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Re: IOC Leadership Remains A Nuisance [Dn George Mathew]

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  • Rev. Fr. George Thankachan
    Dear Mr.Varky Titus, You are badly mistaken by reading in between the lines of the Constitution of 1934 of Malankara Orthodox Syrian Chuch. Please take note
    Message 1 of 11 , May 5, 2008
      Dear Mr.Varky Titus,

      You are badly mistaken by reading in between the lines of the Constitution of 1934 of Malankara Orthodox Syrian Chuch. Please take note that HH Ignatios Zacha Ivas I is a patriarch not yet officially recognised by the Malankara Sabha. Hence his holiness is a spiritual leader to us as the Queen of Britain is what to the people of India Republic which forms part of the Common Wealth of Nations headed by the British monarch. People of India do not recognise the British queen as their ruler but recognise the President of India only as the head of the state. Similarly, we -the people of Malankara Sabha have our own head of the church-the Catholicos of the East and the Malankara Metropolitan with head quarters at Devalokam,Kottayam. We form part of the syrian tradition as in the case of India being part of the common weath of nations.

      Infact, patriarch bava stands for Peace and Unity in Malankara Sabha. And his holiness had expressed his wish of having a unified church in Malankara to many dignitaries in our holy church like H H. Baselios Marthomas Mathews II of blessed memory, Rev.Fr.Dr.K.M.George, Dr.D.Babu Paul so on and so forth. But certain extremists in the church sabotaged his dream of 'Unity and Peace in Malankara'. I leave it for your research to find the fanatic extremists behind that sabotage. Seek and ye shall find the Truth.

      Our Lord Jesus has said," Happy are those who work for peace; God will call them his children."(Mat 5:9). If HH Ignatios Zacha Ivas I Bava stands for peace instead of division in the holy church, we can be sure that he is a man of God.

      With love and prayers,
      Yours in Christ,
      George achen,Ireland.
    • Varugese C J
      Dear All, This is not at all to blame anyone from either Churches - SOC or IOC, but I had to keep quite on questioning by two of my Hindu friends, who visited
      Message 2 of 11 , May 6, 2008
        Dear All,

        This is not at all to blame anyone from either Churches - SOC or IOC, but I had to keep quite on questioning by two of my Hindu friends, who visited me last week. When they came, I was reading an article titled "Malankara Cheppedukal" authored by Fr. Joseph Cheeran. After seeing Malankara they questioned me to which Church I belong, and what is the difference between these two churches. The reason they cited was they had seen quite unpleasant uproars, and desecration of dead bodies in cemetaries or in the church compounds, which was flashed in few news channels sometime back, and thus they overheard about the existence of two warring groups in Malankara church. They also told me that they know the Catholic, Jacobite, Marthomites, CSI, Petecost, Latin Catholic churches in Kerala, and asked me what is this Orthodox Church is (One of them even asked me: Are this Orthodox preach anything NEW, are they not preaching JESUS or are they not believe in his teaching). They even cited that you all preach and pray to the Messiha of Love - Jesus, and then why these divisions, and the latest fights in streets, inside the churches, church compounds, war of words between priests - not only by priest but also by Bishops, who are supposed to preach the LOVE. They both asked me is this the way you are all taught to preach the LOVE, and the gospel of PEACE. How can you stand at the time of trial at the end?

        I did not have any answer to their queries; but only told them that the Jacobites never wanted to have a fight, but are ready to part with the holding or ownership of a church, where disputes are prevailing, upon the majority decision of that particular Church. Both of them agreed to it that this is a genuine proposal to resolve things; and asked me why the other party is not agreeing to it. I did not have an answer to this. If any IOC brotheren have an answer to this, please do not hesitate to put it in this FORUM or the other FORUM where lakhs of faithfuls will be benefitted with.

