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Pope of India..!! or Pope of Kottayam ???

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  • T M Chacko
    What late Pope John Paul II called the then IOC Catholicose Mathews II bava during the formers Kottayam reception was as POPE OF KOTTAYAM and not as POPE OF
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 23, 2007
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      What late Pope John Paul II called the then IOC Catholicose Mathews II bava during the formers Kottayam reception was as POPE OF KOTTAYAM and not as POPE OF INDIA as Fr. George has said. It was a great talk of the time and so everyone knows about it.

      Also it is very disheartening to hear the comment from respected Father George of Ireland that the Jacobite Syrian Christians were forced to remember the name of the Holy father St. Gregorios Chathuruthil (Parumala Thirumeni) under certain compulsions from his Church. Please understand that the Syrian Church in the past and present always considered the rememberance of the name in tubden as a greater recognition than the declaration as Saint. Thus in 1987, the Jacobites started to remember the names of Patriarch Mor Elias III, Mafrian Yeldho Mor Baselios Bava and Mor Gregorios of Malankara in the 5th tubden. And this was the first additions done by the Church after many many centuries. It was only after 13 years, in 2000, that IOC followed the footsteps of the Syrian Patriarch to remember the names of the later two in their 5th tubden. Inspite of all these facts, in my opinion, who followed who is an unnessary arguement. So it will be better if we understand that it is the recoginition given to same persons by both the quarelling sections is the greater thing than the discussion like who followed who and who is the first etc..

      Now if we go by the same arguements as Fr. George said, then it would be good if he relaize the fact it was only a decade after the Jacobite Syrian Church started to remember the name of St. Thomas, the Apostle to India, in the 4th tubden in 1987, that IOC started to remember the Apostle's name in their tubden (ie; in 2000). So in this case can we say that IOC was actually constrained to accept the decision and the declaration of the synod of Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church. So also will it be fair for me to argue for arguement that IOC were actually under pressure to admit that what the synod of the Syrian Orthodox church in India decided was in tandem with the decision of God the omniscient and so they followed our Church's decesion etc.. In real terms, these are all irrelevant things to argue on a public or even private platforms.

      It would be better if we all stop such unnessary arguements and speak about Love in God. Then only, all will be ready to accept others as brothers and sisters, paving a way for a long standing peace. Certainly then St. Gregorios Chathuruthil Bava who is in heaven with our Lord, will also be happy of us.

      T M Chacko,
      Kottayam.
      # 0903

      --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Fr. T. George wrote:
      >
      > Dear Mr.Saju Paulose,
      >
      >
      > My dear brother,please take note that it was the Holy Synod of the Malankara Orthodox Church(The National Church of India)who canonised St. Gregorios of Parumala(Chathuruthiyil thirumeni) as a Saint. It was in 1947. Later on in 80's, that means, after many years of this historic declaration, the Syrian Orthodox church in Antioch was constrained to accept the decision and the declaration of the synod of Malankara Orthodox Church. They were forced to admit that what the synod of the Malankara Orthodox church in India decided was in tandem with the decision of God the omniscient.
    • Fr.T George
      Dear Mr. Chacko, Please try to understand the fact that we-the Malankara Orthodox Church in India- remember St. Thomas- our patron saint- in our Holy Qurbana
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 24, 2007
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        Dear Mr. Chacko,

        Please try to understand the fact that we-the Malankara Orthodox Church in India- remember St. Thomas- our patron saint- in our Holy Qurbana from time immemorial. From 1665 onwards, we have no delicacy in maintaining spiritual relationship with the Syrian Orthodox Church in Antioch. We do not differ in matters of faith and liturgy with them. But we differ only in matters of administration. And we owe much to our syrian forefathers for the beautiful liturgy that we have. We still remember them all in our worship without fail . We have not yet adulterated the liturgy or any tradition of the Holy Church. It is we who maintain the traditions of the church in its true sense. You people have gone wrong in many matters especially with regard to observance of Lent, acceptance of the Roman doctrine of immaculate conception of St.Mary ,the petrine primacy so on so forth.....

