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Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466

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  • Frank
    ahoj ListJust downloaded [S-R] Digest number 1466 to my printer and ran out of fpaper. 20 messages and 59 pages long !. Is there an invisible chain letter
    Message 1 of 14 , May 1, 2004
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      ahoj List

      Just downloaded [S-R] Digest number 1466 to my printer and ran out
      of fpaper.
      20 messages and 59 pages long !.
      Is there an invisible chain letter running ?
      Mainly Yahoo! Group Links and an antivirus program from ISP
      www.eset.sk.
      repeat repeat .............

      I had meant to ask Vladimir B in what language his book of surnames
      from Bac^ka Petrovac was written.
      Slovak or Serbian ?
      Does Vladimir also know Serbian ?

      Ako sa más^ ? Slovak

      Jak se máte ? Czech

      Kako ste ? Croatian/Slovene (Roman)

      K A K O C T E ? Serbian/Bulgarian (Cyrillic)
      (k ah k o s t eh)

      Vojvodinian Slovaks

      The offspring of ethnically mixed marriages in some predominantly
      Slovak settlements (e.g. Bac^ki Petrovac) often have not demonstrated
      a particular interest in being taught in the Slovak language.
      As a matter of fact, the Slovak-language grammar school in Bac^ki
      Petrovac and in Kovacica currently suffer both from a lack of adequate
      teaching staff and from a shortage in pupils interested in taking
      classes in the Slovak language.
      What is even more notable is that at the gymnasium of Stara
      Pazova (i.e. an area where over 7,000 ethnic Slovaks live) most
      subjects are taught in Serbian.
      On the other hand, there exist certain problems with the training of
      Slovak-language teachers, especially at the level of elementary education.=

      In Vojvodina, the task of training elementary-level teachers is
      assigned to the Faculty for Elementary Teaching in Bac^ki Petrovac (i.e. a=
      n
      outpost of the Sombor-based Faculty for Elementary School Teachers).
      However, according to an opinion poll conducted in Vojvodina's
      predominantly Slovak localities, most locals do not regard this training as=

      particularly useful, since the teaching-staff is larger in number than alre=
      ady
      required and most lectures, except some practice classes organized in
      Slovak, are held in Serbian.
      Due to financial problems persist. The library of the Department for
      SlovakLanguage and Literature at the University of Novi Sad, for
      instance, has hardly acquired any new reading material over the past
      ten years.


      Further if your surnames were Lutheran religion I don't expect they
      are listed in this book of surnames.

      According to church records, there are approximately 50,000 Lutherans
      in the Slovak Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Serbia.
      About 76 percent of the ethnic Slovaks living in Vojvodina are Lutherans.

      http://jankolar.tripod.com/bp.htm

      Frank K
    • Janet Kozlay
      Frank, I find your comment about Lutheran Slovaks quite interesting. I know that there was a considerable pocket of Lutherans in the northern part of Old
      Message 2 of 14 , May 1, 2004
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        Frank, I find your comment about Lutheran Slovaks quite interesting. I know
        that there was a considerable pocket of Lutherans in the northern part of
        Old Hungary, now Slovakia, and in fact they are still a significant minority
        in that region. Is there some reason that Lutheran Slovaks would have moved
        to Serbia? Why, for that matter, was there a migration from Slovakia to
        Serbia at all? (Trying to understand the history.)

        Janet
      • William F Brna
        Janet, About the mddle of the 18th century, two brothers who owned land in what is now Serbia went to Orava in northwestern Slovakia and asked for people to
        Message 3 of 14 , May 1, 2004
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          Janet,

          About the mddle of the 18th century, two brothers who owned land in what
          is now Serbia went to Orava in northwestern Slovakia and asked for people
          to settle on this land and build a town. Evidently, conditions were so
          bad in Orava that many people took them up on the offer. They founded a
          town, called Petrovec. Most of these people were originally Catholic but
          they had problems with the authorities who were mostly Orthodox. Rather
          than put up with the difficulties many of them became Lutheran, since
          there were already Lutherans in the area and they were accepted. After
          about a hundred years some of the families returned to Slovakia, but did
          not wish to return to Orava so they settled in central Slovakia in
          Martin, Vrutky and Liptovsky Mikulas. In 1924, the president of
          Czechoslovakia asked Slovaks who were living outside Czechoslovakia to
          return. Again, several of the families did. Pavel Brna returned and
          settled in Miloslavov on the Czechoslovak-Hungarian border. His
          descendants still live there. This information was related to me by Jan
          Brna, one oif Pavel's grandsons who now lives in Canada. I had the
          privilege of accompanying Jan to visit his younger brother, Miloslav and
          his family, in September, 2001.

          The people who went to Petrovec from Orava retained their Slovak
          heritage, language and customs.