        May God Almighty give wisdom to all of US (SOC and IOC) to resolve this shameful act of street fightings, war or words, and unchristian way to dealing with the Church matters. It would be nice to remember here that the words "If you two brothers have any matter of disputes on faith matters, call the elders of CHURCH to resolve, but not to go to a gentile (secular Judge) for resolution". (I couldn't remember the exact versus from the Holy Bible, and hence it is reproduced like this).

        With HIS LOVE to all my Brothers,
        CJ Varughese
        Mem ID 1012
      • Issac K Joseph
        George achen of Ireland is making a good point ... Did you recognise H. H. Abded Aloho? (who ordained Vattasseril Thirumeni) Why? Did you recognise St. Elias
        Message 3 of 11 , May 7, 2008
          George achen of Ireland is making a good point

          --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Fr. George Thankachan wrote:
          >
          > Dear Mr.Varky Titus,
          >
          > Please take note that HH Ignatios Zacha Ivas I is a patriarch not
          >yet officially recognised by the Malankara Sabha.

          Did you recognise H. H. Abded Aloho? (who ordained Vattasseril Thirumeni) Why? Did you recognise St. Elias III? Did you recognise H. H. Aphrem I? Did you recognise H.H. Yacoub III? Was there a constitution then? I challenge you to submit an affidavit to the court of law stating the above fact. You deny that Patriarch is not the head of the Church, not in media, but in the court of law.

          What is the observation of the Supreme Court in its finding in 1995? You people are "cheat" and do it in a legally valid manner, that is the difference. Vattakkunnel Bava planned the Church case in 1974 to take custody of every church. Where are you now? Stop these propositions. We don't recognise your catholicos Didymos (name selected by Milithiose of Trichur), so what? You have your primates and we have ours - that is all. Your recognition is not like the Edict of Milan, those days are gone!

          Another good point

          >
          >Infact, patriarch bava stands for Peace and Unity in Malankara
          >Sabha. And his holiness had expressed his wish of having a unified
          >church in Malankara to many dignitaries in our holy church like
          >H H. Baselios Marthomas Mathews II of blessed memory,
          >Rev.Fr.Dr.K.M.George, Dr.D.Babu Paul so on and so forth.

          It is easy to cheat H. H. as in 1958 by giving a letter "SUBJECT TO 1934 CONSTITUTION," in the making of which H. H. was not a party. These are all history. You cannot cheat the Church for a second time. Time will show the fate of IOC. Why are you eager to peace now? What is the hidden agenda now?

          >Our Lord Jesus has said," Happy are those who work for peace; God
          >will call them his children."(Mat 5:9).

          This true. But not about those who make peace with ulterior motives.

          We have built more then 300 churches since 1974, now you want to get at these churches. Not a chance. Better be contented with where you are and what you are!

          In Christ
          Issac K Joseph
          Member Id No: 0917
        • Patthikan
          Dear All, At the time of St.John the Baptist, the fiery mouth and his Master s forerunner, vicious attack occurred on him that cost his head for speaking the
          Message 4 of 11 , May 7, 2008
            Dear All,

            At the time of St.John the Baptist, the fiery mouth and his Master's forerunner, vicious attack occurred on him that cost his head for speaking the truth and calling for repentance. See what is happening now for someone speaking of truth and calling for change in attitude of stubbornness. Attack from all directions! We, the parents are watching. Don't be afraid of speaking the truth but with respect to your fellow humans please! We are watching!

            Peace.

            Patthikan
            #0476

            --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Mike Wingert wrote:
            >
            > Christ is risen! Truly He is risen!
            >
            > Dear George Mathew,
            >
            > You wrote: "It's a shame that such un-Christian, un-Orthodox
            rhetoric
            > continually comes from this deacon."
            >
            > Could you please elaborate on this. What specifically was
            > un-Christian or un-Orthodox coming from the deacon? I happen to
            know
          • Jinesh John
            Dear George achan, Just a humble question.if a son officially wouldnot declare a person as his father, would not that person be really the father. The same
            Message 5 of 11 , May 7, 2008
              Dear George achan,

              Just a humble question.if a son officially wouldnot declare a person as his father, would not that person be really the father.