        Please bear in mind the fact that both you and I are spiritually One in Christ,we are Orthodox in faith and traditions,we are Indians in culture. If you are sincere in having Peace, please pray and stand for the Spiritual Unity at least. Let us love each other.

        With prayers,
        Yours in Christ,
        Fr.T George, Ireland
      • Abraham Kurian
        Dear Fr George, I am afraid you are making a rather serious allegation of us accepting the Dogma of Immaculate Conception, I am personally not aware of the
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 25, 2007
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          Dear Fr George,

          I am afraid you are making a rather serious allegation of us accepting the Dogma of Immaculate Conception, I am personally not aware of the SOC/JSC subscribing to this Dogma at any point in time. Can you please provide proof of the same. As far as I know, this Dogma of Amalolbhavam (ulbhavam without sin) is still only a Catholic idea.

          And I am sorry I have to point out that you have contradicted your own words by blaming our church as having gone wrong in so many ways. and still you say we are one in Christ. If you feel we have wrong teachings on serious matters of faith, then we should be heretics in your sight. There are no two ways about this. You cannot be saying prayers cursing the 'Pashandopadeshakkar' and trying for peace with them at the same time.

          In one of your earlier postings you claimed Divine approval for one of your synod decision and now you claim that the 'true'ness of traditions is maintained in your church. Both these comments smack of pride. The point is not whether it is justified or not, you probably feel it is and I am certain it is not.

          Such pride will get us nowhere if you are sincere about love and spiritual unity. Let us try and display our love to the suffering faithful of the closed churches and the people thrown out of churches where their forefathers worshipped since time immemorial. Let us resolve not to grab churches that do not belong to us, and let us not encourage individuals who want to do that. Then and only then will we be worthy to even consider peace or unity amongst us.

          Prayers and regards,
          Abraham Kurian
          ID 1011
        • Jinesh John
          -Dear Fr, If u are really wishing the so called Spiritual Unity,first try to accept the fact that Malankara Orthodox church is an integral part of the
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 25, 2007
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            -Dear Fr,

            If u are really wishing the so called "Spiritual " Unity,first try to accept the fact that Malankara Orthodox church is an integral part of the Syrian orthodox Church.Fr,You told that you people remember the Great Syrian Fathers,yes You repeat in every qurbana in the first Thubden the name of patriarch Ignatius. why??Is it because you accept the patriarch as the Official Leader of the church.then why all these problems??

            then regarding your statement about remembering the patron Saint,;it is you only pointed out the cannonization of Parumala Thirumeni and the kalpanas for that.Then answer the question logically itself. why the name of St.Thomas was not included in the thubdhen till these days.

            Dear Father,it is not possible to inculcate the spirit of unity
            unless the prejudiced thoughts are shed off.

            Regarding the practising of Lent :.Lent is a weapon for Man to fight
            against Satan ;donot make it a weapon of Satan to fight against
            man...just by practising 50 days fasting would not make u a Holy
            saint if you don't love your neighbour. By considering the needs of
            the faithful,if some waivering is done, it is not against orthodoxy.Orthodoxy is highlighting true faith. The jews at the time
            of our Lord where also strict followers of commandments,but Jesus
            only teased them of their false faith.

            With Prayers
            JINESH JOHN
            # 4003

            -- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Fr.T George wrote:
            >
            > Dear Mr. Chacko,
            >
            > Please try to understand the fact that we-the Malankara Orthodox
            >Church in India- remember St. Thomas- our patron saint- in our Holy
            >
            have. We still remember them all in our worship without fail . We
            have not yet adulterated the liturgy or any tradition of the Holy
            Church. It is we who maintain the traditions of the church in its
            true sense. You people have gone wrong in many matters especially
            with regard to observance of Lent, acceptance of the Roman doctrine
            of immaculate conception of St.Mary ,the petrine primacy so on so
            forth.....
            >
          • Lijo Mathew
            Dear Fr. george If you want, Call Pope of kottayam or pope of devalokam, we don t care and after all it is a matter out of our way. but dont forget, how the
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 26, 2007
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              Dear Fr. george

