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Re: IOC Leadership Remains A Nuisance [Dn. Joel Jacob]

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  • Mike Wingert
    Christ is risen! Truly He is risen! Dear George Mathew, You wrote: It s a shame that such un-Christian, un-Orthodox rhetoric continually comes from this
    Message 1 of 11 , May 4 5:39 PM
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      Christ is risen! Truly He is risen!

      Dear George Mathew,

      You wrote: "It's a shame that such un-Christian, un-Orthodox rhetoric
      continually comes from this deacon."

      Could you please elaborate on this. What specifically was
      un-Christian or un-Orthodox coming from the deacon? I happen to know
      him personally, and I would be very surprised if he said anything of
      the sort. Perhaps you misunderstood something he wrote or attributed
      something falsely to him and that has led you to this conclusion.

      Do you honestly believe in taking a road away from legalism? If so,
      I'm greatly encouraged. Certainly the fruits of the legalism have led
      to a generation of apostasy both in an exodus from the Syriac Orthodox
      Church in India, but also to an apostasy within the Syriac Orthodox
      Church in India. You can agree then that the 1934 Constitution of the
      IOC is Satanic in nature (even if it was not intended to be an
      exaltation of the unholy one), for the fruits of this has led many
      away from the Church into the arms of apathy, atheism, agnosticism, or
      at times other religions/denominations, in addition to creating a
      fissure in the Syriac Orthodox Church in India that has resulted in
      one camp remaining with the Church and another camp that is
      essentially a copy of the Syriac Orthodox Church in India. We will
      know a tree by its fruit, Christ has taught. Surely, you will agree
      that the fruits of this fighting are difficult to find.

      Let me be clear though, I think there are some young people in the USA
      who are affiliated with the IO who are trying to bear good fruit.
      They are trying to work hard with their youth and find creative ways
      to reach the younger generations. Generally speaking, this is good
      fruit (though I would argue, it is not yet ripe!), and we should see
      the trees that produce good fruit and recognize them.

      You see, this is not about teams and each thinking he is right and
      stubborn as you say. This is about holiness. Just as it is unholy to
      raise one's voice at the wrong time, so too is it unholy to stay quiet
      at other times. Christ was VERY stern, especially when it came to
      truth and address those who would misrepresent it. Though not
      necessarily violent, He was certainly no pacifist.

      "Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or make the tree bad,
      and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of
      vipers! how can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the
      abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man out of his good
      treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure
      brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render
      account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will
      be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matthew 12:33-37)

      In all honesty, I'm very happy that Dn. Joel Jacob is very open about
      the reality of the situation that originated in India and has spilled
      over into the United States and other nations. Malayalees have a
      tendency not to rock the boat. Generally speaking, this is a good
      practice, but when something is wrong, this practice becomes very
      problematic as it tolerates many things which should not be tolerated.
      I have seen an entire parish community paralyzed because each person
      was too afraid to rebuke an inappropriate practice introduced among
      them--nearly every person opted to keep quiet and not address the
      problem. "What will people say?" they'd say, afraid to speak up.
      Problems grow by not being addressed, and a new series of troubles
      await. Such is the fruit of keeping quiet when unholiness threatens
      the salvation of the flock.

      I wish you would look at the reality of this situation and embrace a
      change of heart. You needn't do so by answering any email, but
      contemplate the way of Christ and see what is congruent in the
      movement you've affiliated yourself with. I approach you with sincere
      love, as a human being, as an offspring of our common father Adam. I
      beseech you to look beyond the shadow cast by the movement you're
      affiliated with, and come home. If you do, great! The angels indeed
      will rejoice on high! If not, that would be unfortunate.

      I suppose I could pick apart every portion of your email, but that
      wouldn't do you and I much good right now. Instead, I will get to a
      comment you made that really shocked me, and is thus my entire reason
      for responding! You wrote: " Many churches have gone through this
      and have come out strong (e.g., Ethiopian/Eritrean)."

      The Ethiopian/Eritrean example is perhaps the WORST one could think of
      if you're suggestion is that they've come out strong.

      Here is a short summary:
      During a time of nationalistic uproar, the Coptic Orthodox Church in
      Ethiopia waited until a very difficult time for the Coptic Orthodox
      Church in Egypt to break away; they did this amidst a warning from
      Dayroyo Abdel-MasiH, who was a Ethiopian monk and warned those behind
      this endeavor that splitting would cause a great curse of catastrophic
      proportions. Soon thereafter, the dynasty of King Solomon fell,
      Ethiopia was taken over by communists, and the country fell into
      severe famine. Not long after, the Ethiopian Patriarch was imprisoned
      and a parallel patriarch was consecrated, creating TWO ETHIOPIAN
      PATRIARCHATES. These rival Ethiopian churches last to this day and
      only one is recognized universally among the Oriental Orthodox.

