with this aim in mind with sucess. Vattashery thirumenys excommunication was revoked by St. Ignatious patriach, when thirumeni visited holly father . I had read in another book how it was done. Sorry I don't remember auther but it was published by book trust of india. He was given a holy cross which he was asked to keep in hand through out holy qurbana.

                                Thus ended first quarrell. Even thirumeni was surprised. This is strictly for pvt information not for any publication I have just learned a big really big case is going to be put by orthodox faction please pray for gods guidance so that cloud will go away

                                Cijoy Varghese
                                # 4067
                              • Abraham Kurian
                                Dear Sajy, Ideally a son should go and meet the father at father s house or at the very minimum invite the father to the son s home. Statements like MSOC
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 11 10:03 PM
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                                  Dear Sajy,

                                  Ideally a son should go and meet the father at father's house or at
                                  the very minimum invite the father to the son's home.

                                  Statements like "MSOC Catholicos will receive SOC Patrirach to the
                                  MSOC head quarters if SOC is interested." reveal attitudes and
                                  intentions clearly.

                                  And it is really funny to hear abt your earlier Catholicose's efforts
                                  to meet HH Ignatius Zakka I Iwas.

                                  Just to remind you of the strenuous efforts put in to meet HH the
                                  Patriarch.

                                  >> Filing proxy cases in Kerala courts by non christian individuals.
                                  (wonder who suggested this brainy idea to him)
                                  >> Taking out ads in news papers about how there is no relation to HH
                                  the Patriarch
                                  >> Declaring so in interviews with every media who cared to carry it.

                                  In spite of such 'unceasing' and 'tireless' efforts from your
                                  Catholicos, it must be the work of God not to let this 'reception' happen.

                                  Regards
                                  Abraham Kurian
                                  Id 1011

                                  --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Sajy Thannikkottu wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Answer to the Question 1: Read SOCM digests
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/12612
                                  >
                                  > Answer to the Question 2: IOC accepts HH Ignatius Zakka I Iwas as its
                                  > spiritual leader and the Patriarch mentioned in the 1'st Dypthic of
                                  > MSOC is no one other than SOC Patriarch. As of my understanding MSOC
                                  > Catholicos will receive SOC Patrirach to the MSOC head quarters if SOC
                                  > is interested. I am writing this sentence referring to HH Marthoma
                                  > Mathews II's effort to meet HH Ignatus Zakka Iwas.
                                • S Chandy
                                  Hi Abin, You are right, I too put a same kind of topic about restricting our marriages with in our own church but after that also we can see matrimonial digest
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 11 10:45 PM
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                                    Hi Abin,

                                    You are right, I too put a same kind of topic about restricting our marriages with in our own church but after that also we can see matrimonial digest in this site itself are asking for alliance from anybody!!! PATHETIC, may GOD bless us...

                                    regds
                                    S Chandy

                                    ========================
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                                    Dear Sherin
                                    Please sign your messages with member ID. If not having a member ID, please send your details including contact number to moderators
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                                  • Issac K Joseph
                                    Dear Achan Please read the Madopedesasaraganl (Original) written by Vattaseril Thirumeni, you will get the answer to your question. Vattaseril Thirumeni was
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 11 11:42 PM
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                                      Dear Achan

                                      Please read the Madopedesasaraganl (Original) written by Vattaseril
                                      Thirumeni, you will get the answer to your question.

                                      Vattaseril Thirumeni was fully aware of the excommunication of
                                      Patriarch Ignatius Abded Messaih, that is the only reason Thirumeni
                                      did not went to the excommunicated patriarch for his the ordination
                                      instead Thirumeni went to the legal patriarch.

                                      Vattaseril Thirumeni was fully aware the validity of the
                                      excommunication of Patriarch Ignatios Abded Messaih, that was the
                                      reason Thirumeni did not attend the ordination and enthronement of
                                      the Catholicose at Niranam.

                                      Vattaseril Thirumeni was fully aware about the legally enthroned
                                      patriarch and the excommunication issued from the throne, that is the
                                      reason Thirumeni did not use red rob until the lifting of his
                                      excommunication by the patriarch.

                                      Vattaseril Thirumeni was fully aware about the legally enthroned
                                      patriarch and the excommunication of Thirumeni, that is the reason he
                                      accepted the lifting of Thirumeni's excommunication from Manjinikara
                                      Bava.

                                      If the reason for the excommunication of Patriarch Ignatius Abded
                                      Messaih is not know th the latter stage, this is not the problem of
                                      the history rather it is the problem of HIS-STORY.

                                      Dear Achan, Vattaseril Thirumeni is a declared saint of your church,
                                      please try to learn from him.

                                      Now if your want to know about, what happened to Patriarch Ignatius
                                      Abded Messaih after he returned from Malankara, please go through the
                                      articles of Indian Orthodox herald.