              If you want, Call Pope of kottayam or pope of devalokam, we don't care and after all it is a matter out of our way. but dont forget, how the christians in kerala will look into the cheapest act. Sure, nobody will say anything because no one can give comment on this.
              Good Luck.
              Lijo Mathew
              # 3090
            • Fr.T.George
              Dear Abraham Kurien, My statement that We are one in Christ has been based on Chrstian love. Could you negate this fact? How would you justify the stance
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 27, 2007
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                Dear Abraham Kurien,

                My statement that " We are one in Christ" has been based on Chrstian love. Could you negate this fact? How would you justify the stance taken by jacobite church in having intercommunion with the Roman catholic church which upholds the doctrine of Immaculate conception of St.Mary? The intercommunion means one church and one faith. The over emphasis given to the veneration of St.Mary than what we ought to have to Christ, in the Syrian jacobite church is something indicative that you are in the same line of Latin catholic piety. I am afraid whether the syrian orthodox theologians support the special custom of Nada thurakkal, fasting after Holy Qurbana during the 8 days lent etc in the Manarcadu church or not. Of course, I have great respect towards St. Mary and Manarcadu pally. The usage of 'Nanma niranja mathave.... instead of 'Kripa niranja mathave' in some of the prayer books vogue in jacobite church and also the inclusion of a song with the term ' Amalolbhava mathave' used in a recently released video album in connection with Manarcadu church 8days Lent, all point to this fact. Perhaps, it may not be official?!!! But I have the evidence with me. Anyway, I infer that you people are also heading towards Rome as all roads lead to Rome. Correct me if I am wrong.

                With prayers,
                Fr.T.George, Ireland
                ================================================

                From the desk of moderators.

                The Syriac orthodox Church does not have any inter communion with Roman Catholic Church, rather it is only a pastoral care, in situations which now-a-days are frequent both because of the dispersion of our faithful throughout the world and because of the precarious conditions of these difficult times. Same type of agreements exists in other OO churches such as Armenian OC vs RC & Coptic OC vs Greek OC and as you may be aware, MOC is also discussing this possibility with Roman Church. However, the agreement is misinterpreted and spreads by the rivals of the Holy Syriac Church. The agreement wordings are as follows.

                9.Our identity in faith, though not yet complete, entitles us to envisage collaboration between our Churches in pastoral care, in situations which nowadays are frequent both because of the dispersion of our faithful throughout the world and because of the precarious conditions of these difficult times. It is not rare, in fact, for our faithful to find access to a priest of their own Church materially or morally impossible. Anxious to meet their needs and with their spiritual benefit in mind, we authorize them in such cases to ask for the Sacraments of Penance, Eucharist and Anointing of the Sick from lawful priests of either of our two sister Churches, when they need them. It would be a logical corollary of collaboration in pastoral care to cooperate in priestly formation and theological education. Bishops are encouraged to promote sharing of facilities for theological education where they judge it to be advisable. While doing this we do not forget that we must still do all in our power to achieve the full visible communion between the Catholic Church and the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch and ceaselessly implore our Lord to grant us that unity which alone will enable us to give to the world a fully unanimous Gospel witness.

                For more details, please visit http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/rc.html
              • Fr.T.George
                Dear Moderator, Thanks for your explanation. Dr.D.Babu Paul(Bar eetho!) once told me that while he was a regular communicant of the St.Peter s Jacobite
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 28, 2007
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                  Dear Moderator,

                  Thanks for your explanation. Dr.D.Babu Paul(Bar eetho!) once told me that while he was a regular communicant of the St.Peter's Jacobite syrian Orthodox church,Punnan road,Trivandrum on every sunday morning, he used to be a regular communicant of the Roman Catholic church at Palayam,Trivandrum as well in the very same evening. How would you justify this based on your explantion?

                  Yours in Orthodox faith,
                  Fr.T.George
                  Ireland
                • Mathew G M
                  I have a friend who is Indian Orthodox, I wont name him, who attend Holy Qurbana at an Indian Orthodox Church and also made a pilgrimage to Sabrimala. Does
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 29, 2007
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                    I have a friend who is Indian Orthodox, I wont name him, who attend
                    Holy Qurbana at an Indian Orthodox Church and also made a pilgrimage
                    to Sabrimala. Does this prove that Indian Orthodox Church is in
                    communion with the Hindu Religion ?

