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RE: [S-R] Digest Number 1466

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  • Janet Kozlay
    Yes, Vladimir, but we re talking about noble families here. What about them? Why would they have migrated south? Janet ... From: Vladimir Bohinc
    Message 1 of 14 , May 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Yes, Vladimir, but we're talking about noble families here. What about
      them? Why would they have migrated south?

      Janet


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
      Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 3:30 PM
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466

      Dear Janet,
      After the Turks were defeated, life for peasants in Slovakia (territory) was
      very very hard, so many left South, to settle on flat land, which was
      devastated by the retreating Turks and left practically without people.
      Vladimir

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Janet Kozlay
      To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 9:03 PM
      Subject: RE: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


      Frank, I find your comment about Lutheran Slovaks quite interesting. I
      know
      that there was a considerable pocket of Lutherans in the northern part of
      Old Hungary, now Slovakia, and in fact they are still a significant
      minority
      in that region. Is there some reason that Lutheran Slovaks would have
      moved
      to Serbia? Why, for that matter, was there a migration from Slovakia to
      Serbia at all? (Trying to understand the history.)

      Janet





      To unsubscribe from this group, go to
      http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
      SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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    • Frank
      ... WWW. How much is true and how much is Serbian propaganda. Didn t write it just read it. Expected perhaps a Potemkin village like elaborate fake village
      Message 2 of 14 , May 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@n...>
        wrote:
        > Dear Frank,
        > Now I have to say this word again;
        > I was there for two days and met many people. They all speak slovak
        among themselves. They feel very much slovak.
        > Since when a surname tells a religion?
        > The main church there , which is pretty large is lutheran and I was
        studying lutheran church records and even met the lutheran
        bishop.
        > The RC church is very small.
        > Besides that, there is also a religious sect called Nazareni, which
        might be similar to the Amish. They have no church books,
        which
        made me some trouble.
        > The book is written in Slovak ISBN 973-9292-49-6, compiled by
        Dr.Michael Dudok " Priezviska Slovakov v Juhoslavii"
        > I know
        > Serbian,
        > Croatian,
        > Slovenian,
        > Slovak,
        > English
        > German
        > Russian
        > Polish
        > some French
        > some Italian
        > some Spanish
        > A Slovenian never expects a foreigner to understand slovenian, so
        we just automatically switch to a foreign language when we have
        to do with one. English speaking people are not aware of this luxury
        they enjoy. They just hope, everybody will understand them, so
        there are very few, who care to learn a foreign language.
        > Kako ste is not realy very slovenian. Kako se imate?
        > Some of you have expressed interest in obtaining a status of
        expatriate Slovak. I can tell you, Slovaks in Backi Petrovac are
        doing
        this en masse. I was wittnessing many people, who on one side brought
        their applications to the office of Matica Slovenska, which is
        helping them in this affair, and then on the other side in the parish
        office, where some of them had to find their GGparents, which was
        needed for this application.
        > Regards,
        > Vladimir

        Dear Vladimir,

        That is a fantastic language knowledge !
        Yes. And a Czech would say Jak se máte ?
        Found imati in my Croatian dictionary and I now see Kako se imate ?
        listed under iméti in the Slovene dictionary.
        Still have conflict in what I have read about Slovaks in Bac^ki Petrovac on=
        WWW.
        How much is true and how much is Serbian propaganda.
        Didn't write it just read it.
        Expected perhaps a Potemkin village like elaborate fake village
        constructed for Catherine the Great's tour of the Ukraine.
        NATO and US bombed Serbia back in 1999.

