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Re:Mission of the Holy Church

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  • Paul Joshy
    Dear CJ Your message regarding how our Holy church survived over 20 centuries in India in spite of onslaught from different quarters during various times, is
    Message 1 of 14 , May 1, 2008
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      Dear CJ

      Your message regarding how our Holy church survived over 20 centuries in India in spite of onslaught from different quarters during various times, is timely noticeable. As you pointed out largest and longest attack continued for almost 100 years and is still continuing from the so called Indian Orthodox church. Recently I have read one editorial by Fr Dr M O. John in Malankara Sabha Deepam (one of the leading Orthodox publication) that the "Antochian colonisation actually began ever since mavelikkara padiyola(*held in 1836 at the Mavelikara Puthiyakavu St.Mary's church)* , which was to counter the
      influence of CMS missionaries that eventually brought together Syrian
      Christians in Kerala and firmly established Patriarchal Supremacy in
      Malankara", and again the article went further that it was the "great
      mistake" of Cheppadu Mor Divanyasios, who convened this meeting without any vision and helped to write the Padiyola by which Malankara church brought under Antioch.

      In fact, this kind of "selective" attack does not deserve any kind of
      attention as they have simply negated the heroic work of Abdul Jaleel Bawa for concretising Malankara church with the Holy church who came to Malankara 200 years before Mavelikara Padiyola was written. Instead, now Orthodox group says that Abdul Jaleel Bawa had no relationship with Holy Syrian Church and he was just a patriarch of Jerusalem ( poor orthodox group doesn't know the relationship between Jerusalem patriarch and Patriarch of the Holy Syrian church)

      Orthodox faction now a days tries to project Abdul Jaleel Bawa as one of their saint and has recently set up one church in the name of Bawa in Iduki, the aim is to make money in the name of Bawa. But poor Cheppadu Mor Divanyasios thurmeni's tomb does not provide that kind of money so was he a foot soldier of Antioch (They also claim that Parumala thirumeni, Omallur Bawa and Kothmangalam Bawa are the common saints of Malankara- because of money at the tombs of these churches).

      At the same time until the present Left government came to power in Kerala, the orthodox faction had created a hype that almost 80 percent of the Syrian Christians were belonging to oxthodox church with the support of Manorama�Muthoot�Oomman Chandy (Media�Money�Power), but lately except manorama all other people including common citizens, other media, government and other Christian denominations have realised that it was a false claim and only muscle and money power helped to create such claims. And now Orthodox group thinks a visit of Patriarch to kerala would weaken their position so as to slip their grip further away from the establishment, that is why they are creating such concern and consternation.

      By
      J M. Paul
      ID 4030
    • Bibu Philip Matthew
      Shlomo By the grace of God,we have successfully defeated Portuguese Colonial Forces persecution as early as 1653 AD,we have successfully defeated the great
      Message 2 of 14 , May 3, 2008
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        Shlomo

        By the grace of God,we have successfully defeated Portuguese Colonial Forces' persecution as early as 1653 AD,we have successfully defeated the great English Empire's subversion against Holy church as early as 1876 AD.And we have successfully overcome the coup detat of false prophets within church promoted by one of the big regional Press(Malayala Manorama) of India.So far nothing has stopped the Holy Church from its functiong in India,even the great Press have failed. This is beacause 'truth will prevail' and the words of Jesus Christ entrusting Peter to be head of church will be fulfilled,it may not be in numbers,but in substance.

        The services of Holy Throne of Antioch and its delegates in India are great.There is no other church in the world like us whose prophets came empty handed to India,guided by spirit of God and preserved us on our request.Being the first community or organisation of India to resist colonial forces for right to worship,we are no small people,even Indian freedom struggle started only in 1870s(I presume). But we started our personal struggle as early as 1653, this shows our great vision and strength.

        Regarding Manorama,late Varghese Mapillai was a good man who honoured the Holy Throne of Antioch and has written,in praise of services of Holy Throne of Antioch in India. But after his death when Mammen Mapillai took control of Manorama, policy changed and supported schism in holy church. Gone are their days of media monopoly, as today there are many malayalam media to report matters in truth.

        What ever it is 'the Plan God has purposed nobody can thwart.