          William F. Brna


          On Sat, 1 May 2004 15:03:19 -0400 "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@...>
          writes:
          > Frank, I find your comment about Lutheran Slovaks quite interesting.
          > I know
          > that there was a considerable pocket of Lutherans in the northern
          > part of
          > Old Hungary, now Slovakia, and in fact they are still a significant
          > minority
          > in that region. Is there some reason that Lutheran Slovaks would
          > have moved
          > to Serbia? Why, for that matter, was there a migration from
          > Slovakia to
          > Serbia at all? (Trying to understand the history.)
          >
          > Janet
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank
          > email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Vladimir Bohinc
          Dear Frank, Now I have to say this word again; I was there for two days and met many people. They all speak slovak among themselves. They feel very much
          Message 4 of 14 , May 1, 2004
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            Dear Frank,
            Now I have to say this word again;
            I was there for two days and met many people. They all speak slovak among themselves. They feel very much slovak.
            Since when a surname tells a religion?
            The main church there , which is pretty large is lutheran and I was studying lutheran church records and even met the lutheran bishop.
            The RC church is very small.
            Besides that, there is also a religious sect called Nazareni, which might be similar to the Amish. They have no church books, which made me some trouble.
            The book is written in Slovak ISBN 973-9292-49-6, compiled by Dr.Michael Dudok " Priezviska Slovakov v Juhoslavii"
            I know
            Serbian,
            Croatian,
            Slovenian,
            Slovak,
            English
            German
            Russian
            Polish
            some French
            some Italian
            some Spanish
            A Slovenian never expects a foreigner to understand slovenian, so we just automatically switch to a foreign language when we have to do with one. English speaking people are not aware of this luxury they enjoy. They just hope, everybody will understand them, so there are very few, who care to learn a foreign language.
            Kako ste is not realy very slovenian. Kako se imate?
            Some of you have expressed interest in obtaining a status of expatriate Slovak. I can tell you, Slovaks in Backi Petrovac are doing this en masse. I was wittnessing many people, who on one side brought their applications to the office of Matica Slovenska, which is helping them in this affair, and then on the other side in the parish office, where some of them had to find their GGparents, which was needed for this application.
            Regards,
            Vladimir


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Frank
            To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 8:25 PM
            Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


            ahoj List

            Just downloaded [S-R] Digest number 1466 to my printer and ran out
            of fpaper.
            20 messages and 59 pages long !.
            Is there an invisible chain letter running ?
            Mainly Yahoo! Group Links and an antivirus program from ISP
            www.eset.sk.
            repeat repeat .............

            I had meant to ask Vladimir B in what language his book of surnames
            from Bac^ka Petrovac was written.
            Slovak or Serbian ?
            Does Vladimir also know Serbian ?

            Ako sa más^ ? Slovak

            Jak se máte ? Czech

            Kako ste ? Croatian/Slovene (Roman)

            K A K O C T E ? Serbian/Bulgarian (Cyrillic)
            (k ah k o s t eh)

            Vojvodinian Slovaks

            The offspring of ethnically mixed marriages in some predominantly
            Slovak settlements (e.g. Bac^ki Petrovac) often have not demonstrated
            a particular interest in being taught in the Slovak language.
            As a matter of fact, the Slovak-language grammar school in Bac^ki
            Petrovac and in Kovacica currently suffer both from a lack of adequate
            teaching staff and from a shortage in pupils interested in taking
            classes in the Slovak language.
            What is even more notable is that at the gymnasium of Stara
            Pazova (i.e. an area where over 7,000 ethnic Slovaks live) most
            subjects are taught in Serbian.
            On the other hand, there exist certain problems with the training of
            Slovak-language teachers, especially at the level of elementary education.=

            In Vojvodina, the task of training elementary-level teachers is
            assigned to the Faculty for Elementary Teaching in Bac^ki Petrovac (i.e. a=
            n
            outpost of the Sombor-based Faculty for Elementary School Teachers).
            However, according to an opinion poll conducted in Vojvodina's
            predominantly Slovak localities, most locals do not regard this training as=

            particularly useful, since the teaching-staff is larger in number than alre=
            ady
            required and most lectures, except some practice classes organized in
            Slovak, are held in Serbian.
            Due to financial problems persist. The library of the Department for
            SlovakLanguage and Literature at the University of Novi Sad, for
            instance, has hardly acquired any new reading material over the past
            ten years.


            Further if your surnames were Lutheran religion I don't expect they
            are listed in this book of surnames.

            According to church records, there are approximately 50,000 Lutherans
            in the Slovak Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Serbia.
            About 76 percent of the ethnic Slovaks living in Vojvodina are Lutherans.

            http://jankolar.tripod.com/bp.htm

            Frank K



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Vladimir Bohinc
            Dear Janet, After the Turks were defeated, life for peasants in Slovakia (territory) was very very hard, so many left South, to settle on flat land, which was
            Message 5 of 14 , May 1, 2004
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              Dear Janet,
              After the Turks were defeated, life for peasants in Slovakia (territory) was very very hard, so many left South, to settle on flat land, which was devastated by the retreating Turks and left practically without people.
              Vladimir

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Janet Kozlay
              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 9:03 PM
              Subject: RE: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


              Frank, I find your comment about Lutheran Slovaks quite interesting. I know
              that there was a considerable pocket of Lutherans in the northern part of
              Old Hungary, now Slovakia, and in fact they are still a significant minority
              in that region. Is there some reason that Lutheran Slovaks would have moved
              to Serbia? Why, for that matter, was there a migration from Slovakia to
              Serbia at all? (Trying to understand the history.)

              Janet





              To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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              Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
              http://www.eset.sk


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • William F Brna
              Janet, I forgot to mention that there is a book available in the family History Center titled, Petrovec . I had ordered the microfilm but when I found that
              Message 6 of 14 , May 1, 2004
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                Janet,

                I forgot to mention that there is a book available in the family History
                Center titled, "Petrovec". I had ordered the microfilm but when I found
                that it was in Serbian, it was of no value to me since I neither speak
                nor write Serbian.