                                      In Christ
                                      Issac K Joseph
                                      Member Id No: 0917

                                      --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Fr.T.George wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Abeesh,
                                      >
                                      > Would you please tell me on what reason was HH Ignatios Abded
                                      Messaih patriarch excommunicated? I want to know what happend to his
                                      holiness after having returned from India.
                                      >
                                    • Johnson
                                      Dear brother, Shlomo The term IOC itself is not an offical one though they use it. The real name according to 1934 canon! is MOSC. It is true that the altar
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 11 11:48 PM
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                                        Dear brother,
                                        Shlomo

                                        The term 'IOC' itself is not an offical one though they use it. The
                                        real name according to 1934 canon! is MOSC. It is true that the
                                        altar boy or deacon reads out the name of Holy Patriarch in the 1'st
                                        dypthic but only GOD knows whether the celebrant make the cross and
                                        pray for him. Why I say this because they argue that as per their
                                        1934 canon the present patriarch is not recognised. The messenger!!
                                        from GOD, Fr. George Thankachan from Ireland has declared this in
                                        one of his postings in their forum which was reproduced in this
                                        forum by Dn. Joel Jacob of USA. This type of hollow sacraments and
                                        prayers are the basic differences between SOC and MOSC.

                                        In his love

                                        Johnson
                                        #2335.

                                        --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Cijoy Varghese wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Dear Sir
                                        >
                                        > Indian orthodox church still prays for patriach holding throne of
                                        antioch in qurbana as our holy father still has not officially
                                        removed it. If you call some one your father you have to obey him.
                                        Disobeying a god created authority is a sin when you actually
                                        believe trust he is one.
                                        >
                                      • Abeesh Jose
                                        Dear father from ireland, answers for you... SOOORRRRY IF I HURT YOUUUUU IOC seeing patraiarch of antioch is like the following way a son decsribing about his
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 12 12:32 AM
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                                          Dear father from ireland,
                                          answers for you...

                                          SOOORRRRY IF I HURT YOUUUUU

                                          IOC seeing patraiarch of antioch is like the following way a son
                                          decsribing about his father......

                                          He is not head of the church. But we are entiled to all the
                                          propertiies in his name. Like a son who dont care and love his father but want his properties.

                                          Like a son who claims 'tradition , family name , goodwill belief of
                                          his father but denies him,. LIKE WISE IOC following the same dreescode rituals liturgy etc...

                                          But when some people question IOC you are answer is like that, malankara church was in need and patriarch helped.

                                          It will be like this.... mother wanted a child so the father was
                                          called for day . so he cannot be treated as father.

                                          Abeesh Jose

                                          --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Fr.T.George wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Dear Abeesh,
                                          >
                                          > Would you please tell me on what reason was HH Ignatios Abded
                                          Messaih patriarch excommunicated? I want to know what happend to his
                                          holiness after having returned from India.
                                          >

                                          ========================
                                          From the desk of the Moderator:
                                          Dear Abeesh
                                          Please sign your messages with member ID. If not having a member ID, please send your details including contact number to moderators
                                          (SOCM-FORUM-owner@yahoogroups.com) and obtain a member ID BEFORE POSTING ANY MORE MESSAGES in SOCM. NO FURTHER POSTING WILL BE ENTERTAINED. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
                                        • Mathew Chacko
                                          Peace be with you, Let me ask,if this is the case how come priest joined Patriarch faction from other side continuing their spiritual duties as before?. A
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jun 13 6:07 AM
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                                            Peace be with you,

                                            Let me ask,if this is the case how come priest joined Patriarch
                                            faction from other side continuing their spiritual duties as before?.
                                            A priest personally known to me doing so till today and received
                                            monastrical order Ramban from H.B. Catholica Bava himself.
                                            Can it be a mistake? Please thorw some light.

                                            Thanks and regards
                                            Mathew Chacko
                                            ID # 2382

                                            -- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Abin wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Dear Beloved Jacobites,
                                            >
                                            > It is fair that some topic can discuss and some not for discussion
                                            but to keep. So for this topic we do not want to have a discussion.
                                            This is not a matter for discussion.  This is a faith of
                                            Jacobites. Otherwise we can start a discussion from scratch, about
                                            topics like "Who is GOD ? Can we touch GOD? Is soul there? an
                                            anybody show the soul ?" like that.....
                                          • Abin
                                            Dear beloved Jacobites, I am appreciating Sherin Chandy for his/her love and care towards Holy Church of ANTIOCH. I know that many are not interested to keep
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jun 16 4:29 PM
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                                              Dear beloved Jacobites,

                                              I am appreciating Sherin Chandy for his/her love and care towards Holy Church of ANTIOCH. I know that many are not interested to keep the Holy faith of ANTIOCH.

                                              We have educated boys/girls in our church. Once after the completion of their education, parents will search for a partner. From this time onwards all are leaving faith and get into a path that no need to think about church, think about good family, good this .. good that.... come into the theme of ecumenism.....

                                              We have great leaders to show this. I am not referring anybody's name here because if i refer also no use. But like to tell about the facts.

                                              I heard that one very prominenant leader have 2 daughters. Both were married to outside church and they left the church. This great dad came once for our Youth meet. He told us whatever happens in his political life he will not leave Jacobite church. I dont understand why he is so likely to be in Jacobite church. Is he be here because he thinks whether he have any benefits in political life? or surely because he will get heaven. We can understand that he may think he can go heaven and he dont want his daughters to be in heaven. GREAT DAD and MOMS.......

