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Re:Mission of the Holy Church

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  • Johnson
    Shlomo, The Syriac Orthodox bishop in Jerusalem used to be honararily decorated as the 5th Patriarch (or Jerusalem Patriarch) with the name Mor Gregorious
    Message 1 of 14 , May 7, 2008
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      Shlomo,

      The Syriac Orthodox bishop in Jerusalem used to be honararily
      decorated as the 5th Patriarch (or Jerusalem Patriarch) with the
      name 'Mor Gregorious' like Mor Iganatius for the Holy Patriarch, Mor
      Baselious for the H.B Catholicose. This honour was provided by the
      church in large due to the importance and significance of Jerusalem.
      We do pray in 1'st Dypthic as 'Innum ee ayushkalathum namme meyichu
      bharikkunna nammude pathriayarkkesanmaraya Moran Mor Ignathiosinu
      vendium Aboon Mor Gregoriousinu vendiyum Aboon Mor Baseliousinu
      vendiyum ...........

      In his love
      Johnson
      #2335.

      --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Sajy Thannikkottu wrote:
      >
      > Could anyone shed light to the relationship between SOC Patriarch &
      > Jerusalem Patriarch as mentioned in this message
      >
      > Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
      > # 2912
      >
      >
      > --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Paul Joshy wrote:
      > >
    • Paul Joshy
      Dear Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu For the basis of my arguement see the following words and related sites. It is as just opposite to what the IOC s preachings
      Message 2 of 14 , May 8, 2008
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        Dear Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu

        For the basis of my arguement see the following words and related sites. It is as just opposite to what the IOC's preachings regarding Abdul Jallel Bawa and well as Jerusalem patriarch.
        **
        *Britannica online encyclopedia *article on *Syrian Orthodox
        Patriarchate*of Antioch *......* it has been the main custodian of the Christian holy places in * Jerusalem*.

        http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9070778/Syrian-Orthodox-Patriarchate-of-Antioch - 53k

        *Wikipedia.* Abdul Jaleel was born in
        Mosul<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosul>,
        Iraq <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq>. In 1654 he was ordained
        Metropolitan bishop for the Ameed (Diyarbaker) diocese in
        Turkey<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey>by the Patriarch Mar
        Ignatius She'mun<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mar_Ignatius_She%27mun&action=edit&redlink=1>.

        In AD. 1664, he was elevated as the Metropolitan of Jerusalem with the title Mar Gregorios. Due to the significance of the city, the Metropolitan of Jerusalem is referred to as the 5th Patriarch in the Syrian Orthodox tradition . He traveled to India

        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India> in AD
        1665 to regularize the ordination of Mar Thoma
        I<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar_Thoma_I>and to oppose the
        Portuguese <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Empire>().

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar_Gregorios_Abdul_Jaleel

        *Parurchurch/Saint*. Abdul Jaleel Mor Gregorios Bava belong to the city of Moosal. He was the Bishop of the City of Ameed (Dayarbaker) and nearby places for ten years. Thereafter, His Holiness was elevated to become the Patriarch of Jerusalem (Fifth Patriarch).()

        http://www.margregoriousyouthassociation.org/thesaint.htm

        Paul Joshy
        # 4030
      • Sajy Thannikkottu
        Thank you for this message. Does it mean Jerusalem Patriarch is a position similar to the one of H B Catholicose and similarly leads a community under HH Zakha
        Message 3 of 14 , May 8, 2008
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          Thank you for this message.

          Does it mean Jerusalem Patriarch is a position similar to the one of H
          B Catholicose and similarly leads a community under HH Zakha Iwas.

          Or, is Jerusalem Patriarch a head like any other orthodox church head?

          Please rectify

          Sajy Thannikkottu
          # 2912

          --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Johnson wrote:
          >
          > Shlomo,
          >
          > The Syriac Orthodox bishop in Jerusalem used to be honararily
          > decorated as the 5th Patriarch (or Jerusalem Patriarch) with the
          > name 'Mor Gregorious' like Mor Iganatius for the Holy Patriarch, Mor
          > Baselious for the H.B Catholicose. This honour was provided by the
          > church in large due to the importance and significance of Jerusalem.
          > We do pray in 1'st Dypthic as 'Innum ee ayushkalathum namme meyichu
          > bharikkunna nammude pathriayarkkesanmaraya Moran Mor Ignathiosinu
          > vendium Aboon Mor Gregoriousinu vendiyum Aboon Mor Baseliousinu
          > vendiyum ...........
        • Johnson
          Dear brother in Christ, I feel that either you are confused or pretends to be confused. It is evident from the church history that the title of Jerusalem
          Message 4 of 14 , May 12, 2008
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            Dear brother in Christ,

            I feel that either you are confused or pretends to be confused. It
            is evident from the church history that the title of Jerusalem
            Patriarch or 5th Patriarch is only decorative to the Syriac Orthodox
            Arch bishop of Jersuslem and as any other bishop H.E is leading a
            diocese under H.H Patriarch.