                William F. Brna

                On Sat, 1 May 2004 15:03:19 -0400 "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@...>
                writes:
                > Frank, I find your comment about Lutheran Slovaks quite interesting.
                > I know
                > that there was a considerable pocket of Lutherans in the northern
                > part of
                > Old Hungary, now Slovakia, and in fact they are still a significant
                > minority
                > in that region. Is there some reason that Lutheran Slovaks would
                > have moved
                > to Serbia? Why, for that matter, was there a migration from
                > Slovakia to
                > Serbia at all? (Trying to understand the history.)
                >
                > Janet
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank
                > email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Janet Kozlay
                Thank you, William. Very interesting history indeed. My husband s ancestors (Ruttkays and Kossuths) were Lutheran from the Martin/Vrutky area, at least around
                Message 7 of 14 , May 1, 2004
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                  Thank you, William. Very interesting history indeed.

                  My husband's ancestors (Ruttkays and Kossuths) were Lutheran from the
                  Martin/Vrutky area, at least around the late 18th and early 19th centuries.
                  In turn, some from these families appeared to have migrated south, to the
                  Hungarian Plain, probably mid-to-late 1700s to early 1800s. There seem to
                  have been many patterns of migration at work, probably for as many reasons,
                  but I have not run across any comprehensive discussion of them. I have only
                  seen one article that discussed Serbian migration to the Budapest area
                  during the 1600s as they fled from the Turkish invasion.

                  Thank you for the history lesson.

                  Janet


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: William F Brna [mailto:wfbrna@...]
                  Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 3:11 PM
                  To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466

                  Janet,

                  About the mddle of the 18th century, two brothers who owned land in what
                  is now Serbia went to Orava in northwestern Slovakia and asked for people
                  to settle on this land and build a town. Evidently, conditions were so
                  bad in Orava that many people took them up on the offer. They founded a
                  town, called Petrovec. Most of these people were originally Catholic but
                  they had problems with the authorities who were mostly Orthodox. Rather
                  than put up with the difficulties many of them became Lutheran, since
                  there were already Lutherans in the area and they were accepted. After
                  about a hundred years some of the families returned to Slovakia, but did
                  not wish to return to Orava so they settled in central Slovakia in
                  Martin, Vrutky and Liptovsky Mikulas. In 1924, the president of
                  Czechoslovakia asked Slovaks who were living outside Czechoslovakia to
                  return. Again, several of the families did. Pavel Brna returned and
                  settled in Miloslavov on the Czechoslovak-Hungarian border. His
                  descendants still live there. This information was related to me by Jan
                  Brna, one oif Pavel's grandsons who now lives in Canada. I had the
                  privilege of accompanying Jan to visit his younger brother, Miloslav and
                  his family, in September, 2001.

                  The people who went to Petrovec from Orava retained their Slovak
                  heritage, language and customs.

                  William F. Brna


                  On Sat, 1 May 2004 15:03:19 -0400 "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@...>
                  writes:
                  > Frank, I find your comment about Lutheran Slovaks quite interesting.
                  > I know
                  > that there was a considerable pocket of Lutherans in the northern
                  > part of
                  > Old Hungary, now Slovakia, and in fact they are still a significant
                  > minority
                  > in that region. Is there some reason that Lutheran Slovaks would
                  > have moved
                  > to Serbia? Why, for that matter, was there a migration from
                  > Slovakia to
                  > Serbia at all? (Trying to understand the history.)
                  >
                  > Janet
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank
                  > email to SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                  http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                  SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Janet Kozlay
                  Yes, Vladimir, but we re talking about noble families here. What about them? Why would they have migrated south? Janet ... From: Vladimir Bohinc
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 1, 2004
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                    Yes, Vladimir, but we're talking about noble families here. What about
                    them? Why would they have migrated south?

                    Janet


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
                    Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 3:30 PM
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466

                    Dear Janet,
                    After the Turks were defeated, life for peasants in Slovakia (territory) was
                    very very hard, so many left South, to settle on flat land, which was
                    devastated by the retreating Turks and left practically without people.
                    Vladimir

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Janet Kozlay
                    To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 9:03 PM
                    Subject: RE: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


                    Frank, I find your comment about Lutheran Slovaks quite interesting. I
                    know
                    that there was a considerable pocket of Lutherans in the northern part of
                    Old Hungary, now Slovakia, and in fact they are still a significant
                    minority
                    in that region. Is there some reason that Lutheran Slovaks would have
                    moved
                    to Serbia? Why, for that matter, was there a migration from Slovakia to
                    Serbia at all? (Trying to understand the history.)

