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‘Knanaya Sabha’ or ‘Knanaya Archdiocese’

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  • Alex Thomas
    Dear Prem and all, Your concern is shared by many members of the Jacobite Syrian Orthotdox Church. Even though the knanayites in kerala who is under the
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 3, 2008
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      Dear Prem and all,

      Your concern is shared by many members of the Jacobite Syrian
      Orthotdox Church. Even though the knanayites in kerala who is under
      the Patriarchate of Antioch is described as Knanaya Archdiocese of
      Universal Syrian Orthodox Church, most of the time they are using the title knanaya sabha, knanaya suriyani sabha or some times knanaya samudayam. They are not even using the term Jacobite with them, so we cannot suspect it to be some tactics of manorama and devalokam.

      This usage is apparent if you notice the name boards of knanaya
      churches under the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch. I am from kottayam not
      much away from the knanaya center of Chingavanam, I travel often to
      ranni, mallappally etc the southern centers of Knanayites but rarely
      I have seen any name board for their churches which decribe it as a
      Jacobite or Syrian Orthodox Church but it will be like `knanaya
      pally' or `knanaya suriyani pally'. It will become more interesting
      when we compare it with the other division of knanayites under the
      Roman Catholics, they don't officially describe their church as
      Knanaya but the name board will be St.xxxxxx Roman Catholic Church
      (Under the Archdiocese of Kottayam). Feel the difference how much
      both the divisions integrate themselves to the respective mainstream
      church.

      Even though Knanayites in Kerala are part of regional Syrian Orthodox Community, I feel they are always keeping a distance from the Mainstream Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox church. The
      announcement of two more bishops from this small community is
      also interesting, though we all pray that may the knanayites flourish under the leadership of many able bishops. With the number of metropolitans reaching three or above I think soon they may get
      separated from the regional Jacobite synod and demand establishment
      of another separate synodal entity for them under the HH patriarch
      which I guess will be the first step towards the instigation of a
      succession line for them most probably with the name "Great
      Metropolitan of The East' another off shoot from the lineage of Chief primates of the East under the Petrine Throne of Antioch. Any way if it materializes, two succession line of the same lineage under the same Church, will definitely not serve the unity of Syrian Orthodox Christians in India.

      Regards,

      Alex Thomas
      # 971



      --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Prem Jacob wrote:
      >
      > All the news papers that carried this news today mentioned the term
      Knanaya 'Sabha'. Knanaya is only a 'samudayam' or a Badharsanam /
      Diocese of the Universal Syriac Orthodox Church. How can all the
      newspapers publish the same term, if it was only Manorama it probably
    • Mathew G
      Daar Members, Our friend Alex Thomas brings up a very good point here. He says: I think soon they (Knanaya Archdiocese) may get separated from the regional
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 11, 2008
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        Daar Members,

        Our friend Alex Thomas brings up a very good point here. He says: " I
        think soon they (Knanaya Archdiocese) may get separated from the
        regional Jacobite synod and demand establishment of another separate
        synodal entity for them under the HH patriarch."

        My response is, this has already happened. Please refer to article
        4:30 and 4:31 of the "1998 Constitution of the Syriac Orthodox
        Church".

        http://www.soc-wus.org/ourchurch/constitutioneng.html

        The 'Knanaya Archdiocese' and the 'Catholicate of India' are
        considered as two archdiocese with in the Syriac Orthodox Synod. The
        Knanaya is not part of the Synod of the Malankara Church as per the
        1998 constitution.

        Also refer to article 36 of the Constitution. It states, "His
        Beatitude the Catholicos, the Metropolitan of the Knanaya
        Archdiocese, the Metropolitans of the churches of the Antiochian
        Apostolic See in India, and the Metropolitan of North America of the
        Malankara Archdiocese. All above shall elect but may not be
        elected."

        As you can see the Knanaya Metropolitan can participate in the
        election, but say the Metropolitan of Kottayam or Niranam or Angamaly
        cannot. The statement that "All above shall elect but may not be
        elected." is also interesting. I don't completely understand why.

