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Five Questions to “Indian” Catholicose

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  • Paul Joshy
    *Five Questions to Indian Catholicose* To T.George achen, Ireland You and your group time and again propagates that Catholicate established in India in
    Message 1 of 3 , Apr 2, 2008
      *Five Questions to "Indian" Catholicose*

      T.George achen, Ireland

      You and your group time and again propagates that 'Catholicate" established in India in 1912 is attributed to the 'independence' of Malankara church and 'Catholica is as equal to Pathriyarkeese'. But if all this things are true and fact full then can you answer to my following questions;

      1. If the ordination of Catholica in 1912 was an initiative for
      'independence' then why did Vattasseril Methran invite a Pathriyarkeese from Antioch (even though he was deposed from the thrown by then) to consecrate a Catholica in India, instead he and his group could have consecrated a Catholica by themselves, but not, why ?

      2. Why did Vattasseril methran meet H.H. Elias III Pathirakeese and
      sought to getting overturned his excommunication conferred upon him by H.H.Abdul Missiah Patraiarkeese following his rebellion against Antioch in 1912, if he wanted "independence" for his church?

      3. It is a known fact that Marthoma Syrian Church and Malankara Reeth
      have been separated from the Holy Syrian Church in different times and they transformed or created their own way of Qurbana and other prayers according to their beliefs and preachings, although liturgy is still same but words have been changed, but Orthodox group still follow the Antiochian liturgy, no changes even for words, why?

      4. Why do you people still remember Syrian Pathriarchs and ancient
      Syrian church leaders in thubden?

      5. Why did Vattasseril methran demand to hold the key by himself of
      the room in the old seminary where church's money and all other documents had been keeping from the then Church trustee C A Kurian and secretary Konattu Mathan Malpan, that posts were created by the Mulanthuruthy synod for the smooth administration of the church against a possible autocracy of Malankara Methrapolitha and your church still follows that posts? This shows that the rebellion occurred because of Vattasseril methran's thirst for power and money?

      J M Paul
      New Delhi
      # 4030
    • Fr. George T.
      Dear Mr.Paul, I am answering to your querries with the hope that the moderator will let my postings come up in this forum. My conviction is that I always keep
      Message 2 of 3 , Apr 5, 2008
        Dear Mr.Paul,

        I am answering to your querries with the hope that the moderator will let my postings come up in this forum. My conviction is that I always keep decorum in this forum with due respect to everyone and a sense of humility. I don't want to be argumentative but if this posting of mine helps us to know each other and come closer,I would be content.

        1. Please tell me who pronounced the declaration of Indian Independence on 15 August,1947? Was it Gandhiji who fought Indian independence? Then you will find yourself the answer why did Vattacheril thirumeni invite the then Patriarch for the establishment of Catholicate in India in 1912. Please note that Malankara (Indian) Orthodox Church wanted an autonomy and autocephaly in matters of administration and at the same time wanted and still want to maintain cordial relation with the The Orthodox church of Syria in complete inter- communion. Spiritually we are in union with Syrian Church but in temporal matters tend to differ with them. We want to keep our identity. Gone are the days of servitude. Let me ask you one question. Was HH Abdul Messaih Patriach deposed or usurped by Abdulla Patriarch? What was the reson for his deposition?

        2. St. Dionysius of Vattacheril was an obedient child of Christ and a disciplined metran in the holy Church and he had great loyalty and allegience to the patriarch and had special devotion to Elias III Bava. They were very close in their friendship. It throws a flood of light into the dignity and humility of Vattacheril thirumeni. He was very transparent and true to the core. But his holiness wanted to keep the dignity of his church intact.

        3. Please bear in mind that the present liturgy that we all use is not the result of the the fathers in the orthodox church in syria alone but also we have borrowed many things form other sister churches also. The first and the main liturgy- the liturgy of St.James is attributed to the first bishop and head of the church of Jerusalem-the mother of all churches. How come the greek terms like' Sthoumen kalos' into a church which use the syriac language only? Liturgy is as a result of inter-culturalization over the years. What the Indian Orthodox Church has done is that we translated the liturgy thus got in syriac into our own vernacular languages with quite poetic beauty thanks to church poet the late . C.P.Chandi sir. It is worth mentioning that by the grace of God, my guru Rev.M.P.George has notated and harmonised our liturgical songs for the posterity.

        4. We -Indian Orthodox Church-still remember the patriarcate of Antioch and all our forfathers includng syrians in our regular prayers as a token of our gratitude for their care and guidance for us. This shows our honesty and true christian nature. See how innocent and transparent we are! We are good children of God, we can't help but remember and pray for our forfathers.And we follow the words of St.Paul the apostle(Hebrew 13:7).