              The same concept is applicable in the argument raised by you as H.H.Zakka I is not officially accepted as Patriarch by the so called malankara sabha.(Indian??).

              The Hon'ble Supreme Court has clearly mentioned that H.H. Patriarch of Antioch is the supreme spiritual head of Malankara Sabha. Then those who are against the supremacy of H.H. are the real extremists in the church who incugate factionalism just for the upliftment of their own needs.such fationalists raise the slogan "Bhoolokam ennal Devalokam" and they are the real culprits against unity.

              Better try to heal your own wounds first than to provide medicine for
              others.

              with prayers
              Jinesh John
              member ID 4003
            • Varugese C J
              Dear George Achen, This refers to your reply to D. George Mathew s message on the above subject. The real cause of unrest in Malankara Church is clear in your
              Message 6 of 11 , May 7, 2008
                Dear George Achen,

                This refers to your reply to D. George Mathew's message on the above
                subject. The real cause of unrest in Malankara Church is clear in your
                message, that is "Please take note that HH Ignatios Zakka Iwas I is a
                Patriarch not yet officially recognised by the Malankara Sabha". Why don't you work to to get HH officially recognized by your Malankara Sabha? It needs only an official recognition. The majority faithfuls in IOC is recognizing HH as Patriarch, but not by majority of Clergy irrespective of their cadre. All problems were created or tailor-made by the officials of IOC, not by any laity. We feel pity over this.

                Please note that the Jacobite Church in Malankara was always blessed with HH Patriarch's and Holy See's patronage, love and affection, and timely help whenever it was needed. If you or anybody from IOC venture on it, you people only will be liable for any kind of unpleasant happenings. We, Jacobites were led by the Holy Spirit, and not by any officials during our struggle with the IOC's high-handedness. Later only we were blessed with people HB Baselios Poulose II and now with HB Baselios Thomas I. Such people will be raised not by man but by the Call of Holy Spirit.

                We urge people like you not to close your eyes towards truth, and not to run away from true faith, and pray for a speedy solution of the century old schism in Malankara.

                With regards,
                CJ Varughese
                Mem ID # 1012
              • Sinoj Edayanal
                Dear Brothers, I really feel very euphoric seeing the valuable messages from Rev. Dn Joel and from Mike wingert regarding the recent discussion regarding the
                Message 7 of 11 , May 7, 2008
                  Dear Brothers,

                  I really feel very euphoric seeing the valuable messages from Rev. Dn
                  Joel and from Mike wingert regarding the recent discussion regarding
                  the subject related IOC nuisance. I strongly agree and support to Dn.
                  Joel about his opinion about the father from ireland. I appreciate if
                  he utilize his knowledge for spreading the doctrine of christian love. He will sometimes act as the real angel from heaven, even sometimes critising and belittiling the priests of their on Kanjikuzhy society. Once i have a argument with him and finally he told his wife is from jacobite faction and he respect the belief of his inlaws but later his posting reveals his depth of respect to his inlaws belief.

                  Form run by moderator Bindu once send me a personal message that bad languages cannot not be used in the forum messages and i need edit the message which i wrote as a reply to this priest.

                  They mentioned this about a phrase I used "koduthal kollathum kittum". I still dont think that this is a bad language. But recently they are expressing all nasty words reagrding the head of the Universal Syrian Orthodox church H.H Bava and about our catholicose H B Bava. Even one of the recent message from an elder express in his message the full form of Dn., which is the short form of Decon in all christian churches, as demon. I strongly believe that this is not only his view but also the great teaching from the Kanjikuzhy society.

                  Friends, our supreme head, the real holy father of our church is planning to visit Malankara to see his beloveds and children. Kanjikuzhy society and its priests dont blank out that the first name
                  you remember in holy qurbana on every sunday is of this father. How can we empathise their prayers, if they are acting one way in the altar and behaving other way outside.