        Rgds,
        Bibu Philip Matthew
        0074
      • Sajy Thannikkottu
        Could anyone shed light to the relationship between SOC Patriarch & Jerusalem Patriarch as mentioned in this message Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu # 2912 ...
        Message 3 of 14 , May 5, 2008
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          Could anyone shed light to the relationship between SOC Patriarch &
          Jerusalem Patriarch as mentioned in this message

          Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
          # 2912


          --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Paul Joshy wrote:
          >
          > Dear CJ
          >
          >
          > In fact, this kind of "selective" attack does not deserve any kind of
          > attention as they have simply negated the heroic work of Abdul
          Jaleel Bawa for concretising Malankara church with the Holy church who
          came to Malankara 200 years before Mavelikara Padiyola was written.
          Instead, now Orthodox group says that Abdul Jaleel Bawa had no
          relationship with Holy Syrian Church and he was just a patriarch of
          Jerusalem ( poor orthodox group doesn't know the relationship between
          Jerusalem patriarch and Patriarch of the Holy Syrian church)
          >
          >
          >
          > By
          > J M. Paul
          > ID 4030
          >
        • Johnson
          Shlomo, The Syriac Orthodox bishop in Jerusalem used to be honararily decorated as the 5th Patriarch (or Jerusalem Patriarch) with the name Mor Gregorious
          Message 4 of 14 , May 7, 2008
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            Shlomo,

            The Syriac Orthodox bishop in Jerusalem used to be honararily
            decorated as the 5th Patriarch (or Jerusalem Patriarch) with the
            name 'Mor Gregorious' like Mor Iganatius for the Holy Patriarch, Mor
            Baselious for the H.B Catholicose. This honour was provided by the
            church in large due to the importance and significance of Jerusalem.
            We do pray in 1'st Dypthic as 'Innum ee ayushkalathum namme meyichu
            bharikkunna nammude pathriayarkkesanmaraya Moran Mor Ignathiosinu
            vendium Aboon Mor Gregoriousinu vendiyum Aboon Mor Baseliousinu
            vendiyum ...........

            In his love
            Johnson
            #2335.

            --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Sajy Thannikkottu wrote:
            >
            > Could anyone shed light to the relationship between SOC Patriarch &
            > Jerusalem Patriarch as mentioned in this message
            >
            > Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
            > # 2912
            >
            >
            > --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Paul Joshy wrote:
            > >
          • Paul Joshy
            Dear Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu For the basis of my arguement see the following words and related sites. It is as just opposite to what the IOC s preachings
            Message 5 of 14 , May 8, 2008
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              Dear Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu

              For the basis of my arguement see the following words and related sites. It is as just opposite to what the IOC's preachings regarding Abdul Jallel Bawa and well as Jerusalem patriarch.
              **
              *Britannica online encyclopedia *article on *Syrian Orthodox
              Patriarchate*of Antioch *......* it has been the main custodian of the Christian holy places in * Jerusalem*.

              http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9070778/Syrian-Orthodox-Patriarchate-of-Antioch - 53k

              *Wikipedia.* Abdul Jaleel was born in
              Mosul<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosul>,
              Iraq <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq>. In 1654 he was ordained
              Metropolitan bishop for the Ameed (Diyarbaker) diocese in
              Turkey<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey>by the Patriarch Mar
              Ignatius She'mun<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mar_Ignatius_She%27mun&action=edit&redlink=1>.

              In AD. 1664, he was elevated as the Metropolitan of Jerusalem with the title Mar Gregorios. Due to the significance of the city, the Metropolitan of Jerusalem is referred to as the 5th Patriarch in the Syrian Orthodox tradition . He traveled to India

              <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India> in AD
              1665 to regularize the ordination of Mar Thoma
              I<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar_Thoma_I>and to oppose the
              Portuguese <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Empire>().

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar_Gregorios_Abdul_Jaleel

              *Parurchurch/Saint*. Abdul Jaleel Mor Gregorios Bava belong to the city of Moosal. He was the Bishop of the City of Ameed (Dayarbaker) and nearby places for ten years. Thereafter, His Holiness was elevated to become the Patriarch of Jerusalem (Fifth Patriarch).()

              http://www.margregoriousyouthassociation.org/thesaint.htm

              Paul Joshy
              # 4030
            • Sajy Thannikkottu
              Thank you for this message. Does it mean Jerusalem Patriarch is a position similar to the one of H B Catholicose and similarly leads a community under HH Zakha
              Message 6 of 14 , May 8, 2008
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                Thank you for this message.

                Does it mean Jerusalem Patriarch is a position similar to the one of H
                B Catholicose and similarly leads a community under HH Zakha Iwas.

                Or, is Jerusalem Patriarch a head like any other orthodox church head?