        PRO
        (transliterated) from both Slovak and Serbian languages

        "Petrovac had first appeared in the 13th century when Petrovac is
        mentioned as a church parish belonging to Backa Zupanija. Later that
        name is changed into Petrovac.
        Its first inhabitants were the Hungarians and Serbs. In the first half
        of the 18th century (1745) the Slovaks settle here. Since then
        Petrovac developed so that it represents cultural, economic, and
        political
        center of the Slovaks in these parts.
        According to listing in 1992 year in B.P. live 7229 inhabitants,
        out of which 88% are the Slovaks, then 4% the Serbs, the remaining 8%
        are other nationalities. (before end of the war between the Serbs and the C=
        roats)
        Agriculture is the most important economic activity based on the
        production of field crops (wheat, corn, broom weed, sugar beet, hop),
        cattle, breeding and poulty and vegetable crops. Besides agriculture
        there is also some industry manufacture, metal and chemical.
        Manufacture of wood civil engineering, printing activities, etc."

        According to church records, there are approximately 50,000 Lutherans
        in the Slovak Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in
        Serbia.
        About 76 percent of the ethnic Slovaks living in Vojvodina are
        Lutherans.
        Lutheranism was brought into this area by Slovak and German settlers
        in the first half of the 18th century, who were fleeing from the
        counter-reformation movement in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
        They had guaranteed religious freedom in Vojvodina, which was freshly
        liberated from the Turks and mostly unpopulated at that time.
        The church is among the main reasons for preservation of Slovak
        national identity in Vojvodina for more than 250 years.

        CON

        Vojvodinian Slovaks

        Moreover, the offspring of ethnically mixed marriages in some
        predominantly Slovak settlements (e.g. Bac^ki Petrovac) often have
        not demonstrated a particular interest in being taught in the Slovak
        language.
        As a matter of fact, the Slovak-language grammar school in Bac^ki
        Petrovac and in Kovacica currently suffer both from a lack of
        adequate teaching staff and from a shortage in pupils interested in
        taking
        classes in the Slovak
        language. What is even more notable is that at the gymnasium of Stara
        Pazova (i.e. an area where over 7,000 ethnic Slovaks live) most
        subjects are taught in Serbian.
        On the other hand, there exist certain problems with the training of
        Slovak-language teachers, especially at the level of elementary
        education.
        In Vojvodina, the task of training elementary-level teachers is
        assigned to the Faculty for Elementary Teaching in Bac^ki Petrovac
        (i.e. an outpost of the Sombor-based Faculty for Elementary School
        Teachers).
        However, according to an opinion poll conducted in Vojvodina's
        predominantly Slovak localities, most locals do not regard this
        training as particularly useful, since the teaching-staff is larger
        n number than already required and most lectures, except some
        practice classes organized in Slovak, are held in Serbian.
        Due to financial problems persist. The library of the Department for
        Slovak Language and Literature at the University of Novi Sad, for
        instance, has hardly acquired any new reading material over the
        past ten years.

        Roman Catholics are usually in Croatia and Slovenija.
        The primary faith in Serbia is Orthodox Christian, with 65 percent,
        followed by Muslim (19 percent), Roman Catholic (4 percent),
        Protestant (1 percent), and other (11 percent).

        My conclusion was that if a surname researcher asked for surnames
        listed which must be census related in your book they would only be listed=

        if surnames practiced Lutheran religion.
        Most surname bearers from Slovakia were R.C. and a few were G.C.
        religion.
        Today, Slovakia is 60 % R.C., 10 % atheist, 8 % Protestant , 4 %
        Orthodox and 18 % other.
        Before WW I the R.C. percentage was much higher.