                    Janet





                    To unsubscribe from this group, go to
                    http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                    SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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                    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                    __________ Informacia od NOD32 1.722 (20040419) __________

                    Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
                    http://www.eset.sk


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    To unsubscribe from this group, go to
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                  • Frank
                    ... WWW. How much is true and how much is Serbian propaganda. Didn t write it just read it. Expected perhaps a Potemkin village like elaborate fake village
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 1, 2004
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                      --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@n...>
                      wrote:
                      > Dear Frank,
                      > Now I have to say this word again;
                      > I was there for two days and met many people. They all speak slovak
                      among themselves. They feel very much slovak.
                      > Since when a surname tells a religion?
                      > The main church there , which is pretty large is lutheran and I was
                      studying lutheran church records and even met the lutheran
                      bishop.
                      > The RC church is very small.
                      > Besides that, there is also a religious sect called Nazareni, which
                      might be similar to the Amish. They have no church books,
                      which
                      made me some trouble.
                      > The book is written in Slovak ISBN 973-9292-49-6, compiled by
                      Dr.Michael Dudok " Priezviska Slovakov v Juhoslavii"
                      > I know
                      > Serbian,
                      > Croatian,
                      > Slovenian,
                      > Slovak,
                      > English
                      > German
                      > Russian
                      > Polish
                      > some French
                      > some Italian
                      > some Spanish
                      > A Slovenian never expects a foreigner to understand slovenian, so
                      we just automatically switch to a foreign language when we have
                      to do with one. English speaking people are not aware of this luxury
                      they enjoy. They just hope, everybody will understand them, so
                      there are very few, who care to learn a foreign language.
                      > Kako ste is not realy very slovenian. Kako se imate?
                      > Some of you have expressed interest in obtaining a status of
                      expatriate Slovak. I can tell you, Slovaks in Backi Petrovac are
                      doing
                      this en masse. I was wittnessing many people, who on one side brought
                      their applications to the office of Matica Slovenska, which is
                      helping them in this affair, and then on the other side in the parish
                      office, where some of them had to find their GGparents, which was
                      needed for this application.
                      > Regards,
                      > Vladimir

                      Dear Vladimir,

                      That is a fantastic language knowledge !
                      Yes. And a Czech would say Jak se máte ?
                      Found imati in my Croatian dictionary and I now see Kako se imate ?
                      listed under iméti in the Slovene dictionary.
                      Still have conflict in what I have read about Slovaks in Bac^ki Petrovac on=
                      WWW.
                      How much is true and how much is Serbian propaganda.
                      Didn't write it just read it.
                      Expected perhaps a Potemkin village like elaborate fake village
                      constructed for Catherine the Great's tour of the Ukraine.
                      NATO and US bombed Serbia back in 1999.

                      PRO
                      (transliterated) from both Slovak and Serbian languages

                      "Petrovac had first appeared in the 13th century when Petrovac is
                      mentioned as a church parish belonging to Backa Zupanija. Later that
                      name is changed into Petrovac.
                      Its first inhabitants were the Hungarians and Serbs. In the first half
                      of the 18th century (1745) the Slovaks settle here. Since then
                      Petrovac developed so that it represents cultural, economic, and
                      political
                      center of the Slovaks in these parts.
                      According to listing in 1992 year in B.P. live 7229 inhabitants,
                      out of which 88% are the Slovaks, then 4% the Serbs, the remaining 8%
                      are other nationalities. (before end of the war between the Serbs and the C=
                      roats)
                      Agriculture is the most important economic activity based on the
                      production of field crops (wheat, corn, broom weed, sugar beet, hop),
                      cattle, breeding and poulty and vegetable crops. Besides agriculture
                      there is also some industry manufacture, metal and chemical.
                      Manufacture of wood civil engineering, printing activities, etc."

                      According to church records, there are approximately 50,000 Lutherans
                      in the Slovak Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in
                      Serbia.
                      About 76 percent of the ethnic Slovaks living in Vojvodina are
                      Lutherans.
                      Lutheranism was brought into this area by Slovak and German settlers
                      in the first half of the 18th century, who were fleeing from the
                      counter-reformation movement in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
                      They had guaranteed religious freedom in Vojvodina, which was freshly
                      liberated from the Turks and mostly unpopulated at that time.
                      The church is among the main reasons for preservation of Slovak
                      national identity in Vojvodina for more than 250 years.

                      CON

                      Vojvodinian Slovaks

                      Moreover, the offspring of ethnically mixed marriages in some
                      predominantly Slovak settlements (e.g. Bac^ki Petrovac) often have
                      not demonstrated a particular interest in being taught in the Slovak
                      language.
                      As a matter of fact, the Slovak-language grammar school in Bac^ki
                      Petrovac and in Kovacica currently suffer both from a lack of
                      adequate teaching staff and from a shortage in pupils interested in
                      taking
                      classes in the Slovak
                      language. What is even more notable is that at the gymnasium of Stara
                      Pazova (i.e. an area where over 7,000 ethnic Slovaks live) most
                      subjects are taught in Serbian.
                      On the other hand, there exist certain problems with the training of
                      Slovak-language teachers, especially at the level of elementary
                      education.
                      In Vojvodina, the task of training elementary-level teachers is
                      assigned to the Faculty for Elementary Teaching in Bac^ki Petrovac
                      (i.e. an outpost of the Sombor-based Faculty for Elementary School
                      Teachers).
                      However, according to an opinion poll conducted in Vojvodina's
                      predominantly Slovak localities, most locals do not regard this
                      training as particularly useful, since the teaching-staff is larger
                      n number than already required and most lectures, except some
                      practice classes organized in Slovak, are held in Serbian.
                      Due to financial problems persist. The library of the Department for
                      Slovak Language and Literature at the University of Novi Sad, for
                      instance, has hardly acquired any new reading material over the
                      past ten years.

                      Roman Catholics are usually in Croatia and Slovenija.
                      The primary faith in Serbia is Orthodox Christian, with 65 percent,
                      followed by Muslim (19 percent), Roman Catholic (4 percent),
                      Protestant (1 percent), and other (11 percent).