            In his love
            Johnson
            #2335

            --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Sajy Thannikkottu wrote:
            >
            > Thank you for this message.
            >
            > Does it mean Jerusalem Patriarch is a position similar to the one
            of H
            > B Catholicose and similarly leads a community under HH Zakha Iwas.
            >
          • Sajy Thannikkottu
            Dear brother Are you referring to Patriarchal-Vicarate of Jerusalem and Jordan: Mor Severius Malke Mourad? Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu # 2912
            Message 5 of 14 , May 12, 2008
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              Dear brother

              Are you referring to Patriarchal-Vicarate of Jerusalem and Jordan: Mor
              Severius Malke Mourad?

              Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
              # 2912

              --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Johnson wrote:
              >
              > Dear brother in Christ,
              >
              > I feel that either you are confused or pretends to be confused. It
              > is evident from the church history that the title of Jerusalem
              > Patriarch or 5th Patriarch is only decorative to the Syriac Orthodox
              > Arch bishop of Jersuslem and as any other bishop H.E is leading a
              > diocese under H.H Patriarch.
            • Shinu Jesus Abraham
              Greetings to all Let us don t blame the priests or the laymen of IOC for their lack of knowledge on history, Patriarchate or Jerusalem Patriarch. It is the
              Message 6 of 14 , May 13, 2008
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                Greetings to all

                Let us don't blame the priests or the laymen of IOC for their lack
                of knowledge on history, Patriarchate or Jerusalem Patriarch. It is
                the result of all the manipulations of top think tanks of MOC
                (Malankara/ Manorama / Muthoot - whatever fits can be read)
                especially in the last 40+ years. Let us only try to help them –
                those willing let them see with their eyes, hear with their ears and
                understand with their hearts.

                Those priests who believe in Priesthood may refer the scolarary
                work "Mathopadesa Sarangal" by Mor Dionysius Geevarghese Vattasseril
                who created IOC understands from where the apostolic succession is
                from, before commenting "the Patriarch is not accepted by Malankara
                Sabha". Please don't comment before understanding the manipulations
                already made on the original work.

                Those who don't know who was St. Peter and what he was assigned can
                read another scholarary work in the below link. Pages 29,30 do refer
                in detail about the Patriarch of Jerusalem too.

                http://www.geocities.com/malankaraorthodoxfaith/ThomasAthanasius_Initial_Page.htm

                Those who don't know the church history can have a quick reference
                at the very famous mulamthuruthy padiola. Below is a link short and
                sweet which was hand written by our own Kochu Thirumeni who believed
                and practiced that SOC faith his whole life. May be a scroll through
                the signatories may reveal some of our close relatives / forefathers
                who did pledge on behalf of us too.

                http://www.geocities.com/parumalathirumeni/Padiyola_Malayalam.htm

                and

                http://www.syrianchurch.org/MalankaraSyrianChurch/MalankaraHistory.htm

                Those interested to know the chronological order of our hierarchs in
                SOC may refer the below links which cannot be produced by any of the
                20th century churches

                http://sor.cua.edu/Patriarchate/PatriarchsChronList.html

                and

                http://catholicose.org/PauloseII/Catholicate.htm


                Those still interested to learn more may find the below link equally
                interesting and useful.

                http://www.syrianchurch.org/Books.htm

                May God bless us all

                Shinu Jesus Abraham
                Id # 2908
              • Sajy Thannikkottu
                Though Shinu s message wasn t addressed to me I thought to respond as it appeared under my message. My question Are you referring to Patriarchal-Vicarate of
                Message 7 of 14 , May 16, 2008
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                  Though Shinu's message wasn't addressed to me I thought to respond as it appeared under my message. My question "Are you referring to Patriarchal-Vicarate of Jerusalem and Jordan: Mor Severius Malke Mourad?" was a kind of one word question-answer.

                  I am not ashamed of accepting if I don't know. I am not interested in discussing topics such as IOC or SOC thinktanks as mentioned. I remember a similar inconclusive debate with you had sometime back. And this time I asked this question as a continuation of a message posted here.