        Regards

        Frank K

        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Frank
        > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 8:25 PM
        > Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466
        >
        >
        > ahoj List
        >
        > Just downloaded [S-R] Digest number 1466 to my printer and ran out
        > of fpaper.
        > 20 messages and 59 pages long !.
        > Is there an invisible chain letter running ?
        > Mainly Yahoo! Group Links and an antivirus program from ISP
        > www.eset.sk.
        > repeat repeat .............
        >
        > I had meant to ask Vladimir B in what language his book of
        surnames
        > from Bac^ka Petrovac was written.
        > Slovak or Serbian ?
        > Does Vladimir also know Serbian ?
        >
        > Ako sa más^ ? Slovak
        >
        > Jak se máte ? Czech
        >
        > Kako ste ? Croatian/Slovene (Roman)
        >
        > K A K O C T E ? Serbian/Bulgarian (Cyrillic)
        > (k ah k o s t eh)
        >
        > Vojvodinian Slovaks
        >
        > The offspring of ethnically mixed marriages in some predominantly
        > Slovak settlements (e.g. Bac^ki Petrovac) often have not
        demonstrated
        > a particular interest in being taught in the Slovak language.
        > As a matter of fact, the Slovak-language grammar school in Bac^ki
        > Petrovac and in Kovacica currently suffer both from a lack of
        adequate
        > teaching staff and from a shortage in pupils interested in taking
        > classes in the Slovak language.
        > What is even more notable is that at the gymnasium of Stara
        > Pazova (i.e. an area where over 7,000 ethnic Slovaks live) most
        > subjects are taught in Serbian.
        > On the other hand, there exist certain problems with the training
        of
        > Slovak-language teachers, especially at the level of elementary
        education.=
        >
        > In Vojvodina, the task of training elementary-level teachers is
        > assigned to the Faculty for Elementary Teaching in Bac^ki
        Petrovac (i.e. a=
        > n
        > outpost of the Sombor-based Faculty for Elementary School
        Teachers).
        > However, according to an opinion poll conducted in Vojvodina's
        > predominantly Slovak localities, most locals do not regard this
        training as=
        >
        > particularly useful, since the teaching-staff is larger in number
        than alre=
        > ady
        > required and most lectures, except some practice classes
        organized in
        > Slovak, are held in Serbian.
        > Due to financial problems persist. The library of the Department
        for
        > SlovakLanguage and Literature at the University of Novi Sad, for
        > instance, has hardly acquired any new reading material over the
        past
        > ten years.
        >
        >
        > Further if your surnames were Lutheran religion I don't expect
        they
        > are listed in this book of surnames.
        >
        > According to church records, there are approximately 50,000
        Lutherans
        > in the Slovak Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in
        Serbia.
        > About 76 percent of the ethnic Slovaks living in Vojvodina are
        Lutherans.
        >
        > http://jankolar.tripod.com/bp.htm
        >
        > Frank K
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://w
        ww.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
        SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
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        >
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        >
        >
        >
        > __________ Informacia od NOD32 1.722 (20040419) __________
        >
        > Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
        > http://www.eset.sk
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Vladimir Bohinc
        Dear Janet, There were many levels of Nobility. Some Nobles ended up as beggars too. I have seen that in the records by myself. You can safely assume, that
        Message 3 of 14 , May 2, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Janet,
          There were many levels of Nobility. Some Nobles ended up as beggars too. I have seen that in the records by myself.
          You can safely assume, that they were migrating South for economic reasons.
          It is almost certain, that up in Slovakia, they did not have any large Estate, which would maybe hold them there. They were only descendants of a distant Nobleman and subject to economic influence as anybody else.
          Vladimir


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Janet Kozlay
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 11:48 PM
          Subject: RE: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


          Yes, Vladimir, but we're talking about noble families here. What about
          them? Why would they have migrated south?

          Janet


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
          Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 3:30 PM
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466

          Dear Janet,
          After the Turks were defeated, life for peasants in Slovakia (territory) was
          very very hard, so many left South, to settle on flat land, which was
          devastated by the retreating Turks and left practically without people.
          Vladimir

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Janet Kozlay
          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 9:03 PM
          Subject: RE: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


          Frank, I find your comment about Lutheran Slovaks quite interesting. I
          know
          that there was a considerable pocket of Lutherans in the northern part of
          Old Hungary, now Slovakia, and in fact they are still a significant
          minority
          in that region. Is there some reason that Lutheran Slovaks would have
          moved
          to Serbia? Why, for that matter, was there a migration from Slovakia to
          Serbia at all? (Trying to understand the history.)