                      My conclusion was that if a surname researcher asked for surnames
                      listed which must be census related in your book they would only be listed=

                      if surnames practiced Lutheran religion.
                      Most surname bearers from Slovakia were R.C. and a few were G.C.
                      religion.
                      Today, Slovakia is 60 % R.C., 10 % atheist, 8 % Protestant , 4 %
                      Orthodox and 18 % other.
                      Before WW I the R.C. percentage was much higher.

                      Regards

                      Frank K

                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Frank
                      > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 8:25 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466
                      >
                      >
                      > ahoj List
                      >
                      > Just downloaded [S-R] Digest number 1466 to my printer and ran out
                      > of fpaper.
                      > 20 messages and 59 pages long !.
                      > Is there an invisible chain letter running ?
                      > Mainly Yahoo! Group Links and an antivirus program from ISP
                      > www.eset.sk.
                      > repeat repeat .............
                      >
                      > I had meant to ask Vladimir B in what language his book of
                      surnames
                      > from Bac^ka Petrovac was written.
                      > Slovak or Serbian ?
                      > Does Vladimir also know Serbian ?
                      >
                      > Ako sa más^ ? Slovak
                      >
                      > Jak se máte ? Czech
                      >
                      > Kako ste ? Croatian/Slovene (Roman)
                      >
                      > K A K O C T E ? Serbian/Bulgarian (Cyrillic)
                      > (k ah k o s t eh)
                      >
                      > Vojvodinian Slovaks
                      >
                      > The offspring of ethnically mixed marriages in some predominantly
                      > Slovak settlements (e.g. Bac^ki Petrovac) often have not
                      demonstrated
                      > a particular interest in being taught in the Slovak language.
                      > As a matter of fact, the Slovak-language grammar school in Bac^ki
                      > Petrovac and in Kovacica currently suffer both from a lack of
                      adequate
                      > teaching staff and from a shortage in pupils interested in taking
                      > classes in the Slovak language.
                      > What is even more notable is that at the gymnasium of Stara
                      > Pazova (i.e. an area where over 7,000 ethnic Slovaks live) most
                      > subjects are taught in Serbian.
                      > On the other hand, there exist certain problems with the training
                      of
                      > Slovak-language teachers, especially at the level of elementary
                      education.=
                      >
                      > In Vojvodina, the task of training elementary-level teachers is
                      > assigned to the Faculty for Elementary Teaching in Bac^ki
                      Petrovac (i.e. a=
                      > n
                      > outpost of the Sombor-based Faculty for Elementary School
                      Teachers).
                      > However, according to an opinion poll conducted in Vojvodina's
                      > predominantly Slovak localities, most locals do not regard this
                      training as=
                      >
                      > particularly useful, since the teaching-staff is larger in number
                      than alre=
                      > ady
                      > required and most lectures, except some practice classes
                      organized in
                      > Slovak, are held in Serbian.
                      > Due to financial problems persist. The library of the Department
                      for
                      > SlovakLanguage and Literature at the University of Novi Sad, for
                      > instance, has hardly acquired any new reading material over the
                      past
                      > ten years.
                      >
                      >
                      > Further if your surnames were Lutheran religion I don't expect
                      they
                      > are listed in this book of surnames.
                      >
                      > According to church records, there are approximately 50,000
                      Lutherans
                      > in the Slovak Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in
                      Serbia.
                      > About 76 percent of the ethnic Slovaks living in Vojvodina are
                      Lutherans.
                      >
                      > http://jankolar.tripod.com/bp.htm
                      >
                      > Frank K
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://w
                      ww.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                      SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
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                      >
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                      >
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                      >
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                      >
                      > __________ Informacia od NOD32 1.722 (20040419) __________
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                      > Tato sprava bola preverena antivirusovym systemom NOD32.
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                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Vladimir Bohinc
                      Dear Janet, There were many levels of Nobility. Some Nobles ended up as beggars too. I have seen that in the records by myself. You can safely assume, that
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 2, 2004
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                        Dear Janet,
                        There were many levels of Nobility. Some Nobles ended up as beggars too. I have seen that in the records by myself.
                        You can safely assume, that they were migrating South for economic reasons.
                        It is almost certain, that up in Slovakia, they did not have any large Estate, which would maybe hold them there. They were only descendants of a distant Nobleman and subject to economic influence as anybody else.
                        Vladimir


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Janet Kozlay
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 11:48 PM
                        Subject: RE: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


                        Yes, Vladimir, but we're talking about noble families here. What about
                        them? Why would they have migrated south?

                        Janet


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
                        Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 3:30 PM
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466

                        Dear Janet,
                        After the Turks were defeated, life for peasants in Slovakia (territory) was
                        very very hard, so many left South, to settle on flat land, which was
                        devastated by the retreating Turks and left practically without people.
                        Vladimir

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Janet Kozlay
                        To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 9:03 PM
                        Subject: RE: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


                        Frank, I find your comment about Lutheran Slovaks quite interesting. I
                        know
                        that there was a considerable pocket of Lutherans in the northern part of
                        Old Hungary, now Slovakia, and in fact they are still a significant
                        minority
                        in that region. Is there some reason that Lutheran Slovaks would have
                        moved
                        to Serbia? Why, for that matter, was there a migration from Slovakia to
                        Serbia at all? (Trying to understand the history.)

