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Re: Are they wrong in reading it as 'My Lord. My Self' ?

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  • Dr.George K John
    Dear Mr. Alex, It is very interesting to read your exhaustive mail related to the holy titles used to address our high priests. We are more inclined to read in
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 31, 2008
      Dear Mr. Alex,

      It is very interesting to read your exhaustive mail related to the holy titles used to address our high priests. We are more inclined to read in between lines than to perceive its broad meanings. In this context I remember a story of Bernard Shaw that is very popular.

      One day while making his evening walk he saw a board in front of a fish shop � FRESH FISH SOLD HERE�. Amusingly he called the shop owner and commented that no one will buy old fish. Owner appreciated the advice and removed the word FRESH. Next day gain Shaw stopped and commented that the smell emits from the shop will tell every one that fish is sold there. Owner removed the word FISH. Ultimately at the end the owner threw the board.

      Our discussions should not remove those holy titles. We use those Syriac titles as a tradition and with utmost respects and not with its literal meanings. If a bishop uses the title Mar or Mor before HG�s Episcopal name we must read it as �Your Lord in Jesus�. As the trinity is ordained on to HG we must call HG �Your Lord� whilst HG uses �Your Lord in Jesus�.

      Let us not use our human intelligence to correct the usages instructed by the holy church. Equating those titles with worldly titles like Mr. Dr. Mrs. Professor etc is indeed suicidal.

      If my words are inapt please forgive.

      Dr.George K John
      ID 0209
    • Abraham Kurian
      Dear Alex, Here s my understanding of the usage. I do not have any validated sources on what I am going to write, but this is how I have come up with a
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 31, 2008
        Dear Alex,

        Here's my understanding of the usage. I do not have any validated sources on what I am going to write, but this is how I have come up with a rational explanation.

        At the time of consecration as a Metropolitan, the individual is given the name of a Saint as an addendum to their baptismal names.

        Taking the example of LL Mor Clemis Abraham. Abraham was his baptismal name and the name of the Saint bestowed on him during the consecration was Mor Clemis.

        Now the Mor in this case is actually referring to St Clement of Rome or Mor Clemis. Please do note that Mor is also equivalent in usage to St in English and Morth is used for a Female Saint.

        Now the name of the Metropolitan can be written as
        1. Mor Clemis Abraham or
        2. Abraham Mor Clemis

        as you see in various publications

        In both cases the Mor is attached to the name of the Saint (Here St Clement) and not to the individuals baptismal name (Abraham in this case).

        This is the usage pattern I have seen in cases of our SOC Metropolitans both in India and Outside.

        You have rightly pointed out the usage of Mar by the Syro Malabar Church. I think they are considering it like Rt. Rev, Monsignor etc. Note that they do not have names of saints given at times of consecration. So there is really is no point in comparison with them.

        Regarding the usage of Aboon and Moran, as Divannasios thirumeni has already pointed out we use Moran only for HH Patriarch, the representative of our Lord Jesus Christ.

        Aboon can be used for all Metropolitans, note the references in the 1st thubden in the Holy Qurbana or in hymns like "To Ba'shlom ..." My understanding of the usage of Moran Mor and Aboon Mor is as follows.

        Taking the earlier example . Aboon refers to Metropolitan Abraham Mor Clemis who is our spiritual father, but the Mor refers to Mor Clemis. So when we say Aboon Mor Clemis Abraham, we are saying "Our father St Clemis Abraham" here the Saint is not for the individual but the saint whose name was given at consecration and the 'Our father' is for the individual.

        In case of our Patriarch Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka I, The Mor refers to St Ignatius Noorono and the Moran refers to Our Spiritual Lord the
        current Patriarch.

        In short there probably is some misunderstanding on why and what is the proper way, but I would not really attribute it to any wrong intentions.

        As you have said, uniformity in this aspect is welcome.

        Hope this helps

        Prayers and regards
        Abraham Kurian
        Member id 1011


        --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Alex Thomas wrote:
        >
        > Dear all,
        >
        > I am glad to find authoritative responses to my query on ' Meaning
        > of Moran Mor, Aboon Mor, and Mor' and grateful to Mor Deevannasios
        > Thirumeni for being kind enough to respond to the query.
        >
        > From the responses till today, I think one can comprehend the
        > meaning of 'Moran Mor' as 'Our Lord and My Lord' and 'Aboon Mor'
        > as ' Our Father and My Lord'. The meaning of Mor is well explained
        > but I couldn't find any specific reply about the usage of this title
        > as I sought in the latter part of my query. Any way as the Thirumeni
      • Shinu Jesus Abraham
        http://www.travelblog.org/Asia/India/Kerala/Pathanamthitta/blog-247802.html Shinu Jesus Abraham Member ID # 2908
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 1, 2008
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