      After the fall of the Soviet Union, Eritreans fought a WAR with
      Ethiopia for independence. How many Orthodox Christians died in this
      conflict?! In creating their own Catholicate/Patriarchate, the
      DIOCESE of Eritrea, then part of the Ethiopian Patriarchate, did not
      go to their Patriarch, rather, they went to Alexandria to their
      universal Patriarch, the Coptic Orthodox Pope. The Coptic Orthodox
      Church of Alexandria Egypt consecrated the Eritrean Orthodox
      Patriarch. Recently (nearly a year ago), a rival patriarch was
      appointed for the Eritrean Church. There are now two Eritrean
      Patriarchates.

      What are the fruits? There are many wonderful, saintly, Ethiopian and
      Eritreans of the Orthodox Christian Church. They are shining examples
      and should be venerated. Nonetheless, a culture of booze and
      extramarital sex (and thus, the MAJOR problem of AIDS) has emerged as
      fruit of their nationalism and inner-conflicts. Sadly, this is but
      the tip of the iceberg when it comes to dealing with this issue. Much
      like India, many are fleeing to non-Orthodox denominations, leaving
      many in their rival Orthodox communities to those who focus on the
      culture and pomp of the Orthodox tradition rather than the living
      legacy of Christ. (Again, there are many shining examples of saints
      still within this community as I've previously stated)

      Before addressing those outside of truth as a Brood of Vipers, Christ
      told us to pay attention to the fruits trees produce. For me, it has
      been a journey working on who I am as an adopted child of God. I am
      not perfect, and I struggle. But with the hope of Christ, I hope to
      produce good fruit.

      I hope you will see that the IO tree is indeed a poisonous plant. You
      needn't be in such a grove. Produce good fruit, and try to understand
      where the good deacon is coming from when he, in true Christian love,
      calls you and those you've chosen to currently affiliate with home to
      repentance.

      Christ is risen! Truly He is risen!

      Mike Wingert
      0902
    • Rev. Fr. George Thankachan
      Dear Mr.Varky Titus, You are badly mistaken by reading in between the lines of the Constitution of 1934 of Malankara Orthodox Syrian Chuch. Please take note
      Message 2 of 11 , May 5 7:12 AM
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        Dear Mr.Varky Titus,

        You are badly mistaken by reading in between the lines of the Constitution of 1934 of Malankara Orthodox Syrian Chuch. Please take note that HH Ignatios Zacha Ivas I is a patriarch not yet officially recognised by the Malankara Sabha. Hence his holiness is a spiritual leader to us as the Queen of Britain is what to the people of India Republic which forms part of the Common Wealth of Nations headed by the British monarch. People of India do not recognise the British queen as their ruler but recognise the President of India only as the head of the state. Similarly, we -the people of Malankara Sabha have our own head of the church-the Catholicos of the East and the Malankara Metropolitan with head quarters at Devalokam,Kottayam. We form part of the syrian tradition as in the case of India being part of the common weath of nations.

        Infact, patriarch bava stands for Peace and Unity in Malankara Sabha. And his holiness had expressed his wish of having a unified church in Malankara to many dignitaries in our holy church like H H. Baselios Marthomas Mathews II of blessed memory, Rev.Fr.Dr.K.M.George, Dr.D.Babu Paul so on and so forth. But certain extremists in the church sabotaged his dream of 'Unity and Peace in Malankara'. I leave it for your research to find the fanatic extremists behind that sabotage. Seek and ye shall find the Truth.

        Our Lord Jesus has said," Happy are those who work for peace; God will call them his children."(Mat 5:9). If HH Ignatios Zacha Ivas I Bava stands for peace instead of division in the holy church, we can be sure that he is a man of God.