          Janet





          To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/

          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




          __________ Informacia od NOD32 1.722 (20040419) __________

          Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
          http://www.eset.sk


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
          SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          Yahoo! Groups Links









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          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          ADVERTISEMENT





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          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



          __________ Informacia od NOD32 1.722 (20040419) __________

          Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
          http://www.eset.sk


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Vladimir Bohinc
          Dear Frank, You have some good dictionnaries. But you see, a machine can not always find the right word for certain situation. Re pros and cons; in general,
          Message 4 of 14 , May 2, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Frank,
            You have some good dictionnaries. But you see, a machine can not always find the right word for certain situation.
            Re pros and cons;
            in general, every nation here tries to prove, that members of their ethnicity were there first. This is a material for ethernal disputes, because some things can not be proven.
            Does not make much sense to get involved.
            Fact is what I wrote about the Slovaks in BP before. Maybe in 200 years, there will be no more.
            Vladimir

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Frank
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 2:52 AM
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


            --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@n...>
            wrote:
            > Dear Frank,
            > Now I have to say this word again;
            > I was there for two days and met many people. They all speak slovak
            among themselves. They feel very much slovak.
            > Since when a surname tells a religion?
            > The main church there , which is pretty large is lutheran and I was
            studying lutheran church records and even met the lutheran
            bishop.
            > The RC church is very small.
            > Besides that, there is also a religious sect called Nazareni, which
            might be similar to the Amish. They have no church books,
            which
            made me some trouble.
            > The book is written in Slovak ISBN 973-9292-49-6, compiled by
            Dr.Michael Dudok " Priezviska Slovakov v Juhoslavii"
            > I know
            > Serbian,
            > Croatian,
            > Slovenian,
            > Slovak,
            > English
            > German
            > Russian
            > Polish
            > some French
            > some Italian
            > some Spanish
            > A Slovenian never expects a foreigner to understand slovenian, so
            we just automatically switch to a foreign language when we have
            to do with one. English speaking people are not aware of this luxury
            they enjoy. They just hope, everybody will understand them, so
            there are very few, who care to learn a foreign language.
            > Kako ste is not realy very slovenian. Kako se imate?
            > Some of you have expressed interest in obtaining a status of
            expatriate Slovak. I can tell you, Slovaks in Backi Petrovac are
            doing
            this en masse. I was wittnessing many people, who on one side brought
            their applications to the office of Matica Slovenska, which is
            helping them in this affair, and then on the other side in the parish
            office, where some of them had to find their GGparents, which was
            needed for this application.
            > Regards,
            > Vladimir

            Dear Vladimir,

            That is a fantastic language knowledge !
            Yes. And a Czech would say Jak se máte ?
            Found imati in my Croatian dictionary and I now see Kako se imate ?
            listed under iméti in the Slovene dictionary.
            Still have conflict in what I have read about Slovaks in Bac^ki Petrovac on=
            WWW.
            How much is true and how much is Serbian propaganda.
            Didn't write it just read it.
            Expected perhaps a Potemkin village like elaborate fake village
            constructed for Catherine the Great's tour of the Ukraine.
            NATO and US bombed Serbia back in 1999.

            PRO
            (transliterated) from both Slovak and Serbian languages

            "Petrovac had first appeared in the 13th century when Petrovac is
            mentioned as a church parish belonging to Backa Zupanija. Later that
            name is changed into Petrovac.
            Its first inhabitants were the Hungarians and Serbs. In the first half
            of the 18th century (1745) the Slovaks settle here. Since then
            Petrovac developed so that it represents cultural, economic, and
            political
            center of the Slovaks in these parts.
            According to listing in 1992 year in B.P. live 7229 inhabitants,
            out of which 88% are the Slovaks, then 4% the Serbs, the remaining 8%
            are other nationalities. (before end of the war between the Serbs and the C=
            roats)
            Agriculture is the most important economic activity based on the
            production of field crops (wheat, corn, broom weed, sugar beet, hop),
            cattle, breeding and poulty and vegetable crops. Besides agriculture
            there is also some industry manufacture, metal and chemical.
            Manufacture of wood civil engineering, printing activities, etc."