                        Janet





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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Vladimir Bohinc
                        Dear Frank, You have some good dictionnaries. But you see, a machine can not always find the right word for certain situation. Re pros and cons; in general,
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 2, 2004
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                          Dear Frank,
                          You have some good dictionnaries. But you see, a machine can not always find the right word for certain situation.
                          Re pros and cons;
                          in general, every nation here tries to prove, that members of their ethnicity were there first. This is a material for ethernal disputes, because some things can not be proven.
                          Does not make much sense to get involved.
                          Fact is what I wrote about the Slovaks in BP before. Maybe in 200 years, there will be no more.
                          Vladimir

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Frank
                          To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 2:52 AM
                          Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


                          --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@n...>
                          wrote:
                          > Dear Frank,
                          > Now I have to say this word again;
                          > I was there for two days and met many people. They all speak slovak
                          among themselves. They feel very much slovak.
                          > Since when a surname tells a religion?
                          > The main church there , which is pretty large is lutheran and I was
                          studying lutheran church records and even met the lutheran
                          bishop.
                          > The RC church is very small.
                          > Besides that, there is also a religious sect called Nazareni, which
                          might be similar to the Amish. They have no church books,
                          which
                          made me some trouble.
                          > The book is written in Slovak ISBN 973-9292-49-6, compiled by
                          Dr.Michael Dudok " Priezviska Slovakov v Juhoslavii"
                          > I know
                          > Serbian,
                          > Croatian,
                          > Slovenian,
                          > Slovak,
                          > English
                          > German
                          > Russian
                          > Polish
                          > some French
                          > some Italian
                          > some Spanish
                          > A Slovenian never expects a foreigner to understand slovenian, so
                          we just automatically switch to a foreign language when we have
                          to do with one. English speaking people are not aware of this luxury
                          they enjoy. They just hope, everybody will understand them, so
                          there are very few, who care to learn a foreign language.
                          > Kako ste is not realy very slovenian. Kako se imate?
                          > Some of you have expressed interest in obtaining a status of
                          expatriate Slovak. I can tell you, Slovaks in Backi Petrovac are
                          doing
                          this en masse. I was wittnessing many people, who on one side brought
                          their applications to the office of Matica Slovenska, which is
                          helping them in this affair, and then on the other side in the parish
                          office, where some of them had to find their GGparents, which was
                          needed for this application.
                          > Regards,
                          > Vladimir

                          Dear Vladimir,

                          That is a fantastic language knowledge !
                          Yes. And a Czech would say Jak se máte ?
                          Found imati in my Croatian dictionary and I now see Kako se imate ?
                          listed under iméti in the Slovene dictionary.
                          Still have conflict in what I have read about Slovaks in Bac^ki Petrovac on=
                          WWW.
                          How much is true and how much is Serbian propaganda.
                          Didn't write it just read it.
                          Expected perhaps a Potemkin village like elaborate fake village
                          constructed for Catherine the Great's tour of the Ukraine.
                          NATO and US bombed Serbia back in 1999.

                          PRO
                          (transliterated) from both Slovak and Serbian languages

                          "Petrovac had first appeared in the 13th century when Petrovac is
                          mentioned as a church parish belonging to Backa Zupanija. Later that
                          name is changed into Petrovac.
                          Its first inhabitants were the Hungarians and Serbs. In the first half
                          of the 18th century (1745) the Slovaks settle here. Since then
                          Petrovac developed so that it represents cultural, economic, and
                          political
                          center of the Slovaks in these parts.
                          According to listing in 1992 year in B.P. live 7229 inhabitants,
                          out of which 88% are the Slovaks, then 4% the Serbs, the remaining 8%
                          are other nationalities. (before end of the war between the Serbs and the C=
                          roats)
                          Agriculture is the most important economic activity based on the
                          production of field crops (wheat, corn, broom weed, sugar beet, hop),
                          cattle, breeding and poulty and vegetable crops. Besides agriculture
                          there is also some industry manufacture, metal and chemical.
                          Manufacture of wood civil engineering, printing activities, etc."

                          According to church records, there are approximately 50,000 Lutherans
                          in the Slovak Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in
                          Serbia.
                          About 76 percent of the ethnic Slovaks living in Vojvodina are
                          Lutherans.
                          Lutheranism was brought into this area by Slovak and German settlers
                          in the first half of the 18th century, who were fleeing from the
                          counter-reformation movement in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
                          They had guaranteed religious freedom in Vojvodina, which was freshly
                          liberated from the Turks and mostly unpopulated at that time.
                          The church is among the main reasons for preservation of Slovak
                          national identity in Vojvodina for more than 250 years.

                          CON

                          Vojvodinian Slovaks

                          Moreover, the offspring of ethnically mixed marriages in some
                          predominantly Slovak settlements (e.g. Bac^ki Petrovac) often have
                          not demonstrated a particular interest in being taught in the Slovak
                          language.
                          As a matter of fact, the Slovak-language grammar school in Bac^ki
                          Petrovac and in Kovacica currently suffer both from a lack of
                          adequate teaching staff and from a shortage in pupils interested in
                          taking
                          classes in the Slovak
                          language. What is even more notable is that at the gymnasium of Stara
                          Pazova (i.e. an area where over 7,000 ethnic Slovaks live) most
                          subjects are taught in Serbian.
                          On the other hand, there exist certain problems with the training of
                          Slovak-language teachers, especially at the level of elementary
                          education.
                          In Vojvodina, the task of training elementary-level teachers is
                          assigned to the Faculty for Elementary Teaching in Bac^ki Petrovac
                          (i.e. an outpost of the Sombor-based Faculty for Elementary School
                          Teachers).
                          However, according to an opinion poll conducted in Vojvodina's
                          predominantly Slovak localities, most locals do not regard this
                          training as particularly useful, since the teaching-staff is larger
                          n number than already required and most lectures, except some
                          practice classes organized in Slovak, are held in Serbian.
                          Due to financial problems persist. The library of the Department for
                          Slovak Language and Literature at the University of Novi Sad, for
                          instance, has hardly acquired any new reading material over the
                          past ten years.