        With love and prayers,
        Yours in Christ,
        George achen,Ireland.
      • Varugese C J
        Dear All, This is not at all to blame anyone from either Churches - SOC or IOC, but I had to keep quite on questioning by two of my Hindu friends, who visited
        Message 3 of 11 , May 6 5:03 AM
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          Dear All,

          This is not at all to blame anyone from either Churches - SOC or IOC, but I had to keep quite on questioning by two of my Hindu friends, who visited me last week. When they came, I was reading an article titled "Malankara Cheppedukal" authored by Fr. Joseph Cheeran. After seeing Malankara they questioned me to which Church I belong, and what is the difference between these two churches. The reason they cited was they had seen quite unpleasant uproars, and desecration of dead bodies in cemetaries or in the church compounds, which was flashed in few news channels sometime back, and thus they overheard about the existence of two warring groups in Malankara church. They also told me that they know the Catholic, Jacobite, Marthomites, CSI, Petecost, Latin Catholic churches in Kerala, and asked me what is this Orthodox Church is (One of them even asked me: Are this Orthodox preach anything NEW, are they not preaching JESUS or are they not believe in his teaching). They even cited that you all preach and pray to the Messiha of Love - Jesus, and then why these divisions, and the latest fights in streets, inside the churches, church compounds, war of words between priests - not only by priest but also by Bishops, who are supposed to preach the LOVE. They both asked me is this the way you are all taught to preach the LOVE, and the gospel of PEACE. How can you stand at the time of trial at the end?

          I did not have any answer to their queries; but only told them that the Jacobites never wanted to have a fight, but are ready to part with the holding or ownership of a church, where disputes are prevailing, upon the majority decision of that particular Church. Both of them agreed to it that this is a genuine proposal to resolve things; and asked me why the other party is not agreeing to it. I did not have an answer to this. If any IOC brotheren have an answer to this, please do not hesitate to put it in this FORUM or the other FORUM where lakhs of faithfuls will be benefitted with.

          May God Almighty give wisdom to all of US (SOC and IOC) to resolve this shameful act of street fightings, war or words, and unchristian way to dealing with the Church matters. It would be nice to remember here that the words "If you two brothers have any matter of disputes on faith matters, call the elders of CHURCH to resolve, but not to go to a gentile (secular Judge) for resolution". (I couldn't remember the exact versus from the Holy Bible, and hence it is reproduced like this).

          With HIS LOVE to all my Brothers,
          CJ Varughese
          Mem ID 1012
        • Issac K Joseph
          George achen of Ireland is making a good point ... Did you recognise H. H. Abded Aloho? (who ordained Vattasseril Thirumeni) Why? Did you recognise St. Elias
          Message 4 of 11 , May 7 4:41 AM
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            George achen of Ireland is making a good point

            --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Fr. George Thankachan wrote:
            >
            > Dear Mr.Varky Titus,
            >
            > Please take note that HH Ignatios Zacha Ivas I is a patriarch not
            >yet officially recognised by the Malankara Sabha.

            Did you recognise H. H. Abded Aloho? (who ordained Vattasseril Thirumeni) Why? Did you recognise St. Elias III? Did you recognise H. H. Aphrem I? Did you recognise H.H. Yacoub III? Was there a constitution then? I challenge you to submit an affidavit to the court of law stating the above fact. You deny that Patriarch is not the head of the Church, not in media, but in the court of law.

            What is the observation of the Supreme Court in its finding in 1995? You people are "cheat" and do it in a legally valid manner, that is the difference. Vattakkunnel Bava planned the Church case in 1974 to take custody of every church. Where are you now? Stop these propositions. We don't recognise your catholicos Didymos (name selected by Milithiose of Trichur), so what? You have your primates and we have ours - that is all. Your recognition is not like the Edict of Milan, those days are gone!

            Another good point

            >
            >Infact, patriarch bava stands for Peace and Unity in Malankara
            >Sabha. And his holiness had expressed his wish of having a unified
            >church in Malankara to many dignitaries in our holy church like
            >H H. Baselios Marthomas Mathews II of blessed memory,
            >Rev.Fr.Dr.K.M.George, Dr.D.Babu Paul so on and so forth.

            It is easy to cheat H. H. as in 1958 by giving a letter "SUBJECT TO 1934 CONSTITUTION," in the making of which H. H. was not a party. These are all history. You cannot cheat the Church for a second time. Time will show the fate of IOC. Why are you eager to peace now? What is the hidden agenda now?

            >Our Lord Jesus has said," Happy are those who work for peace; God
            >will call them his children."(Mat 5:9).

            This true. But not about those who make peace with ulterior motives.

            We have built more then 300 churches since 1974, now you want to get at these churches. Not a chance. Better be contented with where you are and what you are!