            According to church records, there are approximately 50,000 Lutherans
            in the Slovak Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in
            Serbia.
            About 76 percent of the ethnic Slovaks living in Vojvodina are
            Lutherans.
            Lutheranism was brought into this area by Slovak and German settlers
            in the first half of the 18th century, who were fleeing from the
            counter-reformation movement in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
            They had guaranteed religious freedom in Vojvodina, which was freshly
            liberated from the Turks and mostly unpopulated at that time.
            The church is among the main reasons for preservation of Slovak
            national identity in Vojvodina for more than 250 years.

            CON

            Vojvodinian Slovaks

            Moreover, the offspring of ethnically mixed marriages in some
            predominantly Slovak settlements (e.g. Bac^ki Petrovac) often have
            not demonstrated a particular interest in being taught in the Slovak
            language.
            As a matter of fact, the Slovak-language grammar school in Bac^ki
            Petrovac and in Kovacica currently suffer both from a lack of
            adequate teaching staff and from a shortage in pupils interested in
            taking
            classes in the Slovak
            language. What is even more notable is that at the gymnasium of Stara
            Pazova (i.e. an area where over 7,000 ethnic Slovaks live) most
            subjects are taught in Serbian.
            On the other hand, there exist certain problems with the training of
            Slovak-language teachers, especially at the level of elementary
            education.
            In Vojvodina, the task of training elementary-level teachers is
            assigned to the Faculty for Elementary Teaching in Bac^ki Petrovac
            (i.e. an outpost of the Sombor-based Faculty for Elementary School
            Teachers).
            However, according to an opinion poll conducted in Vojvodina's
            predominantly Slovak localities, most locals do not regard this
            training as particularly useful, since the teaching-staff is larger
            n number than already required and most lectures, except some
            practice classes organized in Slovak, are held in Serbian.
            Due to financial problems persist. The library of the Department for
            Slovak Language and Literature at the University of Novi Sad, for
            instance, has hardly acquired any new reading material over the
            past ten years.

            Roman Catholics are usually in Croatia and Slovenija.
            The primary faith in Serbia is Orthodox Christian, with 65 percent,
            followed by Muslim (19 percent), Roman Catholic (4 percent),
            Protestant (1 percent), and other (11 percent).

            My conclusion was that if a surname researcher asked for surnames
            listed which must be census related in your book they would only be listed=

            if surnames practiced Lutheran religion.
            Most surname bearers from Slovakia were R.C. and a few were G.C.
            religion.
            Today, Slovakia is 60 % R.C., 10 % atheist, 8 % Protestant , 4 %
            Orthodox and 18 % other.
            Before WW I the R.C. percentage was much higher.