                  Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
                  # 2912
                • Shinu Jesus Abraham
                  Dear Sajy To my limited knowledge Patriarchal-Vicarate of Jerusalem and Jordan: Mor Severius Malke Mourad is the current successor of Mor Abdul Jaleel Bava,
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 17, 2008
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                    Dear Sajy

                    To my limited knowledge Patriarchal-Vicarate of Jerusalem and
                    Jordan: Mor Severius Malke Mourad is the current successor of Mor
                    Abdul Jaleel Bava, though centuries of trials and tribulations have
                    reduced the power and size of the holy seat. Many of the
                    metropolitans and catholicose of both SOC and IOC have visited this
                    partriarchate and have conducted holy Eucharist in the very famous
                    St. Marks monastery in the last century. Hope some learned can
                    through some light on the history.

                    http://www.syrianchurch.org/Paravur/StGregorios.htm

                    and

                    http://www.saintgregorios.org/PARUMALA/pilgrimage.htm

                    Shinu Jesus Abraham
                    ID # 2908

                    --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Sajy Thannikkottu wrote:
                    >
                    > Though Shinu's message wasn't addressed to me I thought to respond
                    as it appeared under my message. My question "Are you referring to
                    Patriarchal-Vicarate of Jerusalem and Jordan: Mor Severius Malke
                    Mourad?" was a kind of one word question-answer.
                    >
                  • Sajy Thannikkottu
                    Dear brothers Seeing the tone of of some messages I thought those who posted them could be well studied. I hope someone in the forum could help me to know more
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 19, 2008
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                      Dear brothers

                      Seeing the tone of of some messages I thought those who posted them
                      could be well studied. I hope someone in the forum could help me to
                      know more about the current Jerussalem Patriarch. I haven't seen
                      anything introducing Mor Severius Malke Mourad as Mor Gregorious in
                      SOC websites. As refering in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/12415 we remember Mor Gregorious not Mor Severius

                      Ps: Most of us fight only because we have seen some others in that
                      fight. We've taken a side only because others have taken a side. For a
                      Typical Malayali, it is not necessary to know the reason before
                      entering a warfield.

                      regards

                      Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
                      # 2912
                    • Sunny M. Jacob
                      Dear All, I find a transition for the subject text on comparing 2 Holy Qurbana Kramam, ie. 1. H Qubana kramam (MSOT Seminary 2003 edition) which gives ....
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 21, 2008
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                        Dear All,
                        I find a transition for the subject text on comparing 2 Holy Qurbana
                        Kramam, ie.
                        1. H Qubana kramam (MSOT Seminary 2003 edition) which gives "....
                        nammude Pathriyarkkisaya Moran Mor Ignathiouse Zakka Pradhamanu
                        vendiyum sreshta Katholikka Aboon Mor Baseliouse Thomas Pradhamanu
                        vendiyum nammude melpattakkaran..... nu vendiyum..."

                        2. Aradhana Sahayi, onnaam bhagam, kollavarsham 1122)- "nammude
                        Pathriyarkkisaya Aboon Mar Ignathiousinu vendiyum, nammude
                        melpattakkaran Mor--- nu vendiyum"

                        Can any one explain the tansition.

                        Kindly shower light to the 1'st Dypthic that is read and prayed in
                        Our Holy Church under the Holy See of Antioch, that
                        states "....nammude Pathriyarkkisaya...." and not "....nammude
                        pathriayarkkesanmaraya...."

                        My brother in Christ Mr.Johnson, could you please define plurality
                        of Holy Patriarch from what you have mentioned.

                        Sunny
                        ID #3320
                        --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Johnson wrote:
                        >
                        > Shlomo,
                        >
                        > The Syriac Orthodox bishop in Jerusalem used to be honararily
                        > decorated as the 5th Patriarch (or Jerusalem Patriarch) with the
                        > name 'Mor Gregorious' like Mor Iganatius for the Holy Patriarch,
                        Mor
                        > Baselious for the H.B Catholicose. This honour was provided by the
                        > church in large due to the importance and significance of
                        Jerusalem.
                        > We do pray in 1'st Dypthic as 'Innum ee ayushkalathum namme meyichu
                        > bharikkunna nammude pathriayarkkesanmaraya Moran Mor Ignathiosinu
                        > vendium Aboon Mor Gregoriousinu vendiyum Aboon Mor Baseliousinu
                        > vendiyum ...........
                        >
                        > In his love
                        > Johnson
                        > #2335.
                        >
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