                    Your argument that SOC is in full communion with the RC based on the
                    actions of one of the members of SOC, sounds just as ridiculous as
                    the above argument.

                    In Christ,
                    Mathew G M
                    0929

                    --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Fr.T.George wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Moderator,
                    >
                    > Thanks for your explanation. Dr.D.Babu Paul(Bar eetho!) once told
                    me that while he was a regular communicant of the St.Peter's
                    Jacobite syrian Orthodox church,Punnan road,Trivandrum on every
                    sunday morning, he used to be a regular communicant of the Roman
                    Catholic church at Palayam,Trivandrum as well in the very same
                    evening. How would you justify this based on your explantion?
                    >
                    > Yours in Orthodox faith,
                    > Fr.T.George
                    > Ireland
                    >
                  • Mathew G M
                    Dear Fr George, You are accussing the SOC of leaning more towards Rome. From my understanding it is not an Orthodox tradition to use three dimensional statues
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 5, 2007
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                      Dear Fr George,

                      You are accussing the SOC of leaning more towards Rome.

                      From my understanding it is not an Orthodox tradition to use three
                      dimensional statues of saints in churches. We only use icons.

                      If you click on the following link you can see a photo of Mar
                      Osthathios a very senior bishop in the IOC installing a statue of St. Mary in Niranam church. I haven't been to Niranam church recently and dont know if that statue is still there.

                      http://tinyurl.com/yo3mdm

                      So does this prove that the Indian Orthodox Church is now accepting
                      the Latin tradition of installing concrete statues of saints in
                      churches? I don't think so.

                      So please dont take an isolated incident of a song released in a
                      cassette at Manarcadu and extrapolate and say the Holy Syriac
                      Orthodox Church is going to end up a rite of the Roman Catholic
                      Church.

                      However if we can resolve all the christological controversies and
                      have a union of Western (Roman), Eastern (Greek) and Oriental
                      Orthodox Churches to have One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church;
                      isnt it a good thing ?

                      In Christ,
                      Mathew G M

                      --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Fr.T.George wrote:
                      How would you justify the stance taken by jacobite church in having
                      intercommunion with the Roman catholic church which upholds the
                      doctrine of Immaculate conception of St.Mary? The intercommunion
                      means one church and one faith. The over emphasis given to the
                      veneration of St.Mary than what we ought to have to Christ, in the
                      Syrian jacobite church is something indicative that you are in the
                    • Lijo Mathew
                      Dear Fr. George Is there any new comment about the ordination of someone which was conducted by IOC bishops.Dear respected fr., is there any proper stand for
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 7, 2007
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                        Dear Fr. George

                        Is there any new comment about the ordination of someone which was conducted by IOC bishops.Dear respected fr., is there any proper stand for IOC leadership or just like that, any one can ordinate anybody at any time. Why "pope of kottayam" not making any comment on the matter. What will be the stand of new bishop. Do he will be under Devalokam? We feel sympathy to your leadership in this matter. Dont forget one thing, Your church is carrying three guys who cheated us. They will follow the same if they get better chances.

                        My god help ...........

                        Lijo Mathew
                        ID 3090
                      • Babu David
                        Dear Lijo Now they are three plus four.Most recenty they will ordain either a Catholicose & a Patriarch in India or in Europe. Regards Babu David #3269
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 10, 2007
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                          Dear Lijo

                          Now they are three plus four.Most recenty they will ordain either a Catholicose & a Patriarch in India or in Europe.

                          Regards
                          Babu David
                          #3269
                        • Lijo Mathew
                          Dear Babu, This ordination just proved that they are not following the 1934 constitution, because it requires at least three motropolitans for such a function.
                          Message 12 of 12 , Dec 12, 2007
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                            Dear Babu,

                            This ordination just proved that they are not following the 1934 constitution, because it requires at least three motropolitans for such a function. Actually I am surprised, because the third one Nicolause was not present in the place. May be he is still sitting on the wall thinking that which side he has to jump.

                            Lijo Mathew
                            3090
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