            Regards

            Frank K

            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Frank
            > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 8:25 PM
            > Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466
            >
            >
            > ahoj List
            >
            > Just downloaded [S-R] Digest number 1466 to my printer and ran out
            > of fpaper.
            > 20 messages and 59 pages long !.
            > Is there an invisible chain letter running ?
            > Mainly Yahoo! Group Links and an antivirus program from ISP
            > www.eset.sk.
            > repeat repeat .............
            >
            > I had meant to ask Vladimir B in what language his book of
            surnames
            > from Bac^ka Petrovac was written.
            > Slovak or Serbian ?
            > Does Vladimir also know Serbian ?
            >
            > Ako sa más^ ? Slovak
            >
            > Jak se máte ? Czech
            >
            > Kako ste ? Croatian/Slovene (Roman)
            >
            > K A K O C T E ? Serbian/Bulgarian (Cyrillic)
            > (k ah k o s t eh)
            >
            > Vojvodinian Slovaks
            >
            > The offspring of ethnically mixed marriages in some predominantly
            > Slovak settlements (e.g. Bac^ki Petrovac) often have not
            demonstrated
            > a particular interest in being taught in the Slovak language.
            > As a matter of fact, the Slovak-language grammar school in Bac^ki
            > Petrovac and in Kovacica currently suffer both from a lack of
            adequate
            > teaching staff and from a shortage in pupils interested in taking
            > classes in the Slovak language.
            > What is even more notable is that at the gymnasium of Stara
            > Pazova (i.e. an area where over 7,000 ethnic Slovaks live) most
            > subjects are taught in Serbian.
            > On the other hand, there exist certain problems with the training
            of
            > Slovak-language teachers, especially at the level of elementary
            education.=
            >
            > In Vojvodina, the task of training elementary-level teachers is
            > assigned to the Faculty for Elementary Teaching in Bac^ki
            Petrovac (i.e. a=
            > n
            > outpost of the Sombor-based Faculty for Elementary School
            Teachers).
            > However, according to an opinion poll conducted in Vojvodina's
            > predominantly Slovak localities, most locals do not regard this
            training as=
            >
            > particularly useful, since the teaching-staff is larger in number
            than alre=
            > ady
            > required and most lectures, except some practice classes
            organized in
            > Slovak, are held in Serbian.
            > Due to financial problems persist. The library of the Department
            for
            > SlovakLanguage and Literature at the University of Novi Sad, for
            > instance, has hardly acquired any new reading material over the
            past
            > ten years.
            >
            >
            > Further if your surnames were Lutheran religion I don't expect
            they
            > are listed in this book of surnames.
            >
            > According to church records, there are approximately 50,000
            Lutherans
            > in the Slovak Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in
            Serbia.
            > About 76 percent of the ethnic Slovaks living in Vojvodina are
            Lutherans.
            >
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          • tarzantu2@aol.com
            In a message dated 5/2/2004 4:05:08 AM Central Daylight Time, konekta@nm.psg.sk writes: You have some good dictionnaries. But you see, a machine can not always
            Message 5 of 14 , May 2, 2004
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              In a message dated 5/2/2004 4:05:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
              konekta@... writes:
              You have some good dictionnaries. But you see, a machine can not always find
              the right word for certain situation
              Vladimir's words are so true. One can have limited success with an
              English/Slovak dictionary, as well as an English/Slovak or Slovak/English machine
              translation site. Machines can get some things right, but just as often get it
              wrong because it does not have the ability to reason, to understand the intent of
              the words to be translated.

              My wife and I retired to deep south Texas, along the Mexican border, and are
              trying to learn Spanish. We have all kinds of dictionaries, translation
              sites, and other learning materials. We are learning that you can translate an
              English word into Spanish, but it isn't necessarily a word that is used in
              Spanish, and of course the Spanish language varies throughout the countries of North
              and South America, as well with countries like Spain, Puerto Rico, etc.

              You need to learn the culture of a country or of its diverse people to learn
              the language. The way things are said in English do not necessarily translate
              into a foreign language and vice versa. But one could make themselves
              understood in instances. For example, in English we say "I'm hungry." In Spanish
              they say "I have hunger." We say "How old are you" and they say "How many
              years do you have." If it's hot out and we say "I'm hot," they say "Tengo calor"
              which means "I have heat," but if you say "estoy caliente" which also
              translates to "I'm hot," however, it's meaning is entirely different. It means "I'm
              hot" as a person, not because of the temperature. As a result, one can mean to
              say one thing but it can turn out to be something entirely different.

              The bottom line is learning the culture, how people speak, plus utilizing all
              available learning tools. Much better understanding and translations will be
              the result.