        Now if you refer to the 2002 Jacobite Syrian Christian Constitution
        you can find the same thing.

        http://tinyurl.com/53lhtl

        Article 26 on page 13 talks about the Malankara Synod. It says that
        the Metropolitans directly under the Patriarch, namely the Knanaya
        Bishop is not part of the Malankara Synod but can be invited as a
        special guest.

        Here are my questions:

        1) Why can't the "Catholicose" be elected as the Patriarch?

        If you go thru history many previous Catholicoi were elected as
        Patriarch's of Antioch. Just scroll down to the list " MAPHRIYONO
        (Maphrian) OF THE EAST" on
        http://catholicose.org/PauloseII/Catholicate.htm

        2) Why do we have an Archdiocese in the church based on ethnicity,
        where members loose their membership if they marry outside their
        ethnic group?

        If a member of the Knanaya Archdiocese gets married to a non-Knanaya
        Jacobite, he/she can no longer be part of that Archdiocese? Is this
        correct ?

        3) Why not address H.B Thomas I as Moran Mor ? Why has nobody
        responded to my posting:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/12114


        In Christ,
        Mathew G
        0929




        --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Alex Thomas wrote:
        >
        With the number of metropolitans reaching three or above I think
        soon they may get
        > separated from the regional Jacobite synod and demand establishment
        > of another separate synodal entity for them under the HH patriarch
        > which I guess will be the first step towards the instigation of a
        > succession line for them most probably with the name "Great
        > Metropolitan of The East' another off shoot from the lineage of
        Chief primates of the East under the Petrine Throne of Antioch. Any
        way if it materializes, two succession line of the same lineage under
        the same Church, will definitely not serve the unity of Syrian
        Orthodox Christians in India.
        >
      • Kochumon Mannicherry
        Dear moderator Iread few messages here regarding Knanaya Samudhayam and its position. Being a Knanaite myself i don t think neither knanaites nor jacobites
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 20, 2008
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          Dear moderator

          Iread few messages here regarding Knanaya Samudhayam and its position. Being a Knanaite myself i don't think neither knanaites nor jacobites ever considered knanaites as part of main stream Jacobites.But both parties always accepted each other as part of their church in faith.You cannot reject the fact Knanaites always participate with Jacobites during their struggle.We Knanaites always been proud to be part of most ancient faith of SOC(locally Jacobites).Personally i dont think number of metropolitans in Knanaya samudhayam have any effect on relationship with Jacobites in
          Malankara. In reality the participation of Knanaya metropolitan in
          Malankara synod always been minimal since the formation of knanaya
          dioces (mostly nothing) so dose the participation of Catholicose in
          Knanaya association.

          Most Knanaites don't think they need more than one metropolitan but that's their internal affairs i don't think Jacobites should interfere in it.Don't forget Knanaites never say anything about forming new diocese for Jacobites where there are only few Churches for Jacobites.At the end of the day each Churches,diocese catholicate and patriarchates are independent in their own right.Don't forget Kanaya samudhayam is not in effect bounded by Jacobite or Devalokam constitutions,its bounded by its own constitution as Jacobites and Kottayam(sorry i don't call metran
          kashi as IOC because India never had its own Church) and the constitution of Knanaites where formed well before these constitutions.

          I saw someone mentioned its not right to form Diocese in relation to ethnicity.I am sorry to question the practise Jacobite church but in reality Malankara Jacobites are no different.Why dose we have separate metropolitans for Syrian Christians of Indian origin out side India? Don't you think the Churches in UK should be under Metropolitan of London,Churches in America under the Syrian metropolitans in America and Churches in Europe under European Arch diocese. Above all don't ignore the fact Patriarch gave permission for Malankara Churches in middileeast to stay under Catholicate.This is all based on ethnicity of Syrian Christians of Indian origin.

          Why worry about a samudhayam which do not open membership to others? because its only going to reduce in numbers. I hate the fact Knanaya samudhayam dont let knanaite marry from out side; why because its only causing damage in this era; eventually Knanaya samudhayam will left with no choice but to accept the reality and approve marriage from outside.Personally i think even when this happens we should stay as a separate samudhayam may be because i am used it but reality is sudden integration will be impossible. And Knanaites will be a living memory of Syrian migration and adaptation of Syrian traditions.I know Jacobite Churches which do not approve the membership request of Knanaites who married from outside and many places they end up joining to Malankara reath Church(i wonder why knanaites want to stay separate).