                Please rectify

                Sajy Thannikkottu
                # 2912

                --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Johnson wrote:
                >
                > Shlomo,
                >
                > The Syriac Orthodox bishop in Jerusalem used to be honararily
                > decorated as the 5th Patriarch (or Jerusalem Patriarch) with the
                > name 'Mor Gregorious' like Mor Iganatius for the Holy Patriarch, Mor
                > Baselious for the H.B Catholicose. This honour was provided by the
                > church in large due to the importance and significance of Jerusalem.
                > We do pray in 1'st Dypthic as 'Innum ee ayushkalathum namme meyichu
                > bharikkunna nammude pathriayarkkesanmaraya Moran Mor Ignathiosinu
                > vendium Aboon Mor Gregoriousinu vendiyum Aboon Mor Baseliousinu
                > vendiyum ...........
              • Johnson
                Dear brother in Christ, I feel that either you are confused or pretends to be confused. It is evident from the church history that the title of Jerusalem
                Message 7 of 14 , May 12, 2008
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                  Dear brother in Christ,

                  I feel that either you are confused or pretends to be confused. It
                  is evident from the church history that the title of Jerusalem
                  Patriarch or 5th Patriarch is only decorative to the Syriac Orthodox
                  Arch bishop of Jersuslem and as any other bishop H.E is leading a
                  diocese under H.H Patriarch.

                  In his love
                  Johnson
                  #2335

                  --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Sajy Thannikkottu wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you for this message.
                  >
                  > Does it mean Jerusalem Patriarch is a position similar to the one
                  of H
                  > B Catholicose and similarly leads a community under HH Zakha Iwas.
                  >
                • Sajy Thannikkottu
                  Dear brother Are you referring to Patriarchal-Vicarate of Jerusalem and Jordan: Mor Severius Malke Mourad? Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu # 2912
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 12, 2008
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                    Dear brother

                    Are you referring to Patriarchal-Vicarate of Jerusalem and Jordan: Mor
                    Severius Malke Mourad?

                    Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
                    # 2912

                    --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Johnson wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear brother in Christ,
                    >
                    > I feel that either you are confused or pretends to be confused. It
                    > is evident from the church history that the title of Jerusalem
                    > Patriarch or 5th Patriarch is only decorative to the Syriac Orthodox
                    > Arch bishop of Jersuslem and as any other bishop H.E is leading a
                    > diocese under H.H Patriarch.
                  • Shinu Jesus Abraham
                    Greetings to all Let us don t blame the priests or the laymen of IOC for their lack of knowledge on history, Patriarchate or Jerusalem Patriarch. It is the
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 13, 2008
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                      Greetings to all

                      Let us don't blame the priests or the laymen of IOC for their lack
                      of knowledge on history, Patriarchate or Jerusalem Patriarch. It is
                      the result of all the manipulations of top think tanks of MOC
                      (Malankara/ Manorama / Muthoot - whatever fits can be read)
                      especially in the last 40+ years. Let us only try to help them –
                      those willing let them see with their eyes, hear with their ears and
                      understand with their hearts.

                      Those priests who believe in Priesthood may refer the scolarary
                      work "Mathopadesa Sarangal" by Mor Dionysius Geevarghese Vattasseril
                      who created IOC understands from where the apostolic succession is
                      from, before commenting "the Patriarch is not accepted by Malankara
                      Sabha". Please don't comment before understanding the manipulations
                      already made on the original work.

                      Those who don't know who was St. Peter and what he was assigned can
                      read another scholarary work in the below link. Pages 29,30 do refer
                      in detail about the Patriarch of Jerusalem too.

                      http://www.geocities.com/malankaraorthodoxfaith/ThomasAthanasius_Initial_Page.htm

                      Those who don't know the church history can have a quick reference
                      at the very famous mulamthuruthy padiola. Below is a link short and
                      sweet which was hand written by our own Kochu Thirumeni who believed
                      and practiced that SOC faith his whole life. May be a scroll through
                      the signatories may reveal some of our close relatives / forefathers
                      who did pledge on behalf of us too.

                      http://www.geocities.com/parumalathirumeni/Padiyola_Malayalam.htm

                      and

                      http://www.syrianchurch.org/MalankaraSyrianChurch/MalankaraHistory.htm

                      Those interested to know the chronological order of our hierarchs in
                      SOC may refer the below links which cannot be produced by any of the
                      20th century churches

                      http://sor.cua.edu/Patriarchate/PatriarchsChronList.html

                      and

                      http://catholicose.org/PauloseII/Catholicate.htm


                      Those still interested to learn more may find the below link equally
                      interesting and useful.

                      http://www.syrianchurch.org/Books.htm

                      May God bless us all

                      Shinu Jesus Abraham
                      Id # 2908
                    • Sajy Thannikkottu
                      Though Shinu s message wasn t addressed to me I thought to respond as it appeared under my message. My question Are you referring to Patriarchal-Vicarate of
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 16, 2008
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                        Though Shinu's message wasn't addressed to me I thought to respond as it appeared under my message. My question "Are you referring to Patriarchal-Vicarate of Jerusalem and Jordan: Mor Severius Malke Mourad?" was a kind of one word question-answer.