                                              Again, another great leader of our church always tell about ANTIOCH and send his daughter outside HOLY church in an excellent way. Want to know how? Boy is from opposite faction. He married this girl at our church(which too is not her home parish) infront of our boys........ with the blessings of a bishop. Poor Boy's of our Church who are trying to keep the holy faith !!!!!!!!!!!!! ...... The reason he told was when she born he decided that this child's marriage should be in this Jacobite church.

                                              Again, an Officer, was the great leader of Youth Association, send his daughter along with manorama. Even some of our Priests send their daughters like that.

                                              Again the case of Boy's are also not soooo good.... A lots are marrying girls from outside church.... thinking that these new girls are joining to our church.... Stoppppppppppppp.................

                                              Please understand that a lots of girls here inside church are waiting for you...... Pathetic condition of poor girls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                              As a Jocobite both boys or girls never feel pathetic because all are ready to go outside... Who cares!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                              They have their own reasons to make fun of poor faithfuls. What happened after that????? Even the common people also think why we toooooo????? Instabilityyyyyyy..........

                                              Who loses ????? These innocent girls left the HOLY church because of their parents only.

                                              We have to understand one thing..... These girls/boys are our assets. GOD gave them for the boys/girls of our church.

                                              What i am telling is Sherin Chandy, if you wants to keep the Holy Faith, then keep. Not to expect anything from anyone.

                                              Even our Decons have no time to take part in the holy mass of our church. They have assignments in theological seminary. Wants to know what is the assignment? Have to took part in "imitation" mass of other churches. Need to preach in their churches and make reports about what they see and did in these places. How is it?

                                              I am only telling one thing Our LORD's words.... In last times no one in this world have faith......

                                              Like to repeat what S Chandy states..... PATHETIC PATHETIC PATHETIC......

                                              I am not responding to Mr. Bejoy Chacko and Mathew Chacko's doubts, because its better we have bishops, priests great scholars are here in this forum to explain this. I am leaving for them.

                                              Bejoy, its not an easy task by explaining the entire faith and  history of Holy church of ANTIOCH. These thing a tru Jacobitian have to feel.... This is not a thing to write only in papers or in forums.....If your friend wants to know about Holy church then ask him to study the sunday school text book first. Their it clearly mention basic things about all and what happened in Synods in Nichea, Constantinople and Ephaeusis.

                                              For a just answer for your question :

                                              St.Peter Established HOLY THRONE at ANTIOCH in AD 37. Not after AD.325.

                                              One more thing to understand is it is not a matter that he/she is in kerala for 5 yrs or 10 yrs and after that he went to some other place....Did anybody prohibitted his/her parents to take the church books or sundayschool books to outside kerala? Did he/she forget to learn his usual class/UG/PG. Did he tell oh! i left kerala after 5 yrs. so i didnt study after 1st standard?

                                              It is the duty of a Jacobite faithful to teach his children by taking books from avaliable places if there is no other option. So its better to stop excuses and, start studying from the scratch.

                                              Mr. Chacko asked about a good question, that somebody(an imitator wore some wadrobe of our priest)joined Jacobite church and now a Ramban. I am not answering for this, let our leaders answer for this. Expect no one is going to answer.

                                              I am repeating - if you wants to keep the Holy Faith of ANTIOCH, then keep. Not to expect anything from anyone.

                                              Abin
                                              St Mary's Cathedral Valya Paly
                                              # 3257
                                            • Issac K Joseph
                                              Dear Mr. Mathew Peace be with you too Do you think our hierarchy does not know the validity or non validity of the priesthood of a person joining into our
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jun 17 12:07 AM
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                                                Dear Mr. Mathew

                                                Peace be with you too

                                                Do you think our hierarchy does not know the validity or non validity
                                                of the priesthood of a person joining into our Church?

                                                I think, it is not necessary to do all the sacraments in public and published in the media (their might be some genuine reasons for it). Be faith in our hierarchy and let them act for the good of the Church.

                                                If they do not follow the teachings and traditions of the church and the footsteps of our forefathers whom lead us in truth, they are answerable to the God.

                                                Before we accuse someone, please make sure our accusations have valid
                                                points.

                                                Are we laymen keeping the purity or sanctity of the sacraments
                                                what we received from the Church? Let us ASK our self before we jump
                                                in to others.

                                                In Christ
                                                Issac K Joseph
                                                Member Id No: 0917


                                                --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Mathew Chacko wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Peace be with you,
                                                >
                                                > Let me ask,if this is the case how come priest joined Patriarch
                                                > faction from other side continuing their spiritual duties as
                                                before?.
                                                > A priest personally known to me doing so till today and received
                                                > monastrical order Ramban from H.B. Catholica Bava himself.
                                                > Can it be a mistake? Please thorw some light.
                                                >
                                                > Thanks and regards
                                                > Mathew Chacko
                                                > ID # 2382
                                                >
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