          Please i request the readers not to consider this message as hatred mind of a Knanaite.At the end of the day Malankara Jacobites and Knanaites are two sides of a coin.We both carry the great traditions of Malankara church and share the true faith of Holy mother church.I regularly go to both Jacobite and Knanaya Churches i never had any trouble enjoying my spiritual feeling there.I have Jacobite friends who share my views.I have great respect to my fellow Jacobite so dose other Knanaites; i always defended my faith(The SOC faith)among my friend who are members of pentecostal,catholic(including Knanaya Catholic)and devalokam church.Opportunits can use any thing to separate people including just a headline from corrupted anti Jacobite daily;but its always difficult promote love and cooperation between different people.Greatest gift of Holy Spirit is love and to promote that is the greatest thing a true Christian can do.

          Kochumon Mannicherry
          # 1019
        • Alex John
          I totally agree with Mr Kochumon s reply. This type of information(ie Knanaya jacobites are going to establish a new Catholicate in India and to become a
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 21, 2008
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            I totally agree with Mr Kochumon's reply. This type of information(ie
            Knanaya jacobites are going to establish a new Catholicate in India and to become a rebel to our catholicos) i have seen first in a methran kashi fanatic website. Its really sad to see few hatred messages from our own members regarding this issue. Please dont try to spread hatred among members of Jacobites and Kanaya Jacobites. I feel there are some hidden agendas behind this.As kochumon correctly told we are two sides of a coin. i am attending service at St: Peters and St: Pauls JSO church Bglore, what i heard from my firends there is like In the early stages of that church, knayana jacobites helped a lot for that church, even after that for re construction of the same they have given a helping hand. And one more thing is like i have seen a message from a beloved member in this forum saying that he is going to a Knanaya Jacobite church in Malappuram or Kannur district, what is wrong in that, so my simple request to the learned members of this forum is that please dont try to pass hatred messages among brothers.

            Alex John
            2321
          • Shinu Jesus Abraham
            Greetings to All I could only agree with Mr. Kochumon s post especially with the below. Once upon a time in the beautiful strip of south India there was a
            Message 5 of 7 , May 8 2:08 AM
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              Greetings to All

              I could only agree with Mr. Kochumon's post especially with the below.

              Once upon a time in the beautiful strip of south India there was a
              group of blessed "Suriyani Christianikal". They didn't had had any
              metropolitans for many centuries but still were very much united and
              respected. Then came many schisms and breakaways...resulting in
              ordinations of Metropolitans. Further it became necessary for each to
              expand further resulting in divisions into diocese and even more
              Metropolitans.. Now nobody know how many denominations are there in
              in "Gods own country" and no idea of the total number of
              Metropolitans. So we can very easily say the number of Metropolitans
              in any Samudayam/ Sabha/ Denomination is not a reflection of its
              prosperity but can be the opposite or else Kerala must have become a
              Heaven by now. The short term advantages are masking the long term
              disadvantages and differences which are resulting in the
              disintegrations and divisions- at least the history say so.

              But the most disturbing is that even with all these it is the "Tanku
              bro's and Mullakkara bro's are today's heroes who provide "feasts" and preach "half gospels" and "quarter gospels". Just a ride around
              central tranvancore will show the multitude behind them and the
              palatial properties they own in prime areas where traditional churches are struggling and is still debating "who won in 1958, who won in 1995 and more importantly who is going to win in 1925 and how much profits we can generate by running a educational or similar institutions...

              Some metropolitans CV reveal they have closed down more churches than
              they initiated and started. Long time we all lost our way and no one
              understands it.

              I earnestly wish i will be proved wrong.

              May God help us all Suriyani Christians.

              Shinu Jesus Abraham
              Id # 2908

              --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Kochumon Mannicherry wrote:
              >
              >
              > Most Knanaites don't think they need more than one metropolitan but
              that's their internal affairs i don't think Jacobites should interfere
              in it.Don't forget Knanaites never say anything about forming new
              diocese for Jacobites where there are only few Churches for Jacobites..
              >
              > Kochumon Mannicherry
              > # 1019
              >
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