                          Roman Catholics are usually in Croatia and Slovenija.
                          The primary faith in Serbia is Orthodox Christian, with 65 percent,
                          followed by Muslim (19 percent), Roman Catholic (4 percent),
                          Protestant (1 percent), and other (11 percent).

                          My conclusion was that if a surname researcher asked for surnames
                          listed which must be census related in your book they would only be listed=

                          if surnames practiced Lutheran religion.
                          Most surname bearers from Slovakia were R.C. and a few were G.C.
                          religion.
                          Today, Slovakia is 60 % R.C., 10 % atheist, 8 % Protestant , 4 %
                          Orthodox and 18 % other.
                          Before WW I the R.C. percentage was much higher.

                          Regards

                          Frank K

                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Frank
                          > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 8:25 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466
                          >
                          >
                          > ahoj List
                          >
                          > Just downloaded [S-R] Digest number 1466 to my printer and ran out
                          > of fpaper.
                          > 20 messages and 59 pages long !.
                          > Is there an invisible chain letter running ?
                          > Mainly Yahoo! Group Links and an antivirus program from ISP
                          > www.eset.sk.
                          > repeat repeat .............
                          >
                          > I had meant to ask Vladimir B in what language his book of
                          surnames
                          > from Bac^ka Petrovac was written.
                          > Slovak or Serbian ?
                          > Does Vladimir also know Serbian ?
                          >
                          > Ako sa más^ ? Slovak
                          >
                          > Jak se máte ? Czech
                          >
                          > Kako ste ? Croatian/Slovene (Roman)
                          >
                          > K A K O C T E ? Serbian/Bulgarian (Cyrillic)
                          > (k ah k o s t eh)
                          >
                          > Vojvodinian Slovaks
                          >
                          > The offspring of ethnically mixed marriages in some predominantly
                          > Slovak settlements (e.g. Bac^ki Petrovac) often have not
                          demonstrated
                          > a particular interest in being taught in the Slovak language.
                          > As a matter of fact, the Slovak-language grammar school in Bac^ki
                          > Petrovac and in Kovacica currently suffer both from a lack of
                          adequate
                          > teaching staff and from a shortage in pupils interested in taking
                          > classes in the Slovak language.
                          > What is even more notable is that at the gymnasium of Stara
                          > Pazova (i.e. an area where over 7,000 ethnic Slovaks live) most
                          > subjects are taught in Serbian.
                          > On the other hand, there exist certain problems with the training
                          of
                          > Slovak-language teachers, especially at the level of elementary
                          education.=
                          >
                          > In Vojvodina, the task of training elementary-level teachers is
                          > assigned to the Faculty for Elementary Teaching in Bac^ki
                          Petrovac (i.e. a=
                          > n
                          > outpost of the Sombor-based Faculty for Elementary School
                          Teachers).
                          > However, according to an opinion poll conducted in Vojvodina's
                          > predominantly Slovak localities, most locals do not regard this
                          training as=
                          >
                          > particularly useful, since the teaching-staff is larger in number
                          than alre=
                          > ady
                          > required and most lectures, except some practice classes
                          organized in
                          > Slovak, are held in Serbian.
                          > Due to financial problems persist. The library of the Department
                          for
                          > SlovakLanguage and Literature at the University of Novi Sad, for
                          > instance, has hardly acquired any new reading material over the
                          past
                          > ten years.
                          >
                          >
                          > Further if your surnames were Lutheran religion I don't expect
                          they
                          > are listed in this book of surnames.
                          >
                          > According to church records, there are approximately 50,000
                          Lutherans
                          > in the Slovak Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in
                          Serbia.
                          > About 76 percent of the ethnic Slovaks living in Vojvodina are
                          Lutherans.
                          >
                          > http://jankolar.tripod.com/bp.htm
                          >
                          > Frank K
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, go to http://w
                          ww.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
                          SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                          >
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • tarzantu2@aol.com
                          In a message dated 5/2/2004 4:05:08 AM Central Daylight Time, konekta@nm.psg.sk writes: You have some good dictionnaries. But you see, a machine can not always
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 2, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a message dated 5/2/2004 4:05:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
                            konekta@... writes:
                            You have some good dictionnaries. But you see, a machine can not always find
                            the right word for certain situation
                            Vladimir's words are so true. One can have limited success with an
                            English/Slovak dictionary, as well as an English/Slovak or Slovak/English machine
                            translation site. Machines can get some things right, but just as often get it
                            wrong because it does not have the ability to reason, to understand the intent of
                            the words to be translated.