        5.Though your 5th question was so immature and childish,my answer to you is that Vattacheril thirumeni showed the termerity to attempt such a revolutionary venture in his capacity as the malankara metrapolitan who was supposed to be the custodian of the properties of Malankara Sabha. He was quite aware his temporal powers vested in his hands being the church head of the Malankara Sabha and it shows his administrative capacity. If St.Dionysius had thirst for power and money,his holiness would have become the first Catholicose of the East instead of opting another bishop. If you had learnt at least the biography of Vattacheril thirumeni, you would not have made such a comment that His holiness was money-hungry. What He did was for the goodness of whole Malankara Church that you will understand later on.

        May God bless you,
        Take care,
        With love and prayers,
        Yours in Christ,
        George achen, Ireland.

        Fr.T.George, St.Gregorios Indian Orthodox Church,

        >T.George achen, Ireland

        >You and your group time and again propagates that 'Catholicate" >established in India in 1912 is attributed to the 'independence' of >Malankara church and 'Catholica is as equal to Pathriyarkeese'. But >if all this things are true and fact full then can you answer to my >following questions;
      • Vinup Vendrapillil
        ... Dear George achen, If Iam not mistake.and may be achen achen dont know about the real history of syrian orthdox chruch I would like to point out some of
        Message 3 of 3 , Apr 14, 2008
          --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Fr. George T. wrote:

          Dear George achen,

          If Iam not mistake.and may be achen achen dont know about the real
          history of syrian orthdox chruch I would like to point out some of
          facts I think this will useful for achan as well as the others who
          doesnt know about this.

          Catholicose post was establihed by the syrian orthdox chruch from
          the begning of chritian era.

          It was around the year 300, an attempt was made for the first time
          to establish the Church in the Persian Empire in an organised form.
          The initiative for this was taken by Bishop Papa (Baba, AD.267-329)
          of the Persian royal capital at Seleucia-Ctesiphon with the consent
          of the Patriarch of Antioch.

          It is believed that the title 'CATHOLICOS' was first used by this
          Bishop Papa. Anyhow, neither this Seleucian bishop nor his
          successors, until 410, never had any authority over other bishoprics
          in Persian empire and hence the title Catholicose, if ever used by
          Bishop Papa, does not mean in the same sense as it was known later.

          MOR ISHAQ (Issac), the bishop of Seleucia becomes the head of the
          Persian Church. He is the one who is acknowledged as the
          first "CATHOLICOS", with jurisdiction over the entire Persian

          And its true that due to introdution of nestorian faith and for a
          short term the catholicate was under nestorians.

          Mor Mana 420 Deposed from the Catholicate because of his Nestorian

          Mor Dadyeshu 421-450

          Mor Babowai 450-484 Martyred by order of Persian King Peroz

          The Catholicate fell into heresy after Mor Babowai

          And again in 559 syrian orthodox were re united under the leader
          ship of Jacob bordano in AD 559 (ie reson for syrian orthdox called
          Jacobites) and the term maphriayoons were estabilsed in AD 629.

          The term `Maphrian' is derived from the Syriac word `afri',
          meaning, "to make fruitful". In the mid 13th century the
          title `Catholicos' was adopted by some occupants of the
          Maphrianate . It is this title that is being used in India today,
          while the title `Maphrian' is no longer used.

          In 1860, Office of the Maphrianate of the East was abolished as per
          the decision of the Universal Synod held under the Patriarch Mor
          Ignatius Ya`qub II at the Deir ez-Za`faran Monastery (Kurkkumo
          Dayro) in Turkey.

          In 1964, the office of the Maphrian was established in India, with
          the title `CATHOLICOS'. This was as per the decision of the Holy
          Episcopal Synod of the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church, held at
          Kottayam, under the venerable presidentship of Mor Ignatius Ya`qub
          III, the Patriarch of Antioch and all the East.

          Mor Baselios Augen I 1964-1975
          Mor Baselios Paulose II 1975-1996
          Mor Baselios Thomas I 2002

          So it is very much clear that its the Partiarch of Anthioc is
          supreme authority the apoint a catholica or to abolish the the post.
          and the term cathoclica is really belong to the Universal syrian
          Orthodox chruch. But in Indian aprat from the syrain orthdox chruch
          the term is used by Malnkkara rethu and Indian orthodox also.

          Vinup Vendrapillil
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