              Ray



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Vladimir Bohinc
              Dear Ray, When I started learning spanish the first thing my friend warned me about was Tengo calor :-) Thank you, Vladimir ... From: tarzantu2@aol.com To:
              Message 6 of 14 , May 2, 2004
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                Dear Ray,
                When I started learning spanish the first thing my friend warned me about was "Tengo calor" :-)
                Thank you,
                Vladimir

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: tarzantu2@...
                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 7:51 PM
                Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


                In a message dated 5/2/2004 4:05:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
                konekta@... writes:
                You have some good dictionnaries. But you see, a machine can not always find
                the right word for certain situation
                Vladimir's words are so true. One can have limited success with an
                English/Slovak dictionary, as well as an English/Slovak or Slovak/English machine
                translation site. Machines can get some things right, but just as often get it
                wrong because it does not have the ability to reason, to understand the intent of
                the words to be translated.

                My wife and I retired to deep south Texas, along the Mexican border, and are
                trying to learn Spanish. We have all kinds of dictionaries, translation
                sites, and other learning materials. We are learning that you can translate an
                English word into Spanish, but it isn't necessarily a word that is used in
                Spanish, and of course the Spanish language varies throughout the countries of North
                and South America, as well with countries like Spain, Puerto Rico, etc.

                You need to learn the culture of a country or of its diverse people to learn
                the language. The way things are said in English do not necessarily translate
                into a foreign language and vice versa. But one could make themselves
                understood in instances. For example, in English we say "I'm hungry." In Spanish
                they say "I have hunger." We say "How old are you" and they say "How many
                years do you have." If it's hot out and we say "I'm hot," they say "Tengo calor"
                which means "I have heat," but if you say "estoy caliente" which also
                translates to "I'm hot," however, it's meaning is entirely different. It means "I'm
                hot" as a person, not because of the temperature. As a result, one can mean to
                say one thing but it can turn out to be something entirely different.

                The bottom line is learning the culture, how people speak, plus utilizing all
                available learning tools. Much better understanding and translations will be
                the result.

                Ray



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • Janet Kozlay
                Thanks again for your input, Vladimir. I have noted with some surprise that the 19th-century Lutheran church records for Zaturcie, in Turiec, were almost
                Message 7 of 14 , May 2, 2004
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                  Thanks again for your input, Vladimir.

                  I have noted with some surprise that the 19th-century Lutheran church
                  records for Zaturcie, in Turiec, were almost entirely filled with nobles.
                  It made me wonder how a region could support so many noble families--all of
                  whom intermarried at an alarming rate. I wonder if this, too, could be a
                  reason some decided to strike out for newer areas. They were getting just a
                  bit too inbred. On the other hand, my husband's great-great grandfather,
                  after having moved to the Hungarian Plain, went back north around 1825 to
                  marry a girl from the area.

                  Janet


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
                  Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 3:50 AM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466

                  Dear Janet,
                  There were many levels of Nobility. Some Nobles ended up as beggars too. I
                  have seen that in the records by myself.
                  You can safely assume, that they were migrating South for economic reasons.
                  It is almost certain, that up in Slovakia, they did not have any large
                  Estate, which would maybe hold them there. They were only descendants of a
                  distant Nobleman and subject to economic influence as anybody else.
                  Vladimir


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Janet Kozlay
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 11:48 PM
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


                  Yes, Vladimir, but we're talking about noble families here. What about
                  them? Why would they have migrated south?

                  Janet


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
                  Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 3:30 PM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466

                  Dear Janet,
                  After the Turks were defeated, life for peasants in Slovakia (territory)
                  was
                  very very hard, so many left South, to settle on flat land, which was
                  devastated by the retreating Turks and left practically without people.
                  Vladimir

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Janet Kozlay
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 9:03 PM
                  Subject: RE: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


                  Frank, I find your comment about Lutheran Slovaks quite interesting. I
                  know
                  that there was a considerable pocket of Lutherans in the northern part
                  of
                  Old Hungary, now Slovakia, and in fact they are still a significant
                  minority
                  in that region. Is there some reason that Lutheran Slovaks would have
                  moved
                  to Serbia? Why, for that matter, was there a migration from Slovakia to
                  Serbia at all? (Trying to understand the history.)

                  Janet





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