            In Christ
            Issac K Joseph
            Member Id No: 0917
          • Patthikan
            Dear All, At the time of St.John the Baptist, the fiery mouth and his Master s forerunner, vicious attack occurred on him that cost his head for speaking the
            Message 5 of 11 , May 7 11:09 AM
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              Dear All,

              At the time of St.John the Baptist, the fiery mouth and his Master's forerunner, vicious attack occurred on him that cost his head for speaking the truth and calling for repentance. See what is happening now for someone speaking of truth and calling for change in attitude of stubbornness. Attack from all directions! We, the parents are watching. Don't be afraid of speaking the truth but with respect to your fellow humans please! We are watching!

              Peace.

              Patthikan
              #0476

              --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Mike Wingert wrote:
              >
              > Christ is risen! Truly He is risen!
              >
              > Dear George Mathew,
              >
              > You wrote: "It's a shame that such un-Christian, un-Orthodox
              rhetoric
              > continually comes from this deacon."
              >
              > Could you please elaborate on this. What specifically was
              > un-Christian or un-Orthodox coming from the deacon? I happen to
              know
            • Jinesh John
              Dear George achan, Just a humble question.if a son officially wouldnot declare a person as his father, would not that person be really the father. The same
              Message 6 of 11 , May 7 11:27 AM
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                Dear George achan,

                Just a humble question.if a son officially wouldnot declare a person as his father, would not that person be really the father.

                The same concept is applicable in the argument raised by you as H.H.Zakka I is not officially accepted as Patriarch by the so called malankara sabha.(Indian??).

                The Hon'ble Supreme Court has clearly mentioned that H.H. Patriarch of Antioch is the supreme spiritual head of Malankara Sabha. Then those who are against the supremacy of H.H. are the real extremists in the church who incugate factionalism just for the upliftment of their own needs.such fationalists raise the slogan "Bhoolokam ennal Devalokam" and they are the real culprits against unity.

                Better try to heal your own wounds first than to provide medicine for
                others.

                with prayers
                Jinesh John
                member ID 4003
              • Varugese C J
                Dear George Achen, This refers to your reply to D. George Mathew s message on the above subject. The real cause of unrest in Malankara Church is clear in your
                Message 7 of 11 , May 7 9:03 PM
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                  Dear George Achen,

                  This refers to your reply to D. George Mathew's message on the above
                  subject. The real cause of unrest in Malankara Church is clear in your
                  message, that is "Please take note that HH Ignatios Zakka Iwas I is a
                  Patriarch not yet officially recognised by the Malankara Sabha". Why don't you work to to get HH officially recognized by your Malankara Sabha? It needs only an official recognition. The majority faithfuls in IOC is recognizing HH as Patriarch, but not by majority of Clergy irrespective of their cadre. All problems were created or tailor-made by the officials of IOC, not by any laity. We feel pity over this.

                  Please note that the Jacobite Church in Malankara was always blessed with HH Patriarch's and Holy See's patronage, love and affection, and timely help whenever it was needed. If you or anybody from IOC venture on it, you people only will be liable for any kind of unpleasant happenings. We, Jacobites were led by the Holy Spirit, and not by any officials during our struggle with the IOC's high-handedness. Later only we were blessed with people HB Baselios Poulose II and now with HB Baselios Thomas I. Such people will be raised not by man but by the Call of Holy Spirit.

                  We urge people like you not to close your eyes towards truth, and not to run away from true faith, and pray for a speedy solution of the century old schism in Malankara.

                  With regards,
                  CJ Varughese
                  Mem ID # 1012
                • Sinoj Edayanal
                  Dear Brothers, I really feel very euphoric seeing the valuable messages from Rev. Dn Joel and from Mike wingert regarding the recent discussion regarding the
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 7 11:37 PM
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                    Dear Brothers,

                    I really feel very euphoric seeing the valuable messages from Rev. Dn
                    Joel and from Mike wingert regarding the recent discussion regarding
                    the subject related IOC nuisance. I strongly agree and support to Dn.
                    Joel about his opinion about the father from ireland. I appreciate if
                    he utilize his knowledge for spreading the doctrine of christian love. He will sometimes act as the real angel from heaven, even sometimes critising and belittiling the priests of their on Kanjikuzhy society. Once i have a argument with him and finally he told his wife is from jacobite faction and he respect the belief of his inlaws but later his posting reveals his depth of respect to his inlaws belief.

                    Form run by moderator Bindu once send me a personal message that bad languages cannot not be used in the forum messages and i need edit the message which i wrote as a reply to this priest.

                    They mentioned this about a phrase I used "koduthal kollathum kittum". I still dont think that this is a bad language. But recently they are expressing all nasty words reagrding the head of the Universal Syrian Orthodox church H.H Bava and about our catholicose H B Bava. Even one of the recent message from an elder express in his message the full form of Dn., which is the short form of Decon in all christian churches, as demon. I strongly believe that this is not only his view but also the great teaching from the Kanjikuzhy society.