                  Kanjikuzhy society always proudly says that there is a kabar of Mar
                  Thoma sleeha at Devalokam. Please remeber that the holy relics placed
                  there is handovered to them from this same holy father.

                  The clergies and hirarchies which belongs to the American diocese of this kanjikuzhy society is the real manipulators and actors. They can act like anything. Those people who migrated in early 60's and 70's still believing that Jacobites (real succcedors of Mor Yakub Bordhono) in malankara are still foolish and they can be cheated
                  easily like the act of 70's reunion. Some priest from kanjikuzhy
                  society (annointed thrikunathu chapel manager) sometimes visit these
                  domains, and recreate these olden-golden days through his 70 model
                  kadha prasangam. So the faithful believe that everything is going to
                  be same. A Rev. Decon belongs to this part heralded a church union in
                  70 model in his previous message with a sugaring words of christianity. This is a clear evidence of their attitude.

                  They can do all nasty things in the Jacobite churches and can pour
                  crocodile tears. If these people are educated enough, first chore is
                  to make understand this christianity to their leaders in the
                  kanjikuzhy aramana.

                  There is nothing to wonder, this Kanjikuzhy society is born,
                  broughtup and now existing in lies, treachery and perfidiousness.
                  so have to expect all these faces of these peoples.

                  May His Love and Mercy endure all.

                  Sinoj Edayanal
                  Canada
                  # 4009

                  --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Dn. Joel Jacob wrote:
                  >
                  > Beloved Moderators,
                  >
                  > I thought it would be appropriate to share this with SOCM members
                  > since our "IOC" member from Ireland makes a lot of noise here. He
                  > calls himself "Fr. George Thankachan".
                  >
                  > Written May 1, 2008:
                  >
                  > ".......I know HH.Ignatios Zacha Ivas I is just a helpless holy
                  > puppet in the hands of the greatest manipulator of our time-HB
                  Thomas
                • Johnson
                  Dear Rev.Deacon Joel, Thank you very much for your effort to reveal the dual attitude of Fr.George T from Ireland. I never go through IO Forums and the ones
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 8, 2008
                    Dear Rev.Deacon Joel,

                    Thank you very much for your effort to reveal the dual attitude of
                    Fr.George T from Ireland. I never go through IO Forums and the ones
                    posted by him in this forum except his latest one were indeed
                    thought provoking. By reading his messages I was under the
                    impression that he is a learned priest who stands for peace but now
                    I am realising that he is not different from any other fanatic HIS-
                    STORIAN. In his latest posting Fr. George has said that the present
                    H.H the Patriarch is not approved by the 1934 constitution as the
                    patriarch of Antioch and hence he and his church cannot give
                    reverence to HH as the head of the church. I request Fr. George T to
                    produce a list of Patriarchs who were approved by the Holy 1934
                    Bible. Also I would like to know for which Patriarch you pray in the
                    1'st Dypthic?, whether your church will show the courage to respect
                    your own constitution by disowning the prelates like St.Greogorious
                    and your St. Vattasseril of the pre 1934 era who obeyed the Holy
                    Patriarchs (again not approved by 1934)?, If you do every thing as
                    per the 1934 constitution why you are silent on the fake ordination
                    of Rabban Gurgan of Germany by your 2 bishops?. Is your present
                    Catholicose the approved /legal Malankara Metropolitan? If so why
                    your own people have filed cases against his appointment?.

                    It is very funny that the sons will approve father before calling
                    him as father.

                    As a priest who celebrates the Holy Eucharist please desist from
                    provocative writings and false propaganda. By doing so you may
                    achieve some position in your church but it will not certainly help
                    you during the final judgement.

                    In his love,

                    Johnson
                    #2335.

                    --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Dn. Joel Jacob wrote:
                    >
                    > Beloved Moderators,
                    >
                    > I thought it would be appropriate to share this with SOCM members
                    > since our "IOC" member from Ireland makes a lot of noise here. He
                    > calls himself "Fr. George Thankachan".
                    >
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