                        I am not ashamed of accepting if I don't know. I am not interested in discussing topics such as IOC or SOC thinktanks as mentioned. I remember a similar inconclusive debate with you had sometime back. And this time I asked this question as a continuation of a message posted here.

                        Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
                        # 2912
                      • Shinu Jesus Abraham
                        Dear Sajy To my limited knowledge Patriarchal-Vicarate of Jerusalem and Jordan: Mor Severius Malke Mourad is the current successor of Mor Abdul Jaleel Bava,
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 17, 2008
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                          Dear Sajy

                          To my limited knowledge Patriarchal-Vicarate of Jerusalem and
                          Jordan: Mor Severius Malke Mourad is the current successor of Mor
                          Abdul Jaleel Bava, though centuries of trials and tribulations have
                          reduced the power and size of the holy seat. Many of the
                          metropolitans and catholicose of both SOC and IOC have visited this
                          partriarchate and have conducted holy Eucharist in the very famous
                          St. Marks monastery in the last century. Hope some learned can
                          through some light on the history.

                          http://www.syrianchurch.org/Paravur/StGregorios.htm

                          and

                          http://www.saintgregorios.org/PARUMALA/pilgrimage.htm

                          Shinu Jesus Abraham
                          ID # 2908

                          --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Sajy Thannikkottu wrote:
                          >
                          > Though Shinu's message wasn't addressed to me I thought to respond
                          as it appeared under my message. My question "Are you referring to
                          Patriarchal-Vicarate of Jerusalem and Jordan: Mor Severius Malke
                          Mourad?" was a kind of one word question-answer.
                          >
                        • Sajy Thannikkottu
                          Dear brothers Seeing the tone of of some messages I thought those who posted them could be well studied. I hope someone in the forum could help me to know more
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 19, 2008
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                            Dear brothers

                            Seeing the tone of of some messages I thought those who posted them
                            could be well studied. I hope someone in the forum could help me to
                            know more about the current Jerussalem Patriarch. I haven't seen
                            anything introducing Mor Severius Malke Mourad as Mor Gregorious in
                            SOC websites. As refering in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/12415 we remember Mor Gregorious not Mor Severius

                            Ps: Most of us fight only because we have seen some others in that
                            fight. We've taken a side only because others have taken a side. For a
                            Typical Malayali, it is not necessary to know the reason before
                            entering a warfield.

                            regards

                            Sajy Thannikkottu, Kathmandu
                            # 2912
                          • Sunny M. Jacob
                            Dear All, I find a transition for the subject text on comparing 2 Holy Qurbana Kramam, ie. 1. H Qubana kramam (MSOT Seminary 2003 edition) which gives ....
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 21, 2008
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                              Dear All,
                              I find a transition for the subject text on comparing 2 Holy Qurbana
                              Kramam, ie.
                              1. H Qubana kramam (MSOT Seminary 2003 edition) which gives "....
                              nammude Pathriyarkkisaya Moran Mor Ignathiouse Zakka Pradhamanu
                              vendiyum sreshta Katholikka Aboon Mor Baseliouse Thomas Pradhamanu
                              vendiyum nammude melpattakkaran..... nu vendiyum..."

                              2. Aradhana Sahayi, onnaam bhagam, kollavarsham 1122)- "nammude
                              Pathriyarkkisaya Aboon Mar Ignathiousinu vendiyum, nammude
                              melpattakkaran Mor--- nu vendiyum"

                              Can any one explain the tansition.

                              Kindly shower light to the 1'st Dypthic that is read and prayed in
                              Our Holy Church under the Holy See of Antioch, that
                              states "....nammude Pathriyarkkisaya...." and not "....nammude
                              pathriayarkkesanmaraya...."

                              My brother in Christ Mr.Johnson, could you please define plurality
                              of Holy Patriarch from what you have mentioned.

                              Sunny
                              ID #3320
                              --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Johnson wrote:
                              >
                              > Shlomo,
                              >
                              > The Syriac Orthodox bishop in Jerusalem used to be honararily
                              > decorated as the 5th Patriarch (or Jerusalem Patriarch) with the
                              > name 'Mor Gregorious' like Mor Iganatius for the Holy Patriarch,
                              Mor
                              > Baselious for the H.B Catholicose. This honour was provided by the
                              > church in large due to the importance and significance of
                              Jerusalem.
                              > We do pray in 1'st Dypthic as 'Innum ee ayushkalathum namme meyichu
                              > bharikkunna nammude pathriayarkkesanmaraya Moran Mor Ignathiosinu
                              > vendium Aboon Mor Gregoriousinu vendiyum Aboon Mor Baseliousinu
                              > vendiyum ...........
                              >
                              > In his love
                              > Johnson
                              > #2335.
                              >
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