                            My wife and I retired to deep south Texas, along the Mexican border, and are
                            trying to learn Spanish. We have all kinds of dictionaries, translation
                            sites, and other learning materials. We are learning that you can translate an
                            English word into Spanish, but it isn't necessarily a word that is used in
                            Spanish, and of course the Spanish language varies throughout the countries of North
                            and South America, as well with countries like Spain, Puerto Rico, etc.

                            You need to learn the culture of a country or of its diverse people to learn
                            the language. The way things are said in English do not necessarily translate
                            into a foreign language and vice versa. But one could make themselves
                            understood in instances. For example, in English we say "I'm hungry." In Spanish
                            they say "I have hunger." We say "How old are you" and they say "How many
                            years do you have." If it's hot out and we say "I'm hot," they say "Tengo calor"
                            which means "I have heat," but if you say "estoy caliente" which also
                            translates to "I'm hot," however, it's meaning is entirely different. It means "I'm
                            hot" as a person, not because of the temperature. As a result, one can mean to
                            say one thing but it can turn out to be something entirely different.

                            The bottom line is learning the culture, how people speak, plus utilizing all
                            available learning tools. Much better understanding and translations will be
                            the result.

                            Ray



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Vladimir Bohinc
                            Dear Ray, When I started learning spanish the first thing my friend warned me about was Tengo calor :-) Thank you, Vladimir ... From: tarzantu2@aol.com To:
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 2, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear Ray,
                              When I started learning spanish the first thing my friend warned me about was "Tengo calor" :-)
                              Thank you,
                              Vladimir

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: tarzantu2@...
                              To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 7:51 PM
                              Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


                              In a message dated 5/2/2004 4:05:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
                              konekta@... writes:
                              You have some good dictionnaries. But you see, a machine can not always find
                              the right word for certain situation
                              Vladimir's words are so true. One can have limited success with an
                              English/Slovak dictionary, as well as an English/Slovak or Slovak/English machine
                              translation site. Machines can get some things right, but just as often get it
                              wrong because it does not have the ability to reason, to understand the intent of
                              the words to be translated.

                              My wife and I retired to deep south Texas, along the Mexican border, and are
                              trying to learn Spanish. We have all kinds of dictionaries, translation
                              sites, and other learning materials. We are learning that you can translate an
                              English word into Spanish, but it isn't necessarily a word that is used in
                              Spanish, and of course the Spanish language varies throughout the countries of North
                              and South America, as well with countries like Spain, Puerto Rico, etc.

                              You need to learn the culture of a country or of its diverse people to learn
                              the language. The way things are said in English do not necessarily translate
                              into a foreign language and vice versa. But one could make themselves
                              understood in instances. For example, in English we say "I'm hungry." In Spanish
                              they say "I have hunger." We say "How old are you" and they say "How many
                              years do you have." If it's hot out and we say "I'm hot," they say "Tengo calor"
                              which means "I have heat," but if you say "estoy caliente" which also
                              translates to "I'm hot," however, it's meaning is entirely different. It means "I'm
                              hot" as a person, not because of the temperature. As a result, one can mean to
                              say one thing but it can turn out to be something entirely different.

                              The bottom line is learning the culture, how people speak, plus utilizing all
                              available learning tools. Much better understanding and translations will be
                              the result.

                              Ray



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                            • Janet Kozlay
                              Thanks again for your input, Vladimir. I have noted with some surprise that the 19th-century Lutheran church records for Zaturcie, in Turiec, were almost
                              Message 14 of 14 , May 2, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thanks again for your input, Vladimir.

                                I have noted with some surprise that the 19th-century Lutheran church
                                records for Zaturcie, in Turiec, were almost entirely filled with nobles.
                                It made me wonder how a region could support so many noble families--all of
                                whom intermarried at an alarming rate. I wonder if this, too, could be a
                                reason some decided to strike out for newer areas. They were getting just a
                                bit too inbred. On the other hand, my husband's great-great grandfather,
                                after having moved to the Hungarian Plain, went back north around 1825 to
                                marry a girl from the area.

                                Janet


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
                                Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 3:50 AM
                                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466

                                Dear Janet,
                                There were many levels of Nobility. Some Nobles ended up as beggars too. I
                                have seen that in the records by myself.
                                You can safely assume, that they were migrating South for economic reasons.
                                It is almost certain, that up in Slovakia, they did not have any large
                                Estate, which would maybe hold them there. They were only descendants of a
                                distant Nobleman and subject to economic influence as anybody else.
                                Vladimir


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Janet Kozlay
                                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 11:48 PM
                                Subject: RE: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


                                Yes, Vladimir, but we're talking about noble families here. What about
                                them? Why would they have migrated south?

                                Janet


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
                                Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 3:30 PM
                                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [S-R] Digest Number 1466

                                Dear Janet,
                                After the Turks were defeated, life for peasants in Slovakia (territory)
                                was
                                very very hard, so many left South, to settle on flat land, which was
                                devastated by the retreating Turks and left practically without people.
                                Vladimir

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Janet Kozlay
                                To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 9:03 PM
                                Subject: RE: [S-R] Digest Number 1466


                                Frank, I find your comment about Lutheran Slovaks quite interesting. I
                                know
                                that there was a considerable pocket of Lutherans in the northern part
                                of
                                Old Hungary, now Slovakia, and in fact they are still a significant
                                minority
                                in that region. Is there some reason that Lutheran Slovaks would have
                                moved
                                to Serbia? Why, for that matter, was there a migration from Slovakia to
                                Serbia at all? (Trying to understand the history.)

                                Janet





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