                    Friends, our supreme head, the real holy father of our church is planning to visit Malankara to see his beloveds and children. Kanjikuzhy society and its priests dont blank out that the first name
                    you remember in holy qurbana on every sunday is of this father. How can we empathise their prayers, if they are acting one way in the altar and behaving other way outside.

                    Kanjikuzhy society always proudly says that there is a kabar of Mar
                    Thoma sleeha at Devalokam. Please remeber that the holy relics placed
                    there is handovered to them from this same holy father.

                    The clergies and hirarchies which belongs to the American diocese of this kanjikuzhy society is the real manipulators and actors. They can act like anything. Those people who migrated in early 60's and 70's still believing that Jacobites (real succcedors of Mor Yakub Bordhono) in malankara are still foolish and they can be cheated
                    easily like the act of 70's reunion. Some priest from kanjikuzhy
                    society (annointed thrikunathu chapel manager) sometimes visit these
                    domains, and recreate these olden-golden days through his 70 model
                    kadha prasangam. So the faithful believe that everything is going to
                    be same. A Rev. Decon belongs to this part heralded a church union in
                    70 model in his previous message with a sugaring words of christianity. This is a clear evidence of their attitude.

                    They can do all nasty things in the Jacobite churches and can pour
                    crocodile tears. If these people are educated enough, first chore is
                    to make understand this christianity to their leaders in the
                    kanjikuzhy aramana.

                    There is nothing to wonder, this Kanjikuzhy society is born,
                    broughtup and now existing in lies, treachery and perfidiousness.
                    so have to expect all these faces of these peoples.

                    May His Love and Mercy endure all.

                    Sinoj Edayanal
                    Canada
                    # 4009

                    --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Dn. Joel Jacob wrote:
                    >
                    > Beloved Moderators,
                    >
                    > I thought it would be appropriate to share this with SOCM members
                    > since our "IOC" member from Ireland makes a lot of noise here. He
                    > calls himself "Fr. George Thankachan".
                    >
                    > Written May 1, 2008:
                    >
                    > ".......I know HH.Ignatios Zacha Ivas I is just a helpless holy
                    > puppet in the hands of the greatest manipulator of our time-HB
                    Thomas
                  • Johnson
                    Dear Rev.Deacon Joel, Thank you very much for your effort to reveal the dual attitude of Fr.George T from Ireland. I never go through IO Forums and the ones
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 8 1:20 AM
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                      Dear Rev.Deacon Joel,

                      Thank you very much for your effort to reveal the dual attitude of
                      Fr.George T from Ireland. I never go through IO Forums and the ones
                      posted by him in this forum except his latest one were indeed
                      thought provoking. By reading his messages I was under the
                      impression that he is a learned priest who stands for peace but now
                      I am realising that he is not different from any other fanatic HIS-
                      STORIAN. In his latest posting Fr. George has said that the present
                      H.H the Patriarch is not approved by the 1934 constitution as the
                      patriarch of Antioch and hence he and his church cannot give
                      reverence to HH as the head of the church. I request Fr. George T to
                      produce a list of Patriarchs who were approved by the Holy 1934
                      Bible. Also I would like to know for which Patriarch you pray in the
                      1'st Dypthic?, whether your church will show the courage to respect
                      your own constitution by disowning the prelates like St.Greogorious
                      and your St. Vattasseril of the pre 1934 era who obeyed the Holy
                      Patriarchs (again not approved by 1934)?, If you do every thing as
                      per the 1934 constitution why you are silent on the fake ordination
                      of Rabban Gurgan of Germany by your 2 bishops?. Is your present
                      Catholicose the approved /legal Malankara Metropolitan? If so why
                      your own people have filed cases against his appointment?.

                      It is very funny that the sons will approve father before calling
                      him as father.

                      As a priest who celebrates the Holy Eucharist please desist from
                      provocative writings and false propaganda. By doing so you may
                      achieve some position in your church but it will not certainly help
                      you during the final judgement.

                      In his love,

                      Johnson
                      #2335.

                      --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Dn. Joel Jacob wrote:
                      >
                      > Beloved Moderators,
                      >
                      > I thought it would be appropriate to share this with SOCM members
                      > since our "IOC" member from Ireland makes a lot of noise here. He
                      > calls himself "Fr. George Thankachan".
                      >
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